SuzukiSavage.com /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Drilled Disks /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1117149656 Message started by DW4799 on 05/26/05 at 16:20:56

Title: Drilled Disks Post by DW4799 on 05/26/05 at 16:20:56 Has anyone tried drilling the front disk to stop the squeek.

Title: Re: Drilled Disks Post by Greg_650 on 05/26/05 at 16:40:00 That won't fix the cause of the squeak, but it may help the symptoms.  Though I haven't done it on my Savage, I drilled my double disks myself on my XS850 using a rotary table to get the spacing even.  Just make sure to deburr and chamfer the holes when you do, or you'll eat your pads in a hurry.

Title: Re: Drilled Disks Post by lancer on 05/26/05 at 19:04:59 As long as we are talking about discs, I have been wondering about a disc brake system swap...or more precisely, are the mounting brackets for the brake system that are on the fork tubes standard in size?  I mean, is there a standard size for all or most bikes or does each manufacturer have their own size?   Anyone know?

Title: Re: Drilled Disks Post by -=G-Star=- on 05/26/05 at 19:30:10 When mine start squeaking, I do a few real hard slow speed stops.  That seems to clean them up for a while. Also, when I take it the diy carwash, after the rest is clean, I run a high power spray (rinse not soap) down between the brakes and it seems to alo keep the squeaks away.

Title: Re: Drilled Disks Post by WD on 05/26/05 at 21:12:59 Most motorcycle caliper mounts are similar. Are any close to the Savage? Not that I've seen... trust me I've looked. Single piston calipers are a joke compared to modern designs. They work, but a dual piston set-up would be better. 6 piston linear force application is the best out there. -WD

Title: Re: Drilled Disks Post by Kropatchek on 05/27/05 at 01:23:28 Greg_650 wrote: That won't fix the cause of the squeak, but it may help the symptoms.  Though I haven't done it on my Savage, I drilled my double disks myself on my XS850 using a rotary table to get the spacing even.  Just make sure to deburr and chamfer the holes when you do, or you'll eat your pads in a hurry. EBC supplies a drilled rotor ( the only aftermarket available as far as I know). Fitted the rotor without deburring and chamfering the holes. Inner brakepad ( sintered type) worn to the metal in less the 100Km. So went back to the original Suzuki part. Greetz Kropatchek ;D

Title: Re: Drilled Disks Post by klx650sm2002 on 05/27/05 at 02:30:10 On my KLX the standard sloted discs didn't squeak and neither have the drilled EBC's but the EBC's are more powerfull. Clive W  :D

Title: Re: Drilled Disks Post by Greg_650 on 05/27/05 at 05:29:15 Kropatchek wrote: EBC supplies a drilled rotor ( the only aftermarket available as far as I know). Fitted the rotor without deburring and chamfering the holes. Inner brakepad ( sintered type) worn to the metal in less the 100Km. So went back to the original Suzuki part. Greetz Kropatchek ;D That's why I suggested the deburr and chamfer....Hard to believe that EBC did that, too.

Title: Re: Drilled Disks Post by klx650sm2002 on 05/27/05 at 08:43:25 Hey Greg Well done on going past the 2000 mark. Clive W  :D

Title: Re: Drilled Disks Post by Red_Wine on 05/27/05 at 13:13:31 I did that on my previous bike, a 1986 Yamaha XS250, and the brakes did behave a bit better, but I did it for increasing braking power, not squeaking.... RW

Title: Re: Drilled Disks Post by Greg_650 on 05/27/05 at 13:19:09 klx650sm2002 wrote: Hey Greg Well done on going past the 2000 mark. Clive W  :D Thanks. Does that mean that I need to "get a life?" ::)

Title: Nerd alert - non-nerds move on. Post by bobo383 on 05/28/05 at 06:43:03 Oklahoma_Mike wrote: In simple terms cooler brakes work better. As the brakes are applied the exterior of the pad glazes over. This glazed layer (the black powder from the brakes that forms on the vehicles wheels) is a few microns thick but it is very smooth as opposed to the normally abrasive material on the pad.  This smooth layer inhibits the friction that is used to stop the bike and it is normally held in-between the pad and rotor until you release the brake. With holes the glazed material is allowed to escape thus allowing abrasive material to come in contact with the rotor. Not to mention since the rotor and pad are cooler it takes a little longer to glaze over. Michael  8) This is a very good simple explanation.  I actually majored in physics back in the 14th century (1985-1991), and we studied lots of heat related phenomena stuff. The nerdy pocket-protector physics goes like this. Remember Newton's laws, one of which was "energy is niether created nor destroyed, just converted from one form to another?" A bike (mass=m) moving at a certain speed (velocity=v) has a certain kinetic energy(E), I think it's E=1/2mv2 if I remember right.  More speed = more energy, put in there by the motor which converts the fuel&air's combustion energy to mechanical energy (and noise and heat).  The bike's mass is constant, it don't change, so when we are moving the energy is directly related to the square of the velocity.  E~v2 Brakes slow the bike down.  So where does the energy go?  It ain't destroyed.  It gets converted to HEAT, and the change in temp is abbreviated (deltaT, or dT since I can't make a greek "delta" on the keyboard).  Brakes introduce friction which heats up the pads and rotor (also bearings, tires, etc. etc. etc.).  These have mass (m) and a thermal coefficient (c).   As long as we are not melting or boiling the parts, the energy(E)-to-heat (dT)relationship is E=mc(dT).  Thermal coeff (c) is constant, it don't change, so change in energy is directly proportional to the change in temp (dT) -- E~dT The E from change in speed and the E from dT are the same E, for braking purposes, so the change in temp of the brake parts is directly proportional to the SQUARE of the change in velocity(v):  dT~(dV)2 You can see at least mathematically why things get hot so fast.  You can also tell it when you burn your fingers on the hot parts or see the smoke from the brakes. The deltaT has to be dissipated, or the brakes will get red, glaze over, oxidize, anneal, and eventually melt.  There comes a point where the brakes can't physically get any hotter till parts melt (this is called latent heat of fusion).  At this point, we can no longer convert mechanical energy to heat energy and the brakes don't work! The closer we get to this point, the less the brakes work.  In racing, they call this "brake fade", and it's a big problem they deal with by going to drilled rotors.  The drilled rotors increase the surface area and turbulence of the air, cooling the steel faster, and lessening the brake fade. We don't see this very often on the street, but it's still happening to a lesser degree.

Title: Re: Nerd alert - non-nerds move on. Post by Oklahoma_Mike on 05/28/05 at 08:40:16 bobo383 wrote: This is a very good simple explanation.  I actually majored in physics back in the 14th century (1985-1991), and we studied lots of heat related phenomena stuff. The nerdy pocket-protector physics goes like this. Remember Newton's laws, one of which was "energy is niether created nor destroyed, just converted from one form to another?" A bike (mass=m) moving at a certain speed (velocity=v) has a certain kinetic energy(E), I think it's E=1/2mv2 if I remember right.  More speed = more energy, put in there by the motor which converts the fuel&air's combustion energy to mechanical energy (and noise and heat).  The bike's mass is constant, it don't change, so when we are moving the energy is directly related to the square of the velocity.  E~v2 Brakes slow the bike down.  So where does the energy go?  It ain't destroyed.  It gets converted to HEAT, and the change in temp is abbreviated (deltaT, or dT since I can't make a greek "delta" on the keyboard).  Brakes introduce friction which heats up the pads and rotor (also bearings, tires, etc. etc. etc.).  These have mass (m) and a thermal coefficient (c).   As long as we are not melting or boiling the parts, the energy(E)-to-heat (dT)relationship is E=mc(dT).  Thermal coeff (c) is constant, it don't change, so change in energy is directly proportional to the change in temp (dT) -- E~dT The E from change in speed and the E from dT are the same E, for braking purposes, so the change in temp of the brake parts is directly proportional to the SQUARE of the change in velocity(v):  dT~(dV)2 You can see at least mathematically why things get hot so fast.  You can also tell it when you burn your fingers on the hot parts or see the smoke from the brakes. The deltaT has to be dissipated, or the brakes will get red, glaze over, oxidize, anneal, and eventually melt.  There comes a point where the brakes can't physically get any hotter till parts melt (this is called latent heat of fusion).  At this point, we can no longer convert mechanical energy to heat energy and the brakes don't work! The closer we get to this point, the less the brakes work.  In racing, they call this "brake fade", and it's a big problem they deal with by going to drilled rotors.  The drilled rotors increase the surface area and turbulence of the air, cooling the steel faster, and lessening the brake fade. We don't see this very often on the street, but it's still happening to a lesser degree. OUCH my head hurts! just kidding. bravo Bobo! with the people we have here we should put together a Biz. 8)

Title: Re: Nerd alert - non-nerds move on. Post by Greg_650 on 05/28/05 at 11:51:52 bobo383 wrote: This is a very good simple explanation.  I actually majored in physics back in the 14th century (1985-1991), and we studied lots of heat related phenomena stuff. The nerdy pocket-protector physics goes like this. Remember Newton's laws, one of which was "energy is niether created nor destroyed, just converted from one form to another?" A bike (mass=m) moving at a certain speed (velocity=v) has a certain kinetic energy(E), I think it's E=1/2mv2 if I remember right.  More speed = more energy, put in there by the motor which converts the fuel&air's combustion energy to mechanical energy (and noise and heat).  The bike's mass is constant, it don't change, so when we are moving the energy is directly related to the square of the velocity.  E~v2 Brakes slow the bike down.  So where does the energy go?  It ain't destroyed.  It gets converted to HEAT, and the change in temp is abbreviated (deltaT, or dT since I can't make a greek "delta" on the keyboard).  Brakes introduce friction which heats up the pads and rotor (also bearings, tires, etc. etc. etc.).  These have mass (m) and a thermal coefficient (c).   As long as we are not melting or boiling the parts, the energy(E)-to-heat (dT)relationship is E=mc(dT).  Thermal coeff (c) is constant, it don't change, so change in energy is directly proportional to the change in temp (dT) -- E~dT The E from change in speed and the E from dT are the same E, for braking purposes, so the change in temp of the brake parts is directly proportional to the SQUARE of the change in velocity(v):  dT~(dV)2 You can see at least mathematically why things get hot so fast.  You can also tell it when you burn your fingers on the hot parts or see the smoke from the brakes. The deltaT has to be dissipated, or the brakes will get red, glaze over, oxidize, anneal, and eventually melt.  There comes a point where the brakes can't physically get any hotter till parts melt (this is called latent heat of fusion).  At this point, we can no longer convert mechanical energy to heat energy and the brakes don't work! The closer we get to this point, the less the brakes work.  In racing, they call this "brake fade", and it's a big problem they deal with by going to drilled rotors.  The drilled rotors increase the surface area and turbulence of the air, cooling the steel faster, and lessening the brake fade. We don't see this very often on the street, but it's still happening to a lesser degree. In conclusion:  Drill equally spaced holes in your rotor if you want, but don't drill too many.  Brake pads can't grab air  ::)

Title: Re: Drilled Disks Post by bobo383 on 05/28/05 at 12:40:25 And drill the pads, too. :o  Let me know how it works out... ;D

Title: Re: Drilled Disks Post by Oklahoma_Mike on 05/28/05 at 12:44:03 bobo383 wrote: And drill the pads, too. :o  Let me know how it works out... ;D hahahaha Bobo you fricking kill me!!!!!! ;D

Title: Re: Drilled Disks Post by DW4799 on 06/01/05 at 10:26:09 Thanks for all the responses. Sorry I didn't have a chance to reply earlier. Here's the explanation that was given to me. Drilling the disk does a number of things. Two of them have an effect on squealing. First, when the pad slides over the disk it starts the disk to vibrate which causes the squealing sound we here. When the disk is drilled it interrupts the surface enough to reduce the vibration harmonics, usually enough to stop the squeal. Second, the holes cause the pads to be cleaned every time they pass the pad, something Oklahoma_Mike brought up. As far as reducing the braking power is concerned, if an excessive number of holes are not drilled then the reduction will be minimal. The Savage brakes are good enough for this to be done without even noticing the difference.

Title: Re: Drilled Disks Post by bobo383 on 06/01/05 at 19:43:49 I thought the Savage brakes were good till I got a sportbike.  No comparison.

Title: Re: Drilled Disks Post by bobo383 on 06/01/05 at 19:54:10 Back to the original post - I stopped the squeek on the front brakes by putting white grease behind the pads (against the calipers). I had bought pads, thinking I needed them, but the pads were still very thick.  I sanded them to break the glaze and greased 'em - on the metal side only.  Re-assembled and now only the rear brake squeeks.

Title: Re: Drilled Disks Post by Reelthing on 06/01/05 at 21:52:28 '95 rear screams pretty good sometimes - if i take it out and hard brake it a few times it goes quite for awhile - also a little water will wash out the dust - or at least move it around - need to pull it apart one of these weekends when it rains! Looked and thought over the EBC rotors - may still do it but sounds like they need a "mod" out of the box!

Title: Re: Drilled Disks Post by Oklahoma_Mike on 06/02/05 at 03:38:04 bobo383 wrote: Back to the original post - I stopped the squeek on the front brakes by putting white grease behind the pads (against the calipers). I had bought pads, thinking I needed them, but the pads were still very thick.  I sanded them to break the glaze and greased 'em - on the metal side only.  Re-assembled and now only the rear brake squeeks. MY 87 rear brake does the same thing :( 8)

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