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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Rejetting and Emissions Checks /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1093436833 Message started by Savage_Rob on 08/25/04 at 05:27:13 |
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Title: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Savage_Rob on 08/25/04 at 05:27:13 I know inspection and licensing requirements vary widely with locale but, in Dallas County, we are required to pass an emissions check each year as part of the vehicle's State inspection. Has anyone had any trouble with passing this after rejetting the carb on their Savage? I am planning on rejetting mine (in fact I've already ordered a DynoJet kit) but thought about this after reading on the DynoJet site that this may not be legal for street bikes in all areas. I know many of you have already rejetted yours, so I thought this would be a pretty easy one to get answered. Rob |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Mr 650 on 08/25/04 at 07:51:25 We check only car & truck emissions here, bikes are not tested. Statistically bikes represent less than 1% of total emissions. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Savage_Rob on 08/25/04 at 09:38:24 Maybe that's the case here too. I'm not sure. My last bike was almost 15 years ago and I don't recall doing the smog check then but not everything is the same now. I know checks for cages have become more extensive and restrictive than they were then and my last bike was a '76 KZ750 and may simply have been exempt by virtue of its age - some older cages are exempt too. I just don't know yet. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Mr 650 on 08/25/04 at 09:48:07 Reply Quote:
ask around, I don't believe all those straight-piped Harleys I saw running around big"D" were swapping pipes for the annual inspection. I bet you are good to go. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by sunny on 08/25/04 at 09:56:30 johnson county(south of fort worth, west of ellis county) now has to check emmissions for cars and trucks, but bikes are not checked for emissions. i wondered about that too until i got the inspection on mine done. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Savage_Rob on 08/25/04 at 10:04:03 Dallas/Ft. Worth and Houston/Galveston have much more restrictive testing than anywhere else in the state, followed by El Paso. They charge an extra $39.50 on top of the normal inspection fees for the privilege too. However, found what I was looking for under the Vehicle Inspection and Maintenance section of the Texas Administrative Code (gotta love the web) and it goes like this... "Applicability. The requirements of this section and those contained in the revised Texas Inspection and Maintenance (I/M) State Implementation Plan (SIP) shall be applied to all gasoline-powered motor vehicles 2 - 24 years old and subject to an annual emissions inspection, beginning with the first safety inspection. Currently, military tactical vehicles, motorcycles, diesel-powered vehicles, dual-fueled vehicles which cannot operate using gasoline, and antique vehicles registered with the Texas Department of Transportation are excluded from the program." Looks like I don't need to worry. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by wrench on 08/25/04 at 11:27:50 > emissions check each year as part of the vehicle's > State inspection. Has anyone had any trouble with > passing this after rejetting the carb on their Savage? Rejetting will raise the CO output and you won't pass. If you do the jet/s, or remove the white spacer, or do any other power system mods, keep the stock parts so you can put 'em back on come test time. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Greg_650 on 08/25/04 at 14:17:18 Most places that I've heard of don't check bikes yet. They do cars here in NC, but so far we are safe. So I live for the moment. Just wait to see what may happen after 2006 when the new EPA restrictions fall into place. Since the stock Savage is about as lean as it can get with an air cooled/ carb. engine, I expect a radical change to the Savage. Might be farting through a catalytic converter too. ::) |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Jon on 08/25/04 at 15:22:00 > Most places that I've heard of don't check bikes yet. The bureaucracy is gearing up to test bikes, maybe in a year or two the fun will end. There are going to be a h**l of a lot of Harley riders looking for those OEM pipes they threw away. Dealers who've stockpiled them are going to do well selling them back. > Since the stock Savage is about as lean as it can get > with an air cooled/ carb. engine, I expect a radical > change... The torque advantage of this big single tends to mask the EPA lean sag quite well, so it might tolerate even leaner primary jetting. Still, it's in danger. Hopefully it won't get dropped from the line. I suspect, to meet future standards, the engine will need water-cooling and F.I. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Mr 650 on 08/25/04 at 17:31:54 Quote:
What's good for the goose... I think H-D, the same company that managed to get tariffs leveled against the imports 20 years ago, may have something to say about it. Besides, they already have EFI. Until the EPA can say definitively that bikes actually make ANY difference w/ regard to U.S. emissions controls vs. the amount of emissions generated by all cars and trucks, then it will not be a problem except for the Peoples Rep. of Kalifornia who like to impose that sort of crap just to be anal. The Feds know most bikes (I didn't say all bikes) spend most of their lives in the garage creating no emissions as opposed to your average commuter car or semi. They could mandate only fuel cells on ALL bikes and ATVs and it wouldn’t make a measurable difference. Even if they did pass some such crap they would be looking at all the new 1000 to 2000 cc bikes 1st. It would be easy to say those BIG heavy liter+ bikes are doing 90% of the damage and hang converters on the 1000cc+ bikes, saving the smaller bikes and our Savages/40's. Speaking of EFI, if they gave tax credits for new variable fuel trucks like my Sonoma and the Hybrid cars, why not all EFI bikes getting over say 60 MPG? I think we should give a tax credit to bike riders for both the purchase any of those new bikes and a credit on fuel put into them. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Ace on 08/25/04 at 18:56:19 > ...They could mandate.... Let us never forget that these government agencies work for US, we don't work for them. If they fail to recognize that SUVs and other gas guzzling and polluting vehicles are the true focus, then it's up to US to protest or we'll lose our wonderful sport. Seriously people, we are at a turning point in motorcycling and NEED to pay attention to what is going on. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Greg_650 on 08/26/04 at 08:54:02 For those that haven't heard about the new EPA regs, the entire 50 states will be adopting the same "Kalifornia" standards over a period of time. The standards for 2004 in CA will be everyone's in 2006, and then there will be another set of standards that take place 2-4 years later. This happened back in March, I believe. Been well discussed in the AMA etc. Bottom line: we will be breathing cleaner air whether we want to or not, so keep the old pipe. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Susan on 08/26/04 at 09:00:31 I didn't know that. Thanks for the update. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Savage_Rob on 08/26/04 at 10:50:46 I am somewhat curious though. It seems to me that the bike is very lean when stock. If I add a K&N air filter with no other changes, it should be leaner still, although it'll probably fart on every other stroke. If I rejet only to a 150-155, it may not make that much difference to the emissions. In any case, that's what I intend to try... but I'll save my stock parts. My guess is that there will be a new market for slip-on mufflers with built-in catalytic converters. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Mr 650 on 08/26/04 at 12:09:08 Yeah a $200 supertrapp will be $500. >:( I'm not too current, last I heard was current bikes will still be held to the same stds they have since '82 when they were all carbed. the 2006 bikes will be the snag. I doublt what kind of pipe you have will make any diff. on pre '06 bikes. Better get a new one now if you are wanting a new bike though. The current spec is not hard for most current bikes to meet. Unless you got a smokin hi-mile V-max. It's a one size fits all spec. unless they have changed it. I have no idea where this is in Congress. I imagine few in Congress know. I guess the questions to ask the doorknobs before all this is implemented ; How much will it increase the cost of a bike. How much will it decrease smog. Will it be measureable, if not why are you impossing this crap! Perhaps if it can't be measured then 'sunset" this joke. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by wrench on 08/26/04 at 13:29:13 > It seems to me that the bike is very lean when stock. In order to meet EPA tailpipe emissions, carburetors have 1) a lean airscrew setting, 2) a fat neck on the slide needle. Both of these restrict fuel flow from idle to about 2500 rpm. The low rpm sag can be eliminated by 1) uncapping the airscrew and backing it out about 1/2 turn, and/or 2) removing the plastic needle spacer. The quickest and easiest fix is the spacer job, it can be done without pulling the carb. Doing this will override the lean airscrew enough so that the bike will accelerate seamlessly. Changing the main jet will just richen the mix from mid-range rpm to WO. Changing the pilot jet will help off-idle sag, but is a more difficult job than necessary. If you dink with the air filter, leanness will be increased. The engine aspirates just fine with the stock filter and you will not notice much of a power increase doing this unless you also fit a less restrictive pipe. If you go with a new pipe and filter you will enter into tuning hell to get the engine dialed in. If you like to tinker 'a lot', go for it. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Greg_650 on 08/26/04 at 14:10:01 wrench wrote:
Yes and no. Everything that you say is correct concerning the particular carb functions and the effects of pipes and filters. What I disagree with is the "tuning hell" part. It isn't that difficult if you follow simple little steps to do it....and of course you do have to be of a mind to tinker and have a few tools anyway. There's no hell in this little part of NC ::) |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Greg_650 on 08/26/04 at 14:28:35 Mr 650 wrote:
You are right concerning mixtures etc. A lean bike getting leaner with a pipe change and then getting back to original mixture with a jet change makes sense. It would be the same. They do that with fuel injected engines and their controls now, when someone buys a new pipe. Secondly it won't have any retro effects, with the exception that all this will probably bring about emmission testing in bikes and anyone with an out of tune bike may have to fix that. What this really concerns is new motorcycles. Just consider that ALL Savages or S40s will be configured the same as the CA models are now, in 2006. The extra plumbing etc....that is about it. And finally, THIS IS A DONE DEAL. No need to write to your congressmen or the other doorknobs. This has been in the works for over 2 years, and I for one have written to my NC congresspeople about this. Of course, I never got any kinds of answer back The original EPA Guidelines, as they were called, were more more restrictive than the final version recently passed. The AMA and the MRF were very involved in the process with a lot of lobbying. Now, it is done. Bikes are mandated to be as clean burning as cars by the year 2010, whether we like it or not....and the reason that I bring it up? Because I think that will make a bikes subject to emissions testing with an inspection in areas like mine where it isn't done now. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Ace on 08/26/04 at 15:07:31 > And finally, THIS IS A DONE DEAL. It's unfortunate that the Republicans picked such a d-i-c-k-h-e-a-d for Emperor, because if they remained in office the EPA might get slapped around and their power decreased. Emissions from motorcycles are such a non-issue compared to 4-wheelers. Logic never has been a virtue of government. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Greg_650 on 08/27/04 at 03:03:04 Ace wrote:
This is hardly a name calling political issue. WE elected these people. The EPA has been making these guidelines through several administrations, and it will effect all of us the same as it has for years and years in California. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Susan on 08/27/04 at 07:21:46 Greg_650 wrote:
Agreed. One of the things that is great about this forum is that we try to stay focused on the things we CAN do for our bikes. If we can avoid spiraling into a political discussion, I suggest we do so. With that in mind, in reference to the tuning question. What is difficult to tune -- is it the jets? If so, is this why people get the "dial-a-jet"? What is a "dial-a-jet"? Is is a good thing or a bad thing? |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Mr 650 on 08/27/04 at 09:49:45 Quote:
I never saw one on a bike carb. I know Spint cars used to run them on mechanical fuel injected engines. Those systems work off a crank-driven pump and the jet(s) and barrel valve controls fuel delivery to the motor, completely different from a carb. ??? I would be curious how/IF something like that would work, where it hooks up,& so forth. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by wrench on 08/27/04 at 11:55:40 > What is difficult to tune -- is it the jets? Yes, it's difficult to tune jetting. It requires a lot of trial and error. You'll have the float bowl off a lot. The Dial-a-Jet can make it easier, but not simple. The factory does a lot of testing with exhaust analyzers to get the fuel mix as close to ideal as possible throughout the rev range. Sure, the engine will run with any number of jet sizes close enough to create combustion, but it won't be ideal. And, tuning with plug readings won't be accurate. Altering factory carburetion changes the power curve. Larger jetting with an open pipe and less restrictive air filter will make more power at higher revs, but the dyno then shows power loss at lower rpm. If you don't race, what's the point in losing low rev energy? On the streets that is what you use most. I'm not against tinkering, just don't expect the same ride when you're through. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Greg_650 on 08/28/04 at 04:39:36 Mr 650 wrote:
The "Dial a Jet" is nothing more than an adjustable venturi tube that is inserted into the intake ahead of the carb...usually by inserting it through the rubber boot. (It works the same as say the main jet in the carb) The fuel for the venturi (DAJ) is provided by a tube connected to the float bowl drain, and as air passes the venturi in the intake, fuel is "sucked" from the bowl and into the intake. The amount of fuel is adjustable. This richens the entire throttle range. It is about $60. Some like it. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by klx650sm2002 on 08/28/04 at 04:44:44 If you want richer higher up and leaner low down use a smaller main air jet. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Greg_650 on 08/28/04 at 04:51:06 klx650sm2002 wrote:
I'm like you, I prefer experimenting with individual jets ::) |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by klx650sm2002 on 08/28/04 at 05:03:34 I've never had a bike' that I didn't changh the jetting on I lasted about two weeks on my first bike' I had a lathe so used to make my own main airs, could get mains from the dealer. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Susan on 08/28/04 at 08:04:44 Greg_650 wrote:
Wow. Boy I am now in way over my head. ??? Is the idea behind the "dial-a-jet" that it gives you many different jetting options in one? That's what it sounds like to me as a novice but I really have no idea. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by gitarzan on 08/28/04 at 10:31:56 Susan: http://www.thunderproducts.com/dial_a_jet.htm |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Mr 650 on 08/28/04 at 12:30:14 We need this double barrel deal if I am reading this correctly; http://www.thunderproducts.com/dial_a_jet_dually.htm Interesting, I might try one. It looks like it is used mostly by smaller engine aplications. I would like to see some dyno numbers to back it up. All the plastic doesn't inspire confidence, but i like the idea. :-/ I got my headpipe back so I am ready to go set up my carb & exhaust. I will be @ 50th U.S. Nats all next week, but plan to set-up the carb for the new pipe when I get back in town. I would like another carb to torture test this gizzy with and save my stocker nd report back. P.S. If Denco invented it & Vance & Hines sell them it, must do something. I went back and read the info from their site and I would guess the single DaJ might work good on a stock late model LS650 carb. TP says the main needs to be about two jets small. This is about where I should be now, so would be an easy test to just stick one on when i install the new pipe. It didn't say where is the best location to install the jet? Injectors seem to be moving "up the stack" .Toward the air filter on the LS650.(?) The website shows the carb drilled and the new jet extending toward the center of the airway of the carb throat. :P |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Susan on 08/28/04 at 17:39:11 gitarzan wrote:
Thanks and thanks for your patience! I understand better now. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Greg_650 on 08/29/04 at 04:28:12 Susan wrote:
The DAJ is adjusted with a screw driver. You have these options...rich, richer, richest. Essentially you adjust, ride, adjust, and ride until it runs good. That is what I've seen another Savage owner do. I suppose that you can go through the trouble of a dyno setup, but if you do that, then why not just have the carb rejetted normally and save the expense of the DAJ? |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Mr 650 on 08/29/04 at 07:39:48 According to the website you can make adjustments w/ change in altitude w/o roadside carb disassembly, Nifty. Dean (Denco) invented it to adjust for corrected altitude on his old drag bikes, so you have to jet the main down two, then the DAJ picks up the slack. So basically you can go up or down one jet. I would like to try one sometime. I will just swap jets for now. If response is flaky I would like to try it. Thunder claims increased mileage, but seems like you would need a too-lean setup to start w/. I would be tempted to lean it out on the highway. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Greg_650 on 08/30/04 at 02:39:39 Mr 650 wrote:
The newer Savages are 4 main sizes down from the original ones, but of course, the other jets are changed too. What about the need to have the main 2 sizes smaller? Relative to what? And if you need to change the main jet to use the DAJ, then why bother? |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Mr 650 on 08/31/04 at 09:37:18 Greg_650 wrote:
Relative to the optimum jet for your bike. This thing only fattens the mixture so you go down 2 jets and it can bring you back to where you were or more w/ a little screwdriver. Sounds good for roadside mixture change in the Rockys. says it can correct for up to 12k ft. Check it out on the Thunder Products page. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by vintage rider on 08/31/04 at 09:44:03 > Sounds good for roadside mixture change inthe Rockys. Don't know about you, but when I ride the mountains the last thing on my mind is stopping to mess with the carb so that I can change it again at lower altitudes. The whole dial-a-jet thing is anal-retentive nonsense. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by Greg_650 on 09/01/04 at 02:48:57 ;D I still don't know why you want to change the main jet to a smaller size just to add some expensive clutter to the exterior of the carb. I thought that "uncluttered" and "simple' were parts of the attraction for a Savage. I've only ridden my bike to an altitude of 6K, but still there were no problems. |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by klx650sm2002 on 09/01/04 at 07:24:44 I'm at an altitude of about 500ft. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Rejetting and Emissions Checks Post by SweetSavage on 09/19/04 at 21:55:32 I go from about 300 ft elevation to 7,000 and up quite often with no problems whatsoever. Dial-a-Jet is a waste of money on the Savage. :P |
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