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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Jetting /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1093088307 Message started by klx650sm2002 on 08/21/04 at 04:38:27 |
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Title: Jetting Post by klx650sm2002 on 08/21/04 at 04:38:27 My mate used to race a 500/4 two stroke sidecar and in his jet kit he had jets from 300 to 450 in steps of 5 i.e. 300, 305,310, plus one for each cylinder, plus pilot jets and needles,makes you think doesn't it. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by Greg_650 on 08/21/04 at 04:48:55 I get to be the first to read and the first to reply ;D Think? I think that I need to be a little leaner than the #160 I put in last week. So today it goes down to a #157.5. |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by klx650sm2002 on 08/21/04 at 06:02:06 I've been enjoying trying various combinations of main and main air jets this last two weeks (good fun) but am quite happy with low speed and needle position, I sorted that first. I think Your main air jet will be pressed in like it was on my standard carb, shame really as it increases the fun. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by klx650sm2002 on 08/21/04 at 06:30:06 If You could change your main air jet you could go down to a #150 main and go down a size on the main air jet to give the same mix up top but a little leaner earlier on, it would be interesting to try. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by Mr 650 on 08/22/04 at 18:33:30 I still have the stock air filter. I will be busy the next two weeks, but I should have a freshly coated head pipe by then. I plan to install the new head pipe, Supertrapp w/ all the spacers, fatten the main up w/ the 150 and do the spacer mod. I will report how it goes. I guess I should go make a base pass at test & tune and get a time slip, and then do the mods. I generally prefer a leaner set-up to a fatter one, but hate all the bluing on the stock exhaust. The coated head pipe should not blue and clear up that prob. I was planning to install a K&N replacement filter sometime too. I suspect it may need a 152 main jet for that and have not tracked one down yet. I have seen pictures of the Supertrapp installed on a stock bike and it blued same as a stock pipe and a K&N should lean it back out so I don't want to mess-up the new Supertrapp. Some folks like the psychedelic colors, but I like it to look new. OH yeah, you guys w/ the brand new 650s consider that your pipe will start to blue soon w/ the stock jetting, so re-jet now. If the coating place does a good job of polishing the head pipe, I have another blued but complete exhaust and access to tools to attempt to do the "hartman modification" to a factory muffler this winter. If the mods turn out good, I could have both the head pipe & modified muffler both coated to match. I be honest the Supertrapp likely works better, but a stock system with the hartman mod., and fresh silver coating will look and run better than an oxidized system and Tumi says it sounds great. :P |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by Greg_650 on 08/23/04 at 02:20:06 I ran a #155 for a long time and thought that I was slightly lean still. I ran a #160 all last week, and I was clearly a little rich. Yesterday I put in the #157.5, so we'll see how this work week goes. |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by klx650sm2002 on 08/23/04 at 06:03:06 Nice one Greg, hope it works well for Ya. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by Greg_650 on 08/23/04 at 08:50:21 Seems to be better. Unfortunately my ride to/from work is so short that I don't get a real trial. By the end of the week, Ill have a better idea. |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by Mr 650 on 08/23/04 at 22:12:58 Thanks for the update. BTW; have you ever run the flat replacement K&N filter in your bike(s)? |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by Greg_650 on 08/24/04 at 02:17:12 Mr 650 wrote:
No, I haven't. My spouse's is still stock and mine is a pod. |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by sunny on 08/24/04 at 11:54:09 let us revisit the jet size necessary for my bike, if you don't mind. my friend (detail oriented type ::) )is very leary of shadetree type mechanics so wants to know if the size recommendation for my bike/pipe combo is backed up with dyno runs before he helps me replace the jet. you all recommended a #152.5... my bike: all stock save for the pipe, a jardine, with blueing. i did the airscrew adjustment two months ago. yeah the backfiring is back but in an intermittant way, and it doesn't bother me. damaging the pipe does bother me. |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by Greg_650 on 08/24/04 at 14:31:16 sunny wrote:
Well, in this case, your friend will be very leary of me, because I am a 100% shade tree mechanic. I've been meaning to buy a dyno and set it up in the basement, but funds were tight so I opted to buy every single jet size from 147.5 to 160 and go out under the shade tree. That means that without anything more than experience and trial and error I found a combination that works. That may not be good enough for your friend, so the gamble is all yours. You take my word for it, spend $4 on the jet and and he does 30 minutes labor. Besides, it's already too late if your Jardine is blued, but you can still fix the intermittent backfire. Is your friend even a shade tree mechanic? 8) |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by Gargoyle on 08/24/04 at 14:45:11 This is my rejetting experince. I use a K&N clamp on filter. A straight thru drag pipe. Removed the white spacer. When I did these changes my Savage ran ok at low rpms. When accelerating it would sputter at higher rpms. The previous owner had drilled out the stock 135 main jet on this 98 Savage. What he drilled it out to I can't say. He did this because he had used a slip on aftermarket muffler. I then drilled out the main jet with a 1/16 drill bit. Bike ran great at all rpms. However at another Savage forum I got blasted for using such a rich jet. So I bought a 160 and 165 jet. I put in the 160 and it ran the same as the 1/16 drilled out jet. Just my experience. |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by Greg_650 on 08/24/04 at 14:47:08 Gargoyle wrote:
I remember this ;D |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by Greg_650 on 08/24/04 at 14:52:30 Actually with my polished intake, Raask and K&N pod, I think that 160 was too rich for me. So I just went down to a 157.5 but haven't driven but a couple days so far. Time will tell. Shade Tree Rice Rocks the Cas Bah 8) |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by sunny on 08/24/04 at 15:56:29 i really didn't mean any offense. he just had some bad advice from another forum. he wants to dyno the bike when he does his own, but i'd rather not go to the added expense. this is one of those times when his control freakishness is at odds with what i research for MY bike... danged well-meaning friends, anyways... so the pipe is already damaged? the blueing seems to now be progressing down the underside of the pipe towards the rear. but maybe i'm imagining things... Greg_650 wrote:
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by Greg_650 on 08/24/04 at 16:10:12 Oh, I know. I suppose that I got a little sarcastic, but I have a problem with people that second guess someone that has walked the path. Sorry to be touchy. The Savage is not a multi cylinder bike, so carb work is easy. You do one thing, if it doesn't work then you put it back or try something else. In 4 years that is what I have done on 2 Savages. I don't even pretend that I haven't screwed up...that list is longer than my successes. However, if I recommend something to a friend, I feel it is best for them and I back it up. Otherwise, I'd just lurk. You can get some polishes to help remove some of the bluing. "The Bom" is what my wife used to buff out some of the bluing on her SuperTrapp (which was the Trapp that I blued before she took it :o) Any polish will dull the finish a little, because it is IN the surface metal, but it can be reduced and polished. Takes elbow grease, but it works. Sorry, I'm just a proud Shade Tree 8) |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by Susan on 08/24/04 at 21:12:00 Greg_650 wrote:
And a dam-n-ed good one too. ;D P.S. Sorry for the hyphenation but I didn't want it to come out as "beaver thingy"... |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by Mr 650 on 08/25/04 at 00:53:41 Greg FWIW, here is my take on Sunny's (and my) 650's jetting. I have been reading all I can on the 650 since I bought it.See if this jives w/ your tuning experience. There are limits to a carbs ablities. If we only want to prevent bluing then a slightly rich mixture is what we want. Any carbureted single likes more jet as you "uncork" it, and a single is more finicky about it's mixture as you uncork the system. They need to be richer w/ less restriction and some carbs may need more tuning to adjust for an open pipe like her Jardine. Now examine that Jason's bike ran best with no jet change and a Supertrapp, confirming that a good carb will self adjust for air density. - More air pulls more fuel. In addition, the Supertrapp will give some backpressure, but is a significant improvement to the stock pipe. I have read some carbs run better w/ the Supertrapp vs. an open pipe, particularly singles. The Mikuni is quite tunable so it will take some trials to find what you need, if you want to improve performance. My Pro-stock friends all know some carbs work better than others, they will test many of the same type to find one set of "good ones", as they are looking for that last 1 Hp. That is not to say they never change jets. They change everything ...ALOT! So how do you know? Well a dyno is good, so is a time slip or a lap time. Jason's dyno runs do not mention a better air filter, he hints at a dealer adjustment, heck his stock filter may have been dirty causing the carb to go richer, who knows? In addition, I suspect his new Supertrapp uncorked his awful factory restriction and his stock 650 and Mikuni w/ the stock jet just ran better due to only that. His Mikuni didn't like the bigger jet as the Supertrapp, I suspect, is shipped to make his *stock* carb happy. One report has good results with only the spacer mod. Makes sense to me if you have seen the inside of the factory pipe. It's awful. That is why they 'hiss' as much as they 'putt-putt'. Carb tuning is trial and error. Your jet numbers are right for your set-up and give us good place to start. Sunny, Greg has "uncorked both ends of his system, 1st the intake is shorter and the K& N "pod" should be less restrictive and straightens out the air better than even a replacement K&N in our stock intakes. I suspect that would tend to lean the mixture, more than the Supertrapp. Second, you have a Raask straight pipe so it makes sense it is now at a 152 jet and going higher. Sounds like you are leaner w/ a 152 and fatter (rich) w/ a 160 jet by 'seat of the pants' testing. I would be curious to see a time slip or dyno runs w/ the Raask in current tune vs. your 10 disc Supertrapp installed and the Mikuni and re-tuned. Sunny’s Jardine is an open ended pipe so with no other mods my guess says start w/ a 150 vs. the stock 145. This may be a little rich, but should help with backfires and bluing. Now if she is at high altitude, she may need to lean that set up. There is more tuning help on the Mikuni web site. Literally, "your mileage may vary". I bet a dollar to a donut Jason's pipe is very colorful now. Here's his dyno chart- http://www.thumperpage.com/articles/ls650exh.html Sorry about he tirade, I just needed to plan my own tuneup. |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by Greg_650 on 08/25/04 at 02:59:55 Not sure where to begin. I do agree that Jason's Trapp should be colorful now. That is what happened to mine with no jet change...as I just wanted to ride it and play and I had no one to give me any advice otherwise. I bought the Trapp thinking that it was tuned for the Savage. My mistake and within 100 miles the Trapp was blue at the header pipe clamp. That was over 3 years ago. What I don't know is the sound of Jason's Trapp. When he closes the throttle does he have a pop pop sound or is it a growl on decel? There is a difference. Also, I experiemented with disks in the Trapp. 4 , then 6, then 8, and finally 14. 4 is defiinitely not good. What I do know is that a friend with a '97 was eager to loose his backfiring with his stock pipe (with one hole in the center main baffle). To that I changed his main jet to a 152.5 and he has been riding happily, backfire free, ever since. I guess that I am just a stubborn old Shade Tree. I know what I have done and I know that others have done the same with the same results. I also know my bike inside and out since new. In the case, of Jason, I do not know anything...what has been done by the dealer or maybe a previous owner. As you use the word "suspect" I do not know enough either. One other thing...the jet size is a restriction. Just because you get more air flow doesn't mean that you get more fuel. There is still a maximum amount able to pass through the orifice. It is that maximum that we increase. Also don't forget that the jet needle works with the main jet through the mid throttle range. Any gas through the jet needle/needle jet goes through the main first. It is only after the diaphram has raised the needle to the maximum that the throttle plate is contolling the main jet with the air flow. And at that point, fuel flow is physically limited by the orifice size. The 1986 Savages had a 155 main with a very similar exhaust (maybe less restrictive), so using similar logic I figure that a #155 may also work on a stock Savage....and yes, I do understand that other parts on the inside of the carbs have changed in 18 years. Do you realize that the '86 Savage had a larger throttle plate in what looks like the same carb? The only thing that I can say is either do as I did and buy a handful of jets and spend the time trying different setups, or just be cautious and listen to pops and watch the bluing. It isn't a big thing to change a jet, so why all the hesitation? Instead of the next movie ticket, buy 2 jets and do some wrenching. |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by klx650sm2002 on 08/25/04 at 06:36:35 Buying a load of jets and trial and error was what I had to do as the carb only came with starting point jetting and I'd altered a couple of things. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by Greg_650 on 08/25/04 at 14:24:36 klx650sm2002 wrote:
I saw a group of KLRs the other day, and thought of you. But yours is a KLX, right? So, yours is just an off road thumper? Or dual sport? The largest dirt bike that I ever rode was a Yamaha 500, it handled like a tank, but it could pull a stump :o |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by klx650sm2002 on 08/27/04 at 03:08:46 You'r right Greg mine is a KLX, C model which means it was dual sport, the R model is a full on enduro. Of course mine is now a streetmoto,doesn't go off road at all. gearing works out at 102mph at the red line in top,slightly high for the lake side roads I ride on. Thinking about an another couple of teeth on the rear sprocket. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by Greg_650 on 08/27/04 at 03:45:35 I was shopping for dual sport bikes when I first saw the Savage....well, actually I wanted 2 DR650s but my wife couldn't put her feet on the ground with those bikes. So I got the Savage...and the rest is a 4 year history :o |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by klx650sm2002 on 08/27/04 at 03:50:21 Not many people can get their feet down on My KLX, even with it being a bit lower with the wheels. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by Mr 650 on 08/29/04 at 16:57:16 Greg_650 wrote:
I picked one of those up on eBay today, couldn't resist @ $49 ;D Between my '01 and this older BS40 it oughta run better one way or another: http://www.andersonvintageparts.com/auction/1320024b41a.jpg http://www.andersonvintageparts.com/auction/1320024b41b.jpg New Old Stock ( NOS ) Carburetor Assembly for the following; LS650 LS-650 LS 650 " Savage " - Years 1986 1988 1991 1994 G/J/M/R LS650 P LS-650 P LS 650 P " Savage " - Years 1973 K Part Number: # 13200-24B41 |
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Title: Re: Jetting Post by Greg_650 on 08/30/04 at 02:04:43 Yep it's an older one alright. You can tell because the bowl drain is shaped different. Should already be jetted richer too. |
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