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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Savage underpowered??? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1097755364 Message started by wspllrll on 10/14/04 at 05:02:44 |
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Title: Savage underpowered??? Post by wspllrll on 10/14/04 at 05:02:44 I read many posts on other forums stating the Savage is underpowered. I assume the single puts out about 30 horses. Most people talk about low end torque. Does the performance of the Savage ever leave you dissappointed? ow about on hills and highways?????? |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by thehoghunter on 10/14/04 at 05:24:11 Have never had a problem with 'underpowered' - ridden at highway speeds + on both Savages (both when they were stock and then with different mufflers). And I believe it's 36 horses. What forums are you reading that state 'underpowered'? |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by jendesigner on 10/14/04 at 05:47:52 I just rode in a Rally that had over 2000 bikes in it. No problem keeping up. At some points I lead the group and they had to keep up with me :-) Rode comfortably at 70 mph in the wind with no problems on the highway (no windshield does make for an interesting ride). Mine is rejetted which does make a difference. It was fun taking off from the stop light and leaving some of the "bigger" bikes behind. I love my bike! Most people who haven't rode a Savage would say it's underpowered but they like to compare it to much larger bikes. I can ride mine at 80 mph with no problems, I just don't want to. And on the curves, well, I'll take a Savage anytime! |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/14/04 at 06:22:20 Standard Savage 24.6 bhp @ 5000 rpm 30.5 ft-lb @ 3700 rpm No snorkel + Raask pipe = 32 bhp Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by Susan on 10/14/04 at 06:59:40 I think it depends on what you want. The only time I have heard someone complain about power on the Savage was someone who wanted to commute on the freeway, drive 80 mph and be able to blip up to 90 mph quickly if needed. This is not really what the Savage is best at. It can do it and we have highway commuters in this group who are very happy with their Savages (sunny is one I can think of). The Savage is best at country roads, and twisties. The low end torque makes it a peppy ride. My Savage has been known to leap into gear. There is no lack of power and the bike is a joy on hills. I've never had a problem with power on the highway or merging -- there is always enough get up and go to do what I want to do. As Jen mentioned, the Savage can be quick off the line and dust the big bikes if that's what you want to do. I have ridden with plenty of larger bikes and never had an issue. Really the only times I've heard a complaint is when someone actually wants a long-distance highway cruiser OR if someone thinks he knows what he is talking about but hasn't actually ridden a Savage. |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by wspllrll on 10/14/04 at 08:47:43 thehoghunter wrote:
It was actually on the Google rec.motorcycles group. Of course the people on there tend to trash anything below 1100cc as underpowered. I am assuming their are diminishing returns for HP vs weight as you go up the food chain. Especially riding 2 up which I will rarely if ever do. |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by PerrydaSavage on 10/14/04 at 08:52:29 8)Living here in eastern Newfoundland, there are lots of steep hills ... both in town and out on the open road ... and compared to my old '85 Rebel, my '03 Savage is a "goat" when is comes to climbing steep grades! No probs whatsoever ... in fact, she seems to scamper up hills better than many of the larger displacement twins & fours ridden by some of my friends ... gotta love the Big Singles torque!! |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by cphilip on 10/14/04 at 09:18:18 I guess it all comes down to HP to Weight ratio... Lets look at the closest competion. I do not have HP numbers for these so we need to know that. But I think both of these are twins and one is water cooled (honda) so they make a tad more HP for what they are in Displacement. However I seriously doubt it makes up for the weight the add... nor the price! Yamaha V Star - 649cc V twin Air Cooled - 474 Pounds dry weight Honda Shadow (close as they get to compare) - 583 cc Liquid Cooled V twin - 452 pounds dry weight Suzuki Savage/S40 - 652cc Air Cooled Single - 352 Pounds Dry Weight. So lets find those HP numbers and calculate the Weight to HP ratio By the way there is a price return for value to be considered. Yamaha V Star lowest model lists for around $6000. Or just shy of that figure if I recall correctly. Can't seem to find it now. Might have been like $5800 or $5900.... And Honda wants about $5400 for that Shadow model. And what was the last list on a S40? Like just under or around $3500? These are all Crusiers in the About 650 range metric bikes. So they compare out good. So what is the HP to Weight to Value figure here.... With out all the figures you probably can see the Savages value has to be high. And its performance perhaps a tad better with its lower weight. |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by sluggo on 10/14/04 at 10:23:05 i believe most people confuse geared wrong with under power. there is little difference between 4th and 5th. 5th is more like an overdrive. the savage is geared to top out at about 85-90 any more than that is just plain nuts that with the weight of the bike. wanna have some fun with a savage just sit up a little closer to tank and you can really blast though the twisties. underpowered no under geared yes |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by wspllrll on 10/14/04 at 12:22:28 OK - I am back on board. ;D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by wspllrll on 10/14/04 at 13:08:46 I would think that a single with 650cc at 350 pounds would perform better than a 583 cc v twin @ 450 lbs. Even though I think the VLX is 30.9 HP and Savage is 30 hp. According to something that I read. |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by sunny on 10/14/04 at 13:25:26 5th gear is perfectly geared for american highway cruising speeds where you don't need to go slower than 50mph. 4th is perfect for those off highway roads where you can get up to 65 on the straightaways but have to contend with decelerating for curves and such. |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by Mr 650 on 10/14/04 at 21:52:21 sluggo wrote:
Actually both 4th and 5th are overdriven. Just love that slow turning thump. |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by Mr 650 on 10/14/04 at 22:58:03 wspllrll wrote:
The more hp/pound the quicker & faster your ride will be. Power being torque x revs. Look at an F1 motor cranking up in the high teens. Lots of little cylinders taking advantage of "free hp" by operating in the stratosphere. Just imagine a Savage w/ an 18K redline. In reality the 4-valve Suzy has potential, but suffers from low compression and a counter balancer. The BMW 650 thumper makes 50 hp w/ 11.5:1 compression. I would like to swap a beemer or the SV650's 70+hp into a Savage frame just for fun...when I hit the lotto. :) http://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/machine/models/imageGallery/color_specs.jsp?model=f650cs |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by Greg_650 on 10/15/04 at 03:10:05 wspllrll wrote:
I think the issue is "underpowered, compared to what?" There is really no comparison. There is no other 650 single cruiser bike on the market. No other big single is a cruiser and no other cruiser is a single. You end up comparing apples and oranges, which after accepting that both are round, there is nothing else. The Savage does what it was intended to do....Being easy to ride and more at home at slower speeds on back roads...just like the Suzuki advertising states. The bike should suit the rider for how he wants to ride. There is nothing wrong with the Savage, unless the bike is wrong for the rider. |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/15/04 at 04:10:13 4th + 5th may well be "overdriven" but they are still under geared. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by AL_DOWN_UNDER on 10/15/04 at 12:45:25 MY SCOOTER IS A 86 4 SPEED I HAVE DONE 3000 K ROUND TRIPS ON IT AT 100 TO 110 CRUSING NO PROBLEM . I FIND IT CRUSES AT 110 K OR 70 M.P.H BETTER TWO UP WHICH MAKES ME THINK ITS MORE OF A VIBRATION PROBLEM MORE THAN LACK OF TOP SPEED.AS FOR CLIMBING HILLS MOST OF THE TIME WHEN I REACH THE TOP : OF THE HILL I FIND I HAVE TO BACK OFF IN A HURRY AS ONCE THIS THING START THUMPING IT JUST KEEPS GOING . AS FAR A LOW END ,GET INTO 2ND AND GIVE HER A GOOD TWIST , I ALWAYS FIND IT LEAVES MY HEAD BEHIND , I STILL GET QUIET A SUPRISE AT THE LOW END TOURQE THIS THING HAS :D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by Mr 650 on 10/16/04 at 20:29:47 klx650sm2002 wrote:
C, If you are suggesting a 6 speed, I think that might be good for a little more top end, but the 4 speed guys say that extra cog was not required on the early models and some even prefer the 4 speed. The 28 hp and the flat torque curve is only going to be able to do "X" amount of work. The LS650 is sort of self govening with or with out a rev limiter the thing feels like it is 'done' about 6500 rpm. Suzuki already has 4th and 5th "stacked" pretty close together already. I think that any more gear reduction than a taller tire will start to kill torque noticably. I am about 155lbs and I think a smaller "sprocket" (pulley?) on the rear would tend to make the bike sluggish w/ a larger rider and/or touring load. I have purchased a 150/90-15 Dunlop to slow the motor in high cog a bit, hopefully reducing vibs at 70 mph and perhaps a bit more top end w/o reducing torque up through the gears. I hope it will fit OK. Won't be riding much more as work will have me coverd up the rest of the year. It will be next year by the time I get the tires changed, fitted and tested. Will let you know how it goes. |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by Paladin on 10/16/04 at 22:12:19 Like others have said -- you pick the bike to suit your wants and needs. I was looking for a little bop around town cruiser with freeway capability. A 250 would have sufficed -- I was looking at the Virago, Rebel, and the GZ250 Marauder. Then I found the Savage -- only 50 pounds heavier and massively over-powered. If I wanted a touring bike I would have gotten a touring bike. What I wanted was a lightweight nimble cruiser to ride to work, the store, friends' houses, etc.. It is what I have. Underpowered? The classic British motorcycles from the 50's and '60's were 650cc and smaller. |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by Greg_650 on 10/17/04 at 03:55:47 Paladin wrote:
Not to flip-flop on this topic, but it sort of ironic that the British singles from the 50-60's actually produced more horsepower then the Savage. It was the Brit bikes and then the Jap bikes that finally caused Harley to improve on their performance levels too. However this point does suggest that more power could be gained from the Savage engine. |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/17/04 at 04:10:43 The 150/90/15 will raise your gearing by 7.6% so where you were doing 60 you will do 64.5,If you still only do 60 then you will lose 300rpm's. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by Greg_650 on 10/17/04 at 04:24:41 Mr 650 wrote:
I'm hoping that 150/90-16 is just a typo :o |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by Paladin on 10/17/04 at 06:04:51 Greg_650 wrote:
The old hot-rodders, to increase HP, one would use a thinner head gasket or mill the head a few thousandths to increase the compression ratio. Has anyone done something to increase the compression ratio on the Savage? |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/17/04 at 07:00:15 I have the ratios 10:1 and 10.5:1 don't know where from though. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/17/04 at 07:18:30 Funny things CR,s the first half ratio you get good results, then it is diminishing returns. I think the 10.5:1 might be too high. The KLX650C3 model has 10.5:1 but is liquid cooled and I think has more cam which makes an engine more tolerant of compression. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by gitarzan on 10/17/04 at 08:23:08 Back in the day... in the second half of the 1970s, when I was drooling over inline 4s, the rule of thumb was that properly powered MC was 1 HP to every 10 pounds. The Savage is way on target if that is still the case. BTW, I would like it if it had sixth gear, or if the fifth gear was higher. It would be nice to cruise at 65mph without constantly wanting to shift up a gear. |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by Paladin on 10/17/04 at 10:30:26 klx650sm2002 wrote:
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by Greg_650 on 10/18/04 at 02:37:14 Paladin wrote:
I'm considering a little shaving of the head this winter. My only concern is the cam chain tension. |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/18/04 at 06:47:41 Skiming the head/barrel will retard the valve timing so you may want to slot the cam sprocket to advance up again. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/18/04 at 06:56:04 What squish clearance will You work to Greg ? Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/18/04 at 06:58:20 The 10:1 to 10.5:1 was from someone looking for more power. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by Greg_650 on 10/19/04 at 03:07:06 klx650sm2002 wrote:
How much would 1 mm affect the timing? |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/19/04 at 07:30:17 It varies depending on sprocket size. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by Greg_650 on 10/20/04 at 02:31:56 Doesn't sound like an ideal thing to do. Maybe I'll have to consider a different piston ??? |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/20/04 at 03:09:41 You just need to note the std cam position,slot the cam sprocket,and keep the cam in place while retarding the sprocket. I can work out how many degrees if you give me cam sprocket diameter. You should wrap the chain around the sprocket and measure from rivet centers. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/20/04 at 03:23:55 If You machine 1.5mm You will get 9.52:1 from 8.5:1. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/20/04 at 03:27:57 You need to skim the barrel enough to get your squish down to 1.5mm then take the rest off the head. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by PRH111 on 10/20/04 at 10:53:26 I'd rather go with a slightly larger piston and move the compression only up to 9.0:1 ...that way I can still use 87octane on it. |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by Mr 650 on 10/20/04 at 22:43:45 I was considering having some pistons made to raise the compresion ratio to 9.5:1. This will require higher octane and w/o changing cooling capacity this is all I expect the Savage might get by w/ on pump gas. Other Suzukis use internal oil cooling and was wondering if the LS650 sprays the piston and so forth like the other TSCC engines do? If so, an additional oil cooler might be added to help w/ the extra heat. I don't know how many pistons I would have to order to get a decent price break, but would like to hear from interested parties. |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/21/04 at 02:28:00 If you are getting different pistons you could go up on cubes at the same time say to 96mm giving 680. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by Greg_650 on 10/21/04 at 02:38:44 klx650sm2002 wrote:
Are you talking about slotting for the pin on the cam sprocket? And the bolts too? I am having a hard time with my math skills this early. Hmmm, need more coffee... :o |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/21/04 at 02:46:45 Both I think, so the sprocket can move independantly of the cam. Does your manuel give cam timing figures in degrees if so you could use a degree disc. If not you will need to mark the cam so you can keep it in position while you retard the sprocket. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/21/04 at 03:18:04 The above should be done with the crank at TDC on the end of comprssion start of power so you can keep the cam+crank in the same position relative to each other. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/21/04 at 09:12:11 Hey Greg I've been looking at the photos of LS's cylinder head (that I got from You)and it apears V difficult to time the cams in the manner I had described. On the KLX the cams are held in place after the top has been taken off, alowing you to scribe the cam ends. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by PRH111 on 10/21/04 at 13:47:18 klx650sm2002 wrote:
That would give a CR of 8.825:1 which is good enough for me...but then would the cylinder head need machining to match the larger bore? |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/22/04 at 01:51:03 I've thought of another way to correct your cam timing. Take the amount you have skimed of the barrel+head divide it by the cam sprocket radius and multiply the resultant by the distance fom the cam center to the bolt center, this gives you the amount you need elongate the bolt hole by to get correct timing. Repeat for each bolt and the pin.No need to measure degrees or mark cams. Now all You ave to do is learn how to measure squish and valve to piston clearance. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by Greg_650 on 10/22/04 at 03:09:53 I got a lot of thinking to do on this one, I think :) The winter tinkering season is about a month away.... |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/25/04 at 02:04:04 The first thing to check when looking for more compression/less squish is the valve to piston clearance. To do this you need a degree disc a dial gauge (vernier caliper might do) and a positive stop tool. The positive stop is an old spark plug with it's guts taken out and a piece of 1/4"ish welded on to poke down the cylinder, about 90mm should do. Presuming you can get the degree disc on the end of the crank put the stop in and find BDC,take the stop out. Now go to 12 degrees before TDC on the exhaust stroke and push the exhaust valve down (Inner springs only or maybe something softer) measureing the travel. Do the same with the degree disc at 12 degrees after TDC, push the inlets down measuring the travel again. A v safe clearance is .080". Take the smallest clearance (in or ex) and take .080" of it. This is a "free" gain,no piston machineing needed, just barrel or head. When doing this kind of stuff your engine will be up and down lots. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/25/04 at 02:06:22 When you can do valve to piston clearance's the rest is easy!! Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by Greg_650 on 10/25/04 at 02:28:42 I should be able to start thinking about this next month....when the raining cold starts. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by klx650sm2002 on 10/25/04 at 05:37:34 I'll help you all I can m8. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by Greg_650 on 10/25/04 at 07:11:11 I have to pull the top end off my spouse's this winter to fix a persistant oil leak too (not the plug)...so I'll have a busy winter. :P |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by klx650sm2002 on 11/14/04 at 06:53:08 Hey Greg, have You found out any more about the porting that guy on the heise forum was doing ? Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by Greg_650 on 11/15/04 at 02:03:13 No, I haven't....sorry. Guess that I need to go back there. Just been busy.... |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by klx650sm2002 on 11/15/04 at 02:05:41 I wondered where You had been. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by PRH111 on 11/15/04 at 14:25:52 I may do this during the winter. I just checked on the pricing for a dyno run ($49.95). It will run me roughly $100 for before and after. I don't know how much tuning they will let me do (it doesn't seem like the normal "1 hour" of renting the dyno and rather a quick 2-3 runs). They do have the exhaust gas analyzer so atleast I don't have to drill my pipe for the WBO2 setup I use on my car. I will also have to play around with what jet I need to compensate for the freer exhuast once I port it. |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by Greg_650 on 11/16/04 at 09:18:27 klx650sm2002 wrote:
I'm busy with a combo of job searching and moving, so it has kept me busy. I did ride my bike to work today....28 degrees F when I left this morning. Cool ridin' 8) |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by giom-650 on 11/17/04 at 07:23:29 The LS650 has plenty of power! The problem is the gear ratios provided. First gear is too high, you are going at 8 mph at idle, should be 3-5 mph. I'm used to dirt bikes where you can can go at walking speed. This is better for parades too. Second and third are the performance gears. Second gear grabs the bike at very low speed, 15-20 mph, and thrusts you to 50 mph in no time. I find myself in 3rd a lot especially under 50 mph. Fifth gear is nearly useless and ought to be eliminated, and 4th moved up to 1:1. |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by klx650sm2002 on 11/17/04 at 07:38:21 4th is allready higher than 1:1 at 0.957:1 Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by giom-650 on 11/17/04 at 08:36:30 I stand corrected. So then, the new 4th should be between the old 4th and 5th, just a little taller than the old 4th. |
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Title: Re: Savage underpowered??? Post by klx650sm2002 on 11/17/04 at 08:47:06 What about getting the old four speed model and lowering the tickover a little. Clive W :D |
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