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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> My 96 Savage died :( HELP! /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1118804600 Message started by Jim_R on 06/14/05 at 20:03:20 |
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Title: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by Jim_R on 06/14/05 at 20:03:20 Hey everyone, 1st I wanna butter y'all up and say that I have been reading this forum and the heise-workstations.de for like 6 months now and you guys really know your stuff. Ok enough brown nosing and down to the problem. I was riding one day and my bike started sputtering, really rough. Then I drove it back home, and took out the brass slug for the idle mixture screw adjusted it 1/4 a turn out, changed the oil and filter and it ran like a dream. I was suprised at its power and I was so happy until I pulled into my driveway because it just cut off. would not start again, after crying silently, and reading every page of our forum IM kinda fustrated. I thought it might be a bad spark plug so I read ur forum , disconnected both hoses and speedo cable,took the tank off, changed the plug. I tested to make sure I got spark and after getting shocked with some fake rubber insulated plyers and I put it a new nkg spark plug. Still wouldnt start, not even on prime. So i took off the tank, injected 1/2 to 1 cc of gas in the sparkplug hole, reinstall the plug, put it on prime for 2 mins, prayed and it still doesnt start. I can hear the starter turning, and I thought maybe the problem could be the compression cable, which I dunno what it looks like or anything, or maybe my carb is flooded. Can anyone help me. I have no manual or anything, except good looks :) Im thinking it maybe my carb being flooded or the compression cable but where are the fuses located just in case? Sorry to be such a pain in the butt. ps thank you in advance |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by DavidV on 06/14/05 at 20:48:33 Fuses are under the seat on the right side (as you sit on it - two fuses; 20 amp each). The wiring harness just stops in a small block on the frame rail; that's where you look for the fuses. Dunno why it won't run, though; hopefully smarter folks will chime in with ideas. And check eBay for a Clymer manual. It's worth having around. |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by Greg_650 on 06/15/05 at 06:59:58 Well, if the starter turns over, and you have normal operation of all lights...forget about fuses. They are okay. You got shocked by the plug. Good (for the bike). You have a spark, too. Place a small glass jar under the carb, and loosen the drain screw on the bottom of the bowl. Does gas come out? Is there dirt in the gas? Are there any "water bubbles" in the gas? Oh, even real rubber insulated pliers will allow you to get shocked. The high tension voltage from the coil can actually travel on the outside of the pliers...especially if the plug is not really grounded well and your other hand is touching the bike...you were the ground. |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by Red_Wine on 06/15/05 at 08:30:23 Hi pal, I'll dare give the most common advice here when a bike doesn't run, but the engine turns. Check the carb completely (jets, needles, gas passages, springs, slides, everything), you may have a clogged something and you are either getting too much gas or too much air. Also take a look at the spark plug tip, does it look wet, or black or carbonized? it can tell you somethings I'm not familiar with, but you'll have additional info for the diagnosis. Good luck. RW |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by diesel on 06/15/05 at 21:55:01 give the carb a small, and I do mean small, shot of starting fluid and crank it. if it fires a couple of times, timing and ing, a ok. you gots a fuel problem. if it don't fire, you gots more than fuel problems. I know, this is not too safe a pratcice, be careful. spray, then crank, DON'T spray while cranking. |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by Jim_R on 06/16/05 at 13:05:56 Ok lets see, I drained the carb and the gas looked fine without bubbles. I tried starting fluid and it popped very faintly hehe. I think the compression valve is stuck or the engine is toast. I bought a Clymer manual last night and maybe i can figure out how to adjust it. The new spark plug is clean and I even drained the entire gas tank just to make sure it wasnt bad gas. I think I saw the compression valve cable on top of the head on the left side under the tank, but Im not gonna fool with it until I get the manual.. I do wanna say thanks to all the friendly people that tried to help me AND pray my engine isnt toast haha. If it is I might get it rebuilt with an oversized piston, but I'd have to win the lotto 1st. |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by jim ruggiero on 06/16/05 at 14:33:04 Sounds like the decompression value is out of adjustment and or not closing properly. I would wait until you get the repair manual if I were you. Good Luck |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by bentwheel on 06/16/05 at 19:06:20 Click on the link below for instructions on how to adjust your de-compression solenoid which actuates your exhaust valve on startup. Don't miss any of the steps, especially setting the engine to TDCC.These instructions are clearer than any manual you may buy. I am not so sure that this is your problem, but it will give you a start on your project. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=RubberSideDown;action=display;num=1110163653;start=1#1 |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by Greg_650 on 06/16/05 at 19:44:46 Jim_R wrote:
Okay...well, you checked the gas, but that was just the first step....I was waiting for that before you continue (unfortunately I can't be here all the time)....checking to see that the carb HAS gas and Good gas was the point. You found no dirt or water so THEN we need to move on to, IS the gas getting in the engine as it should?....even as Red Wine says, check the carb.... Forget decompression....they don't "Not Run" because the decompression isn't working. That is just an AID in starting the engine, but it will start even if it is totally out of adjustment. It will start anyway...after all it slightly opens the exhaust valves during starting to accomplish that, so what's the point.....? I hate the idea that people feel the need to waste a tank of gas or drain it when it isn't needed. So much extra work. Gas isn't as critical as some think, and a running engine (which it was) will comsume water without you even knowing it....There wasn't any dirt or water. So, did you have a good full bowl of gas when you drained it? Did it continue flowing or stop? Was the petc0ck turned to PRI or ON? (important to the flowing petc0ck issue). You said that you got shocked while holding the plug. Did you check the plug for wetness (as Red Wine said)? 3 things an engine needs: Air, Spark, Gas...that is it. All you got to figure is what has changed or stopped working. That is the key to troubleshooting an engine. Remember...the bike was running fine even before you messed with the brass plug and the idle mixture screw, and that didn't fix it. You injected gas/starting fluid (which may or may not work) but unless there is gas from the carb it still won't run. Go back and check to see that you have a good flow of gas from the petc0ck to the carb. Pull the hose off the carb and check that it pours out in the PRI position. Make sure that both hoses are connected correctly to the carb...Then check the spark again, but make sure that the plug, not you, is grounded. And you aren't a "pain in the butt" 'cause we like this stuff here ;D |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by Jim_R on 06/16/05 at 21:49:10 Gas flowed when I switched it to primary and my petcock seems to be working fine. The new plug was wet but it looked like clean gas. The starting spray only made it chug like 2 times very faintly, could be mild hallucinations. I had plenty of gas and I just wanted to be sure it wasnt the gas because I filled up and it acted really rough after I filled it. I limped it back home and changed the oil, oil filter, and did the idle screw adjustment like 1/4 of a turn out. It ran like new and I was so excited that my bike felt so strong. After turning into the driveway it died haha. I was thinking it could be the decompression valve because maybe its stuck in an open position or the solenoid? But since u said it only assists the starting process ur prob right. Since I dont have any experience in taking apart carbs Im kinda scared. I took off the bottom part to make sure the float wasnt stuck or something. Does the clymer manual show u step by step to clean the carb? I would hate to mess that up. Do any of yall live near me? haha. Do u think it could be the timing? I doubt it but then again I dont even know how to check the timing. |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by WD on 06/17/05 at 00:23:37 Best guess (cause it happens alot) is that the fuel hose is old, and you sucked a tiny piece of rubber into the pilot jet. Drop the bowl, pull the float, and unscrew the jet. Spray some aerosol carb cleaner or contact cleaner through it. Reassemble. Put on prime, fire up, go for a ride (works about 80% of the time). If the bike was out of time, trust me, you'd know. The only way these bikes go out of time is if the timing chain stretches and/or snaps. Period. Not like the good old days of breaker points...I miss those... Happy tinkering. -WD |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by slavy on 06/17/05 at 08:02:07 I don't think that You have to mess with the decompressor. The bike died when riding. Charge the battery FULLY. Take the sp. plug out and crank the engine couple of times to blow everything out. Put some sp. plug that You know for sure it works , even if it is used sp. plug from different bike. Spray some carb. cleaner/don't be shy/ in the air box and try to start. If it refuses to start I'd focus on the sp. plug cap. With the carb. cleaner we eliminate the factor "carburetor" unless Your engine gets flooded immidiately, that I don't believe is the case. Good luck! |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by Tommy Spratlin on 06/17/05 at 12:35:50 Before doing anything major, try running it with the petc0ck on PRI. Does it run? If it does, switch it back to ON with the engine running and see if it eventually cuts off. Try the same thing with the RES position. If it cuts off, you probably have a vacuum problem. There is a vacuum hose on the right side of the carb that connects to the petc0ck (left side). It may be kinked. If it is, pull it off the carb, route the hose so that the curve in the hose is as gentle (not sharp) as possible where it connects to the carb and then pull the spring over the hose where it is connected to the carb and make sure it stays in position. If it isn't the hose, it may be the diaphram in the petc0ck. Either way, you can run using the PRI position, just switch to ON when you turn the bike of to prevent gas running down through the carb, into the engine, and into your oil (which probably won't happen, but could). Sorry if someone already covered this - I just scanned the messages so I may have missed it. I've had this problem before and is was a kinked vacuum hose - a quick 2-second fix once I figured it out |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by bentwheel on 06/17/05 at 12:57:47 slavy wrote:
But make darn sure it is not a longer plug. It could strike the piston causing you more grief. |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by Greg_650 on 06/17/05 at 13:32:02 Jim_R wrote:
Explain "limped it back home", please. How did it act, and how did you make it go? Quote:
Sure bring it on over :) Quote:
The timing is fixed on the Savage. Don't worry about that. So, you opened the bowl drain, turned the petc0ck to PRI and gas came out of the bottom? Right? Were you able to check the spark plug without being shocked? |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by Jim_R on 06/18/05 at 19:54:21 ok I started over AGAIN for the 6th time at least. I took off the gas tank and made sure it had spark. It was very strong and I could see the actual spark so I put the gas tank back on and removed the bottom of the carb and switched to primary and gas did flow thru the carb.. I fully charged the battery and tried to start it. It makes a occasional chug that is very soft. Im thinking my carb is messed up because I've got spark and I removed my air filter. I blew thru the carb vent tubes and made sure they werent clogged. I even bought a new gas line and connectors for it and the vacum tube. The vacum tube looks brand new and no holes are in it. I tried to start it on primary. I tried to start it on regular. tried to start it with the choke on and off. Heck i felt like I was preforming cpr when i was blowing in the carb vent hose haha. I know my decompression valve is working because I disconnected my starter and I could hear it engage. My float in my carb is working properly and im waiting on my manual so I can take the carb off and clean it. I did see a hose unplugged under the bike that looks like it some kind of drain hose. It was as big as the fuel line and Ill take a pic of it tomorrow. Im not giving up because heck my bike is a 95 with only 7k miles on it. It ran strong before it quit. Lets see when I got gas and limped it home it was driving really rough. When I engaged the throttle it would sputter and act like it was starving for air or something. one second it would bog down and the next it would launch forward. very rough and kinda scarry when traffic is behind you and u cant maintain a speed. Im thikning somehow the air delivery is not getting to the carb somehow.. I hope this helps and sorry I didnt post yesterday I couldnt work on it. But I will tomorrow if you have any suggestions. |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by Greg_650 on 06/19/05 at 08:50:16 Jim_R wrote:
Well, forget that. Air is getting to your engine. That is just a matter of physics...valves open, piston go down, air go in...and provided there is oxygen in your immediate area that should be sufficient. If you are sure of the spark, then think about the carb. Have you opened the top of the carb yet? Might need to just go ahead and remove the carb to clean it out. The 2 hoses hanging down under the engine are the battery vent (smaller) and the air box drain (larger). The drain has a plug in it too. Pull plug and drain goop... |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by defrag on 06/19/05 at 10:41:29 hey there, im going through the same thing with my bike! i just removed the drain screw on the bottom of the bowl, clean gas came out. however... even though i had the petcock on prime no more gas was coming out of the drainhole. what does this mean? |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by Greg_650 on 06/19/05 at 10:47:31 First off, how much clean gas came out? A bowl full or a lot less. If it was too low to be venturied out, you are technically out of gas. You could have a stuck float or crap in the float needle valve or a bunch of stuff in the bowl drain too. Or the petc0ck could have a problem. Pull the fuel hose off the carb, and see if gas is getting to the carb, first. |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by defrag on 06/19/05 at 10:54:29 full bowl came out, fuel flows out when i pull the hose but not when i pull the drain plug. also it doesnt pour out of that hose, its a small stream |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by Greg_650 on 06/19/05 at 11:04:45 It really isn't gonna "pour" out. Most likely that stream is more than enough flow to keep the bowl full...the bike's good on gas... Hmmm...So, gas go in, but gas no come out. Mathematically that would be either 1 + 1 = 2 or 1 - 1 = 0. Right? :P Seriously, try tapping on the bowl with a screwdriver handle and see if gas flows or you might want to just pull off the bowl and have a look. |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by defrag on 06/19/05 at 11:12:34 progress! i decided to start fiddling with the air/fuel screw, turned it almost all the way out and got it to turn on, idle for about 30 seconds then died. started up again a couple times for a few seconds then died again. im about to kill my batt so im letting it sit for a few mins before i go outside and meddle some more edit: the settings i have right now are, PRI and full choke and air/fuel almost all the way out. got a nice backfire too, scared the shiat outta me :o |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by Greg_650 on 06/19/05 at 12:22:24 Yes, but you already determined that you don't have gas in the carb bowl. So therefore full choke and the mixture screw turned rich have no gas to really work with anyway. After you find the problem you'll just have to turn the screw back :P |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by defrag on 06/19/05 at 12:26:57 i do have gas in the bowl. fuel is flowing from the petcock fine. battery just died though. have it on the charger and hopefully will be able to start messing around in a few hours. i believe my starter is pretty weak, i listened to some other audio clips and mine is ALOT slower than theirs. could a weak starter cause my battery to die all the time, well at least quicker than i would imagine it should. |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by Mr 650 on 06/19/05 at 13:33:11 It could be weak, but how old is the battery. You are not using a car charger are you? They will boil your battery and that will make it weak. |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by defrag on 06/19/05 at 15:05:01 brand new battery, im using a 1.5 amp trickle charger |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by rkutzner on 06/20/05 at 18:08:24 I have seen VERY similar symptoms occur on two ATVs and a dirt bike. When was the last time that your valve clearnces were adjusted? As the seats 'break in' or 'wear' or whatever you want to call it, the clearance between the rocker and valve (or cam/shim/bucket with overhead cam engines like a V-Force) GETS SMALLER, not larger as many think. Depending on how tight this clearance gets, the engine at a certain operating temp (sometimes right after startup) will freeze up because everything gets so tight as it heats up and expands and it literally stops the cam and engine from turning. Initially at higher rpms it will run and then die at idle. Eventually it won't run.... My friends V-Force only had about 50 hours on it brand new when it happened to him. He was rebuilding his carbs, looking at a $400 feul pump, shooting in the dark ;D, before it was mentioned to him to check his clearances. The exhaust valves on one cylinder had NO clearance! He adjusted and is now back to beating me on my Z400 ! This may or may not be the problem, but check the valve clearances before ripping everything apart. You need to learn to do this and do it every 2-4000 miles as basic maintenence. Good luck !!! |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by defrag on 06/21/05 at 18:07:45 sounds like an idea. today i put the batt back, i can get it to fire up on first try. however it seems to idle for about a min then cut out. then it has a hard time starting back up for any longer than a few seconds. i leave and come back about 15 mins later and shell start up and idle for a min or longer again seems like somethings heating up and causing the bike to cut out? edit: after re-reading your post. the valves seem like a probable item. if they heat up and then seize, sounds like whats happening to my bike. have you done this adjustment? i would have to order the feeler gauge but do i really need all those other tools or could i just get it done with some basic sockets/hand tools |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by WD on 06/21/05 at 21:45:27 You can do it with hand tools. Just some extra minor annoyance involved. Mine is pushing 13,200 miles without the valves being done. Starting to run like you describe...guess what I'm doing tomorrow if it isn't raining? -WD |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by defrag on 06/22/05 at 14:06:26 WD wrote:
true, mines on 12,500 and i doubt the previous owner ever did it. |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by Jim_R on 06/22/05 at 14:39:10 YAY i got my clymer Manual! My god that carb looks complicated hehe. I think Im gonna take it off and clean clean clean. Whats up with the non stock muffler on the front pic? tisk tisk |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by Greg_650 on 06/25/05 at 09:32:50 How did this turn out? ??? |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by Jim_R on 06/25/05 at 23:27:42 Well I felt like I tried as much as I could do without messing up my bike so I took it to the stealership. IM letting them deal with it while I deal with the bill. I didnt know what else to do. I'll let you guys know what happens and I'll defintely learn from this experience haha :) And I did want to say thanks for all the suggestions and help I received from the members. Sorry I had to wimp out hehe. |
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Title: Re: My 96 Savage died :( HELP! Post by WD on 06/25/05 at 23:40:52 Better to admit that it got the better of you this time than to try and muddle through. Sometimes it is better to bite the bullet, pony up the cash, and let a trained wrench have at it. Case in point, the shop I work at picked up a bike today for a couple hundred bucks. It needed a battery (Wal-mart, $24.95), a starter solenoid (Wal-mart $9, a Ford truck one works fine), and the carb center cable (four carb bike) adjusted, which takes about 3 minutes. The guy would still be riding it if he'd taken it to our repair guy 2 blocks away... on the other hand, picking up an 82 Honda CB750 Super Sport for a couple hundred bucks WAS a good deal...wonder if I can con the boss into selling it to me? -WD |
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