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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> An interesting post for tweakers /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1094908232 Message started by gitarzan on 09/11/04 at 06:10:31 |
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Title: An interesting post for tweakers Post by gitarzan on 09/11/04 at 06:10:31 And interesting series of tweaks from Bert's: http://www.heise-workstations.de/ls650/Fragen/messages/37079.html |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by klx650sm2002 on 09/11/04 at 06:44:21 That has gathered everything together in one place, nice one. I would like to add when it's time to change the spark plug get an iridium one, that lets you run a plug gap at the maximum of the standard range and still get a consistant big spark. There's only one plug so make it a good one. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by gitarzan on 09/11/04 at 10:33:19 klx650sm2002 wrote:
What an excellent quote!!! ;D |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by Greg_650 on 09/11/04 at 11:36:58 Good collection of stuff in one place.... I don't necessarily agree with everything though. Being a conservative kinda guy, I adjust the intake and exhaust valves to .004" (the specs call for .003 to .005"). So I'm not so sure about the recommendation to adjust the intakes to .003 and the exhaust to .006". First, it is darn hard enough to adjust them where they are located, but when using the thinnest guage in the set (.003") it is even harder. For me, when we are talking less than a piece of paper in thickness that is a close tolerance. I'd be afraid of getting it too close, and the consequences of cam shaft wear are too high. Just not a good practice in my opinion. Second is the exhaust gap of .006". Here the valve might have more time on the valve seat, but you are even looser than specs. If the theory is correct then I'd go no larger than .005" because Suzuki receommends that. In either case, you will hear more valve clatter. Because of the screw and nut type adjusters on the Savage, I recommend (and do) set the gap loosely at .005" on all 4 valves, and then when the nut is finally tightened it invariably turns the adjuster ever so slightly to a gap of .004". I check it and leave it there. With that note...just imagine setting the intake to .003" and it ends up at .002". Give it a little heat expansion and it might end up being .000". |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by Greg_650 on 09/11/04 at 12:03:50 klx650sm2002 wrote:
People always have opinions about plugs, but I don't (for a change). All that I know is that I've changed plugs over the years, and have seen no difference. The only bikes where I saw any importance were on 2 strokes where it was easy to get them wet. On a side note, my '99 Malibu, I did notice a slight improvement when I finally changed them at around 150,000 miles (no kidding), and she is still running right along at 205K now. But back to the Savage. Just as an experiment, I changed mine to the hotter NGK DP7EA-9 in 2002. I noticed no change, and all I've done since is clean it and re-gap last winter. On my spouse's, she is still using the stock DP8EA-9. I put a new one in last winter, but I don't know why. It changed nothing. My thoughts are this....the manufacturer recommends a plug. If the bike runs fine, why change it? Does a different plug really make a difference? I've heard people complain of Savage's fouling plugs, but something else was wrong anyway. On the other hand, I've bought "Split Fires" and all kinds over the years, and they've never done anything but cost more money. Are you saying an Iridium plug will show me something? ??? |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by Jon on 09/11/04 at 14:27:36 > I don't necessarily agree with everything though. Greg... that must be you. ;) > Being a conservative kinda guy, I adjust the intake > and exhaust valves to .004" My rule, too, because aiming at .004 allows for a little error either way. Tightening the screw adjusters always blows away measuring accuracy. Fwiw... Regarding the MMO recommendation in the original post, that stuff does make a good top oil. But, if you want more punch as well as a little top lube add the recommended amount of Sea Foam to the gas. Sea Foam is pale oil and naphtha. I often double the suggested amount for smaller bikes and can really feel the difference. Sea Foam removes combustion chamber deposits, and after they are gone my plug readings have looked normal--no sign of leanness or heat from the naphtha. |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by Honda_fan on 09/11/04 at 18:19:10 Greg_650 wrote:
I am right with Greg on this. You run the risk of burning a valve if set too tight. I lean towards the loose end of Mfg. reccomended settings myself. Also if set too loose they won't ride on the cam properly and can cause excessive wear. |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by Greg_650 on 09/12/04 at 02:44:30 Jon and Honda Fan...glad that you guys understand. I realize that everyone has their own little tricks and techniques, but since Suzuki has produced these bikes for so long, I figure that it might be a good practice to follow their specs. I thought about posting my opinions in that forum (I have before), but hell, I tend to keep the stuff stirred up enough here anyway ::) |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by Greg_650 on 09/12/04 at 03:03:04 Jon wrote:
Okay, I did read the part about MMO in that guy's list, but here I have no opinion again :P I have never used any additives, either fuel or oil, so I'll ask the question again. Will it really show me something? For the fuel additive, I've always thought these things were for an engine with problems. As well, I've always kinda felt that adding an "oil" to the fuel would change the viscosity and burn characteristics too, which might be messing with that precious ~15 to 1 fuel to air ratio. To me that seemed like it would only make the engine run less than optimum. I will admit that on occassion, I add a carb or fuel injector cleaner to my car's gas, but you guys are suggesting this as a regular kind of thing for a bike and one that improves performance too? |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by klx650sm2002 on 09/12/04 at 05:30:43 I like to set valve clearances at the minimum end, theroy being the cam doesn't hit the valve as hard more important if you're going to rev it. KLX's have a weak coil, iridium plugs have a V small centre electrode (0.6mm 0.024") which reduces the load on the coil,thats why I use them. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by Greg_650 on 09/12/04 at 05:58:14 klx650sm2002 wrote:
Okay. I like theories. You're right that there isn't as much of an impact between the cam and follower. Now if you set the clearance at the minimum aren't you also limiting the space for oil lubrication on the cam as well? The Savage has a pretty crappy surface on the cam anyway. Why does a small electrode reduce the load? 'Cause the electrons don't have enough space to hang around? I would think that a larger gap would cause more of a load on the coil. |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by mownor on 09/12/04 at 08:20:06 Why does a small electrode reduce the load? 'Cause the electrons don't have enough space to hang around? I would think that a larger gap would cause more of a load on the coil. [quotation from Greg] Yes, Greg. If I go back several decades to my Air Force radar tech days I recall that a spark jumps from a sharp point more easily than from a flat or curved surface, so a smaller or sharper centre electrode would cause a quicker spark. A wider gap would require the coil to produce a greater voltage before the spark occurred. That, however, would change the timing slightly. It would advance a smidge for a sharper electrode and retard for a wider gap. My old brit bike required max manual spark advance for high revs and max retard for slow or starting. I can see split electrode plugs for "stronger" sparks but not if they cause changes in the timing. As you say there is a good reason for factory specs and plug gap is probably a good example, IMHO. Cheers, M |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by Jon on 09/12/04 at 10:31:20 > Will it really show me something? Get a can of Sea Foam at a NAPA auto parts store and you will see. |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by sunny on 09/13/04 at 08:29:20 concerning the sea foam. is it pricey? i use a tank of gas a day when i am commuting via bike... |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by klx650sm2002 on 09/13/04 at 11:30:24 Anyone who has used a TIG will know about the importance of pointy electrodes. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by Honda_fan on 09/13/04 at 12:09:57 klx650sm2002 wrote:
Well not totally pointy, but I know what you mean. We get best life with a small flat on the tip. |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by Honda_fan on 09/13/04 at 12:12:52 Jon wrote:
Jon, Do you know what the main ingredient is in Seafoam? I have never heard of this myself. MMM is mainly ATF fluid and you can get the same results using the cheapest ATF you can find. I was wondering if Seafoam is also mostly ATF or is there some other ingredient. |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by klx650sm2002 on 09/13/04 at 12:13:49 Like the flat tip on the centre electrode. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by Jon on 09/13/04 at 12:53:37 Honda_fan wrote:
Sea Foam is pale oil and naphtha. Pale oil is apparently a spin-off from the gasoline distillation process. It's a lube and also very good at dissolving petroleum sludge. Sea Foam added to the crankcase will unstick gummy, glued rings. I've used it a lot on restoration projects to bring back compression. I'm not sure exactly how SF in the gas gives the bike more punch. Naphtha may have a lower flash point than gasoline so it effectively increases the combustion energy? |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by za16866 on 09/13/04 at 13:14:26 87 or 89 octane... hummmmmm... i run 94 all the time? am i foolish? |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by Greg_650 on 09/14/04 at 03:02:39 Probably just a waste of money with the low compression engine. Only useful if you experience and knock or preignition and ride in a hot area. The book recommends regular. |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by Susan on 09/14/04 at 06:05:39 Greg_650 wrote:
Knocking I understand. What is preignition? |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by Paladin on 09/14/04 at 06:39:39 dictionary.com: preignition n. The ignition of fuel in an internal-combustion engine before the spark passes through the fuel, resulting from a hot spot in the cylinder or from too great a compression ratio for the fuel. Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language The Otto Cycle: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/otto.html#c2 When preignition occurs the firing of the fuel and the explosive expansion of gas pushing the pistion down starts while the crankshaft is pushing the pistion up. Until the pistion hits top dead center and starts down the expanding gases are trying to stop the rotation of the engine. After the piston passes TDC the expanding gases push to speed up engine rotation. (On a low speed turn you can feel each power stroke give the bike a goose.) When you are crusing at part throttle you are restricting the amount of air/fuel into the engine. When you open the throttle you increase the amount of air/fuel entering the cylinder and the compression of this greater amount of air/fuel results in higher pressures triggering the preignition. Use of a higher octane rating will reduce preignition. |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by Paladin on 09/14/04 at 06:42:19 za16866 wrote:
94? Swine! The highest I can get from a commercial pump is 91. The Birthplace of Hot-Rodding is denied decent gasoline. |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by za16866 on 09/14/04 at 07:53:33 i get it from sunoco... but just for the fun of it ... last fall i got a couple gallons of vp racing fuel 115 octane from my buddy( he races late models) filled her up with that... ran like a raped ape.... but nobody could follow me down the road... the exhaust was so strong that the 2 guy's behind me made me stop so they could wipe the tears from their eyes.... they likened it to cutting onions... i thought it was pretty funny... but they led the pack the rest of the day..... :o |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by Mr 650 on 09/14/04 at 08:27:59 Seems like I recently read that the EPA requires oxygenated gas during summer, like May to October, in high smog areas. (Kalifornia all the time now?) This seems to correspond w/ an increase in backfires about May, until good ol' summer heat richens the mixture. March and April in w/ temps in the 60's bike runs fine on regular 87 octane. As the air warms up, I get some detonation if I lug it around, so I switched to premium 91-93 octane to help w/ that, but it seems like local Shell backfired more after sundown, until July & Aug. Now I run one 'click' higher midgrade or premium only to defend against dreaded pinging depending on temperature and load. I was away from July to last Dec. and missed out on the dreaded hi-temp ping last year. The ol 650 will pull even if you are 2 gears too high and I love the sound, but it will ping if you lug it down too hard and whack it open. This is more common if the temp is like in the 90's, so I try to baby it more in bad heat. When 90+, I prefer the GMC on "Max Air" anyway. :) |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by wrench on 09/14/04 at 09:54:54 > Seems like I recently read that the EPA requires > oxygenated gas during summer, It is used in the cold months to compensate for longer run time with the choke on. California may have their own requirements, though. > This seems to correspond w/ an increase in backfires > about May, until good ol' summer heat richens the > mixture. Heat leans the mixture. Warmer temps combined with a reduced amount of MTBE in the gas would cause the backfiring. > As the air warms up, I get some detonation if I lug it > around... the ol 650 will pull even if you are 2 gears > too high and I love the sound, but it will ping if you > lug it down too hard and whack it open. Around here that is referred to as 'abuse', 2 gears too high is lugging. Give the engine a break and use high octane gas all the time. > This is more common if the temp is like in the 90's, so > I try to baby it more in bad heat. You'll have lower head temps if you keep shifting so it spins easy. Lugging/babying cooks the top end. |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by Mr 650 on 09/15/04 at 04:34:25 wrench wrote:
Thanks for the update on the seasonal gas Wrenchster. BTW:More on the CA gas: http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/types_of_gasoline.html Quote:
What are you riding? If I try hard enough, I may "lug" it. :) It took 15 months, & hi-temps to detonate. Look again G-man. Suzuki rates this 8.5:1 motor for 87 octane not me. ;) Like I said, I have tried them all and now use 90 or better. (remember that part ? You forgot to quote it) Highway surface temps "around here" climb over 100+ in July and August ,like most. Any air-cooled motor is subject to ping above 1/2 throttle "around here" in August. ("around here" sometimes you use WO throttle or you die ) Quote:
Give me a break, I said I do. Quote:
"Keep shifting"Wouldn't that be "abusive"...higher gears and all, less spinning, more cylinder pressure etc.? (can't have it both ways now) :) Since both 4th & 5th are overdriven, do you suggest we ride in 3rd all summer to "spin easy"? ;D BTW:Not long after the LS was purchased, the shift linkage broke(previous owner bent it, then fatigue set in) Had to stop, shift to 3rd by hand twisting the input shaft, and rode home w/ only 3rd. The motor was 'kept spinning' and the head (whole motor) was HOT! It would have been cooler to ride home in 5th ;D Quote:
Make up your mind man. You can lug it or you can baby it, just not at the same time! See,"Around here" less throttle and more revs=babying. ;) Now if you just don't like the way I ride, well KMA. :-* |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by klx650sm2002 on 09/15/04 at 06:15:18 4th + 5th may be "overdriven" but the 'bike is still under geared from a top speed point of view. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by za16866 on 09/15/04 at 06:46:36 AMEN TO THAT BRO.... if i had a nickel for every time i try to find 6th gear... i'd be donald trump.... 8) one more gear would make this machine soooo much more of a highway cruiser... ;D |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by klx650sm2002 on 09/15/04 at 10:54:54 Have You thought about Chain drive to get that higher gear ? Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by klx650sm2002 on 09/15/04 at 11:03:30 The gearing can be raised by changing rear tire sizes. At the same revs a 140/90/15 gives 4.6% more speed and a 150/90/15 (if it fits) gives 7.6% more speed. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by za16866 on 09/15/04 at 11:12:22 yes i have.. alot.... i dont' care about adjustinig.. oil on the wheels... all that stuff.. i have been riding motorcycles since i was 9... thats all just stuff ya do... regular maintenance...... does anyone have a kit? or some part numbers to do the swap? i only have another month or so to ride her in PA... this winter would be a great time to do it... i just dont' have the time to research the parts i would need right now.. any suggestions? |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by Mr 650 on 09/15/04 at 11:13:23 I understand 'Za', if you ever rode a 6 speed, your foot keeps wishing for 6th. I rode an RD parts bike before I put the front end on my Kawy. Ruined for life! Even if the Suzy's 5 speed gearbox was spred out w/ wider ratios (like the 1st generation LS's,and making 5th higher) I would always want 'one more' now. My thumb wishes the blinkers were self-canceling like some of my compadres Yamaha's too. :) My Savage's turn signal center cancel button is mushy. I will press it and sometimes the signals fail to cancel, not good, just begging some cager to pull-out. :o In the daylight the edge of my sheild hides the too-dim turn signal indicator. Midday I can barely see the indicator unless I look down. I am considering adding a small beeper to back up the indicators for noon time riding. |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by Mr 650 on 09/15/04 at 11:38:40 klx650sm2002 wrote:
Comparing the Bridgestone S11 to the Dunlop K627 factory specs and chose the Dunlop. It's taller/narrower of the two 150/90-15's. 25.5h x 6.2w vs. 25.55h x 6.00w Hope to avoid the saddlebag supports. |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by klx650sm2002 on 09/15/04 at 11:46:19 All I know about chain drive is that the LS400 is chain driven. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by za16866 on 09/15/04 at 11:56:43 well thank you... thats a start... i am assuming that you have thought about it as well? i cannot believe that the engineers that designed the gear box wouldn't have made fifth gear taller.. just a few hundred rpm's would have made all the difference in the world..... |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by wrench on 09/15/04 at 14:23:08 > > Around here that is referred to as 'abuse' > What are you riding? I ride them and fix them. Sorry MR650 if you don't get it. Your ignorance and intolerance are your problem. |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by wrench on 09/16/04 at 11:16:48 Sorry'650, about the flames, :-* My sister left me and my banjo is broke, :'( so I been at the bottle lately. |
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Title: Re: An interesting post for tweakers Post by klx650sm2002 on 09/16/04 at 11:18:16 A 600 katana front sprocket is supposed to fit. Clive W :D |
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