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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1113633966 Message started by Michael on 04/15/05 at 23:46:06 |
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Title: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by Michael on 04/15/05 at 23:46:06 Hi all I took a nice long drive yesterday, about 100 miles, and noticed the last 20 miles, a whining noise, in which I think is the clutch. It does this from the time I start in first, even at low parking lot speeds. I can also hear it at higher speeds and gears. I thought it was my belt at first, but upon further investigation, like pulling in clutch lever, and coasting...or shifting to nuetral, the whine stops. The only thing i had done to the bike recently, other than my regular oil/filter change with castrol 10w40 motorcycle oil, and a spark plug change, was a new tire installed. After the shop installed the tire, I never thought to check belt tension, or wheel balance, so i drove it home (30 miles). It handled terrible on the way home. When I arrived at my destination, i checked the belt. It was super tight, and way off line, so I balanced the wheel and alligned the belt, to the specifications, with the belt adjuster. It seems to run smooth as can be now. Could too tight of a belt hurt the clutch? even though it was just 30 miles? Is clutch whine something I should be concerned about? what else could it be, besides the clutch? could it be the clutch bearings, and is this an easy fix? The bike only has 9,000 miles, and has been well maintained. Any feedback would be appreciated Michael |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by WD on 04/16/05 at 00:01:59 Using the tensioner widget is a waste of time, the belt is still too tight. Back it off until the lower run can be twisted 90 degrees to itself. It is doubtful that 30 miles would damage the clutch, especially with that few miles on the machine. However, by now, you are at least 3 clutch cable adjustments in to your ownership, right? If not, adjust your lever freeplay and clutch arm freeplay. Noise will likely go away. -WD |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by Greg_650 on 04/16/05 at 07:39:13 Michael wrote:
Ah, let me think....no. Is there like any chance that you can ride it around the block without a helmet? That way, maybe you pin-point the source of the noise a little better. Just because it coincides with the clutch means very little because when you pull in the clutch you are removing all of the engine loads from the bike, in general. BTW - If the belt was too tight and if that could cause damage, I would think that the greatest impact would be on the front pulley drive shaft bearing and the rear pulley wheel bearing....not the clutch, which is mounted on the end of a completely different transmission shaft. So, I don't think that you have to worry about any direct connection between the belt and clutch...go ride carefully around the block without a helmet and let us know. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by Michael on 04/16/05 at 09:06:20 Greg I rode it around the block without a helmet, and can't seem to tell exactly what side the whine is coming from. All I know is it is coming from the center of the bike, (engine area). I suppose being partially deaf in my left ear doesn't help.....LOL I am going to take WD's suggestion and adjust the clutch cable, as it hasn't been done since i replaced the adjuster and boot, about a year ago. will try to get to it today, if I can. I don't see how that would be the problem, but any suggestions are taken seriously, as I know very little about this stuff. Anything is possible. Cheers Michael |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by Greg_650 on 04/16/05 at 11:20:43 Michael wrote:
You can adjust the cable, but all I was really saying is that if there is a whine coming from the clutch that it wasn't caused by the belt. Hope it works though. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by Michael on 04/16/05 at 11:55:08 Well guess what? It is not the clutch after all. I had my bro take the bike for a spin, and he came back grinning. He tells me it is the belt chirping . I once again took a ride, and i believe he is correct. With my said hearing loss, I misdiagonosed. I leaned way back on the bike, and it is definetly the back end...... I guess nothing but trial and error will fix this problem, but I am quite relieved. Obviously during my belt /wheel alignment, I still have it off kilter. ..I am just relieved that it is a simple fix.. Perhaps it may be one of those things, I have to put up with, but the noise will be oh that much sweeter, knowing it is not engine related. W.D. and Greg.thanks for your help...you guys ROCK........will keep you posted. cheers Michael |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by Bluejeanz on 04/16/05 at 15:04:19 I've been following this closely, because I started noticing what sounds like the exact same noise on my bike. I rode for a good while today and the noise seems to increase as I roll the throttle and never lets up, no matter how warm the bike gets. This just started a day or two ago and I haven't changed anything on the bike. I did change the oil today (all by myself!) but that wasn't it... Anyway...let me know if adjusting the belt helps. Should I need to adjust my belt if the bike only has 1800 miles on it and nothing has been done to it or either tire? |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by WD on 04/16/05 at 20:26:57 Bluejeanz, the belt has to break in just like anyother mechanical component. At 1800 miles, you should check and adjust the throttle, rear brake,and clutch cables, verify the belt tension, and double check the belt alignment. The factory sets the tension recommendation WAY too tight. The dealers follow the factory recommendation, and likely use the swingarm alignment marks, which DO NOT line up side to side. Loosen the belt off until you can twist it as I describe. Alignment is a pain in the butt. Put the bike up on a milk crate. Put the trans in nuetral. Roll the wheel backwards while playing with the alignment/tensioner screws until the belt stays centered. Then repeat with the wheel going forwards. This is a minimum 3 person job, two to steady the bike, one to work the tools and check the belt tracking. Unfortunately, the next time you ride the bike, the tracking will change, the swingarm is flexible, not much, but it is, and the flex will change the belt tracking. ALL belt drive bikes do this. If you have a good ruler, set the cable freeplay 1/64th to 1/32 of an inch TIGHTER than the manual calls for. After the third adjustment, the cable will stop stretching. As for the belt, if you can twist it 90 degrees, and it stays in the pulleys without "skipping", that's about the best you can do. The belt should go 40K miles this way, will go a lot fewer per the factory directions. -WD |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by Bluejeanz on 04/17/05 at 04:59:22 Wow...that's a lot of information I didn't know...okay, I sort of knew some of it from reading here. But thanks! I'm printing this out for reference. I appreciate the detail. Guess I know what we'll be doing for the next day or two.... |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by Michael on 04/17/05 at 06:35:38 Bluejeanz I won't be tackeling my belt/tire adjusting for a couple of days. busy schedule, but will keep you posted on how it goes. cheers Michael |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by Michael on 04/18/05 at 23:23:51 Bluejeanz: After several trial and error sessions, a few curse words, and skinned knuckles, I finally got the darn thing balanced. The whine/chirping is gone, for now at least. I found that lining up the belt, and balancing the wheel is is sort of a happy medium thing. You will never get both exactly perfect, due to the fact that the belt stretches somewhat, due to use. I got them pretty close, and she rides like a dream. Even though you can adjust the belt with the adjusters, and have it perfect tension, and balance, tightning the axel nut throws it off again, and even makes the belt tighter. The secret is, leave it a bit slacker than you want to, before tightning. I also found that letting the belt run on the left side of the pully by a hair, will center it after axel nut is tightened. I laid a ruler down on the floor under the raised wheel. stood over it and adjusted the line of sight, and made sure the wheel turned in an even line. I did this by manually turning the wheel while looking down to my ruler/point of reference, and doing the same with the engine running, and in first gear. Hope this helps cheers Michael |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by Bluejeanz on 04/19/05 at 19:19:48 Michael Thanks for the notes. I'm probably going to tackle that this weekend (weather permitting). I appreciate all the notes, comments, and help everyone has given here. I'll report back on how everything goes. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by WD on 04/19/05 at 21:12:15 Just take your time. Everyone learns at a different rate. Don't sweat getting everything perfect the first try. There's fudge room built into the figures given by the books and by me. As long as the belt is somewhat centered, and doesn't hop out of the rear pulley, you'll be fine. If the throttle will open and close smoothly, without a loop of slack in the cable, you'll be fine. For the clutch, if the hand lever will close fully (when you let off of it, meaning it goes forward), and the lever on the engine moves freely, you'll be fine. Service manuals and such are considered CYA publications. ;D -WD |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by Bluejeanz on 04/20/05 at 11:16:27 Okay...here's the truth... I coped out. I didn't fix it. My hubby went out of town, and I ran down the street to the Powersports place and played the helpless female. The guy there adjusted my belt four times before he got it just right, but it's perfect now and the squeal is completely gone. I stood there in my Joe Rocket jacket with my helmet under my arm and watched with big ole brown eyes while he made the adjustments. Should the problem reoccur, I think I have a good mental image of how to fix it now. I smiled real sweet-like and he charged me $15. Money well spent in my books! Sorry guys. Thanks for the advice and I will probably revisit this thread if it happens again, but for now, I'm all set -- and I know... I cheated. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by sluggo on 04/20/05 at 11:34:31 flaunting the funbags, it's a well know practice ;D glad it worked for you. i've tried it, but the ole "man tits' just don't seem to work as well. :( i have found that a good attitude and humor works well for me. ;D |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by Michael on 04/20/05 at 15:28:12 Bluejeanz wrote:
Hey.....confession time........I had the guy who installed my tire, change the spark plug, because I didn't wanna deal with the 'tank issue". He only charged 10 bucks, including the plug............I pictured myself standing over the bike with a 10 pound sledgehammer, and thought I better let the pro's do it!.......LOL cheers Michael |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by Bluejeanz on 04/20/05 at 15:53:48 Yep that's sortof why I did it. My son asked how much it would have cost if I had done it. I said $4,000. He looked at me funny, and I said, "Cause I probably would have beat the thing with daddy's tire iron and tossed it in a ditch. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by Michael on 04/21/05 at 11:58:41 Bluejeanz I see from the picture gallery/map. that you are in Maine. Where abouts in Maine are you. I plan on getting down that way this summer.Probable late july, or early August. I am in New Brunswick, Canada, a little over one hour from the St Stephen/Maine border. Perhaps we could do lunch, or coffee. cheers Michael |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by sluggo on 04/21/05 at 13:12:39 clutch whine, doesn't that go with brake cheese. :o |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by Bluejeanz on 04/21/05 at 17:21:57 Michael wrote:
Cool! I'm in central Maine, near Augusta. I'm about 4 hours from Quebec City, but I think that's the other way from you... |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by Oklahoma_Mike on 04/21/05 at 17:49:32 diddo with the tire iron several years ago I had a fart (ford) that met that fait >:( I sent it to hell with a Louiville Slugger. Dam thing was out to get me 8) |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by Michael on 04/21/05 at 19:35:48 bluejeanz Ahhhhhh ! Augusta. A bit out of the way for me. I keep forgetting maine is such a big state. cheers Michael |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by Bluejeanz on 04/22/05 at 06:42:00 OT: Useless trivia Hey Micheal, did you know that Maine is the only one of the 50 states to ever declare war on another country? We declared war on New Brunswick over boundary lines in 1839 in what is referred to as the Aroostook War. It seems that in the 1830's the territory was settled by gangs of rival lumberjacks....that just makes me laugh everytime I see or hear it ;D |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by Greg_650 on 04/22/05 at 08:05:03 Michael wrote:
I have sat back through this subject, but now I need to add my 2 cents. People just tend to spend too much time stressing about the rear wheel. It isn't their fault, but it isn't that complex. 1. Starting with the belt loose, another trick is to leave the axle nut "snugged" on the adjusters and then use the adjusters to pull the belt to the desired tension. They will pull the axle when it is still snug (snug = about one turn from tight). And then you only turn the nut while holding the axle bolt stationery with a second wrench. This keeps the bolt from "walking" in the swing arm hole. 2. And I think this whole "belt alignment" issue is a bit over worked. Just for speculation, let me ask "Why is there no mention of such a detailed process in the MOM or the SSM?" Answer: Because the alignment isn't that critical. The belt will always rub slightly on one side or the other of the pulley, no matter how much you mess with it... It is simple mechanics...If you reach down and grab the pulley you will see that it will move from side to side even with the axle tight. This is because of the play in the drive bushings and the internal slop in the pulley bearing. As well, there is only one bearing in the pulley, and one bearing can never be perfectly rigid (the wheel hub has 2). Look at the picture below...all the spacers ONLY position the inner bearing races on the axle bolt. If they positioned the outer races, the wheel wouldn't turn. What we have is engineered play in the pulley and out at the belt diameter the play is magnified So with this movement, it is simply impossible to get the belt to track dead nuts in the pulley. Just position it equally on both sides with the stamped marks on the swingarm and go... 3. I believe that the "belt tension" issue is also over done. New bikes come with a gage but for those without a gage they use the "90 degree twist test". Neither method is rocket science and that's because the only critical factor is having the belt loose enough. Fact: if the belt is too tight, it squeaks, whines, and chirps. And concerning the idea that the belt gets tighter after it is adjusted...you should simply adjust the tension with the wheel on the ground with the bike vertical (2 x 4 under sidestand). Why? I have 2 answers: 1) You don't ride it that way. In normal operation the wheel is on the ground :) 2) Geometry....the 2 centerlines created between front pulley and the rear axle and the swingarm pivot and the rear axle are not exacly on the same axis. When the swingarm moves up and down those 2 centerlines do not follow the same arc. Plain and simple. The 2 pivot points are not the same so therefore as the shocks are compressed, the belt gets tighter. When you sit on it, it get tighter!!! So here's the scenerio...You jack up the bike with the wheel off the ground, adjust the tension ever so carefully, and when you set it down, it is suddenly too tight. OR you don't notice and you go for a ride and it squeaks. What happened? It is a misnomer that the tension should be adjusted with the wheel off the ground. The swingarm needs to be more horizontal which puts those 2 invisible centerlines more inline. Summary? Adjust the wheel alignment equally with the adjusters and adjust the tension with the wheel on the ground using the gage or the 90 degree twist. Start bike and ride. http://home.comcast.net/~gmdinusa/RearWheel01web.jpg PS - if you really wonder about the pivot centerlines, just look at serious motocross bike that runs a chain. They run without tensioners and with the chain loose. Why? because they are engineered with the sprocket and swingarm pivot very close to the same centerlines with the rear axle....you can't have changes in tension with a rear wheel that may travel 10 inches or so. Right? |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by sluggo on 04/22/05 at 10:24:26 greg addressed the mechincs of it now i will address the social engineering aspect. generally with machines odd noises are bad. the belt issue makes odd noises, so our mind tells us something is wrong, when in fact they are not. bottom line adjust it as outlined and ride the heck out of it, and don't worry about the noise. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by Greg_650 on 04/22/05 at 10:56:11 Oh, but to get off my soapbox and address the social engineering of it would require that I too admit to being worried about the squeaking belt issue...and I was once. I too have jacked the bike up and attempted to center the belt. I too have heard the squeak and wondered "what the heck?" I too have actually had someone sit on my bike while I felt the belt tension...and that is when the mechanical truth revealed itself to me.... Everyone tends to be so worried about a loose belt....a belt that will slip and tear itself to shreds when we are miles from home. But I think there is more to worry about with a tight belt though.....one that will overheat, put extra load on bearings and bushings and also make you sound socially strange when you would really like to sound so cool. 8) |
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Title: Re: Clutch Whine.......UGH!!!!! Post by Michael on 04/22/05 at 20:07:40 Bluejeanz wrote:
LMAO.Toooooo funny......Was Paul Bunion Involved? I think I remember a huge statue of him in Bangor...lol Seriously though. I think I have heard bits and pieces of the tale. I must Google it, just for the heck of it. cheers Michael |
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