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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> more power, calling Greg 650 /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1090070666 Message started by klx650sm2002 on 07/17/04 at 06:24:26 |
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Title: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/17/04 at 06:24:26 Hey Greg, I think You want to look at the Suzuki LS650 Savage Homepage (heise-workstations). The title is more power and the guy posting it is Pierre. I hope You think he means what I think he means ;D |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by koiroy on 07/18/04 at 04:31:03 ::)Just like here. Great point for valuable tech info. They're having a problem with child porn advertising. Hope it doesn't break this firewall. :o |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by Greg_650 on 07/18/04 at 04:34:29 klx650sm2002 wrote:
I think You mean what He means I think ::) Yep, opening the exhaust is what I think he means, but I still don't know about that flat ridge along the top with a possible oil passage inside...I'll send you another picture. |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by Greg_650 on 07/18/04 at 06:10:04 Oops...I'd send you a picture if I had your address...you'd better come my way ::) |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/18/04 at 06:45:23 I think can get My e-mail now (click on name) I didn't mean to put a stop on it. When Pierre talked about the "V" I thought He meant the cross section of the flat part in the top of the port, wishfull thinking perhaps :-[ |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/18/04 at 07:37:47 I see what You mean :o so the best that can be hoped for is to take 1 to 2 mm off it and be happy. Is there anything that could be done with an external oil line ???. Clive W |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by Greg_650 on 07/18/04 at 10:04:57 klx650sm2002 wrote:
I guess you see the oil passage in the picture...Interesting question about the oil line, too. What I will do this winter is to measure the depth of the oil passage from both sides and guess at where it really is....it flows down the left front head stud. I think. Have you seen the exhaust port? Want to? |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/18/04 at 10:17:59 I have seen photos (from You) of the std exhaust port, but would like to see more ;D Clive W |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/21/04 at 11:02:53 Has anyone tried advancing their ignition timing, like most jap bikes it is probably retarded. Gains would be throtle responce and acceleration. Clive W |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/21/04 at 11:05:52 Ignition advance may go hand in hand with higher octain fuel but not definately. Clive W |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by Greg_650 on 07/21/04 at 14:22:24 klx650sm2002 wrote:
The CDI pickup is in a fixed position at the rotor, but with a little study and work it could be adjusted. The downside is buying a new gasket and oil each time you changed it :-[ |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/22/04 at 05:10:02 Same problem with My KLX. Clive W |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/25/04 at 05:57:30 I'm intending to up the compression ratio in winter, from 9.5 to 10.5 = 4 to 5 % more torque across most of the rev range. Has anyone tried this on their Savage, with what results ??? |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/25/04 at 06:01:02 Forgot to say that it is my KLX650 that I'm increaseing the C.R. on. |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by Greg_650 on 07/25/04 at 08:09:24 It can be done on the Savage with a custom piston. But.... Don't you need to change your cam and your ignition timing? |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/25/04 at 09:29:36 Ignition timing must be changed (assuming it's right before) and it would tolerate a bigger cam. Clive W |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/25/04 at 09:45:39 I was thinking it was only going to be skiming the top of the cylinder i.e. cheap. the guys on the KLX site havn't come up with anything yet. That would make more sence but you people are more friendly. Clive W |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/25/04 at 10:02:04 Is 1mm enough squish clearance ??? |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/25/04 at 10:14:49 1mm is what i ran in my RD350LC (64*54) So I was thinking maybe I need more with such a big cylinder ??? I'm rambling on again. The 250LC ran .6mm squish (54*54) Clive W |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by Greg_650 on 07/25/04 at 11:29:46 Are you shaving the head or the cylinder? |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/25/04 at 13:37:54 I'm thinking of skiming the cylinder to reduce the squish clearance, if that doesn't give 10.5 to 1 i'll have to skim the head too. Valve to piston clearance could become a problem but the japs usually big tolerances. Still have no idea of squish clearance ??? |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by Greg_650 on 07/26/04 at 03:06:52 How will that effect cam chain tension? |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/26/04 at 06:55:55 The run for the top chain is 1.74mm shorter which is much less than the the service limit so a chain won't last as long but I can live with that, need to slot the sprockets to get back to std. timing. The inlet is quite retarded so it might be worth some grunt to advance that up a bit. Clive W |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/26/04 at 07:18:44 0.87mm is the amount that has to come off the cylinder to give 10.5:1 CR Clive W |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/26/04 at 07:43:23 I made a mistake it's 1.025mm to come to come off the cylinder so is 2.05mm on the chain run but still well in. What have I been smoking ??? Clive W |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/26/04 at 08:14:41 The 1mm assumes that I don't go below the minimum squish, there's that thing again "squish clearance" Clive W |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by Greg_650 on 07/26/04 at 08:50:49 Does your piston have valve clearance in the top? |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/26/04 at 10:09:29 Piston has small cutaways, you know I want to advance the inlet cam, cutaways will need to be measured anyway. I would like to do this stuff now but like You I think I'll wait 'till winter as I don't want to be off the road, wasting the good weather. The other option is to buy a second engine which is a serious consideration. VN1500 Nomad piston gives 678cc's but I dont know about compression.I don't really go over 100mph much (twisty roads) but want to get there quickly so could probably go 11:1 even 11.5:1 water cooled!. My mate Tony is tring to get Me to buy a pair cams, I dont know, I like low down torque and at the moment it drives from 2500 to 7500rpm. The extra capacity and compression will move power down the rev range so mild cams might be in order. Looking at external components I'm very happy with the Keihin FCR41 and 41.45mm i.d. header with matching silencer. Any coments welcome. Clive W |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by Greg_650 on 07/26/04 at 14:03:35 If changing the piston gives you 678 cc, won't that drop your compression? You might could go with an overbore too. I know that the Savage can be punched out to almost 700 cc. At any rate, the new carb and pipe will be needed when you do the rest. |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by PRH111 on 07/27/04 at 00:18:19 Increasing the bore of the piston without any modifications to the combustion chamber will actually increase the compression ratio (more displacement overall but with the same combustion chamber size). Unless the new pistons are built differently. |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/27/04 at 07:19:02 The FCR41 will flow enough gas for over 60bhp and the exhaust is in proportion with it. Clive W |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by Greg_650 on 07/27/04 at 13:00:23 PRH111 wrote:
Good point. I wonder what 700 cc on the Savage would do. |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by Greg_650 on 07/27/04 at 13:02:49 klx650sm2002 wrote:
60 bhp from a 650 single would be fantastic. Most 1200 v-twins only produce ~75 bhp and weight more than twice as much ::) |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/28/04 at 05:29:18 The 60 bhp I quoted was a guy (Nick Hudson) with a XR650R taken out to 680cc gas flowed head, cam, comp and a DOMA pipe(loosing 3bhp low down but gaining 6 bhp on top). He was running a FCR41. When I fitted the FCR41 to My KLX it totally transformed the bike, strongly recomended for a big bore LS ;D |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/28/04 at 05:41:24 For big BHP singles get into the SuperMoto scene :D |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by Greg_650 on 07/28/04 at 08:54:02 klx650sm2002 wrote:
Really? Gotta be better than a Mikuni CV type. Hmmm.... |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/28/04 at 09:08:49 Yes Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 07/28/04 at 10:38:59 A 700cc savage on std combustion chamber volume would give 9.05:1 C.R. well safe. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by Mr650 on 08/12/04 at 22:20:01 :P I have been considering a hop up of the 650. Is pump gas the limiting factor here? Internet tests show the stock Savage about 2 tenths behind the Sportster. I would think that the stock carb and a reground cam along w/ the 11:1 should leave a stock Sporster behind the same amount, provided it stays together. As you approach 11:1 compression, I worry about the detonation, stock studs, additional heat, starting probs and case strength over the long haul. I suspect there may be a reason the Savage has such a low comp. ratio. If the 4 studs are marginal, perhaps a better material ought to be considered. I Don't want to be 2-3 hours out of town and whack open the throttle on a hot summer day and ping it to death up a hill. I guess if you are not going to tour it, there will be lots of fun. I would love to take something like that to test & tune out at the strip. I think I would try to leave the deck hight alone if a high compression piston is out there and avoid the slack chain and O-ring the head. Also if we are going there it's time to start worrying about the 650's marginal oiling system if we plan to ride this thing much. If I hit the lotto, a Savage based "street tracker" w/ injector and alky would be too cool. Imagine the flames/sound as you blast of a light! ;) |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by Greg_650 on 08/13/04 at 02:39:26 Yeah, I too wonder about the strength of materials in the Savage engine...with just 4 large and 2 small studs in the head. But I imagine that since the engine appears to be very bullet proof, that Suzuki didn't engineer the engine with marginal tolerances. That would be more likely in high performance engines that redline in the 13K area, such as the inline 4s...which is a more competetive market. I'd like to make some small changes like shaving a little off the head first....maybe 1 MM. But I really haven't had the time to focus on the work to be done. Higher octane gas would be needed then too. |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 08/13/04 at 10:41:34 A squish band like on a competion two stroke would help reliability with a high compression, don't know what clearance though ??? Clive W |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by wrench on 08/13/04 at 13:20:51 > Yeah, I too wonder about the strength of materials in > the Savage engine...with just 4 large and 2 small > studs in the head. Something else to consider is how an increase in power will affect the ride. Higher compression and/or simply a strong bang from better combustion will surely increase vibration a bunch. Big singles have a lot of mass swinging around inside. For every action there is a reaction. ;-) |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by Greg_650 on 08/14/04 at 04:00:05 True the mechanical counterbalancer is designed for a certain amount of interia type force while offsetting the rotating mass of the piston... I do know that I am going to install a #157.5 main jet today, to see if that helps with the Raask pipe. I also bought a #160 in case I decide to go richer. |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 08/14/04 at 05:16:18 Nice one Greg 650 it's allways good to have a selection of jets. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by klx650sm2002 on 08/14/04 at 05:18:51 Does the standard carb have a removeable main air jet. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by Greg_650 on 08/14/04 at 05:32:29 Yes. On a stock Savage the 2 rear screws on the carb bowl are a bit of a pain to remove, but once all 4 are removed the main jet is accessed with a short flat blade screw driver between the floats. Easy to change. BTW - to easily remove the screws the "second" time, it is good to change the screws to metric allen heads. Then future access to the main jet is really easy :o |
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Title: Re: more power, calling Greg 650 Post by Greg_650 on 08/16/04 at 08:55:59 klx650sm2002 wrote:
Follow-up....I think the #160 main is too big for my setup. I have a flat spot in the throttle at mid-range now. Pulls good above that. I'm gonna put the #157.5 in there now. Must be too rich. |
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