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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Tank Slap and Headshake /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1119928406 Message started by Suzuki_Sam on 06/27/05 at 20:13:26 |
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Title: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Suzuki_Sam on 06/27/05 at 20:13:26 Okay, WD brought these up and I, like Karen, had never heard of it. My husband installed a shield on my bike and I have not ridden with it yet. (I think it needs to be lowered a bit, it feels kind of like some of my vision is now obstructed.) I would prefer not to learn about tank slap the hard way, ;) so aside from WD's "what to do if this happens..." how do I do all I can to prevent it in the first place? Is there a minimum speed that this happens? |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by GITARZAN on 06/27/05 at 20:54:14 You'll usu. get some warning. At very high speed you may notice that the forks are wanting to wobble back and forth. That's a good sign to slow down a little. Keep forging ahead and they might really start slapping. Common sense will cover it (for most people). |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by sluggo on 06/27/05 at 21:04:19 GITARZAN wrote:
that's usually where the trouble begins. :o |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by WD on 06/27/05 at 22:35:09 I've pushed my Savage to the ragged edge (and beyond). The oscillation starts at roughly 100 mph, and by 105, you are through it. Trust me, you'll never see that out of a stocker. I know of 3 WORLDWIDE that can "safely" and consistently top 100 mph, and NONE are stock. Keep it at legal speeds and you shouldn't have problems. HOWEVER, that being said, keep an eye on the maintenance... The most common cause of a light cruiser tank slapping after too high a speed for the tires is the wheel bearings. They are sacrificial items. As the grease dries out, the bike will develop a slight front end wobble, maybe even some "pogo sticking". Change the bearings in the wheel and check the steering stem bearings, replacing if/when necessary. Watch the tires. IRC tires will dry rot and cup long before the tread is worn off. Keep the shield square to the front end. Keep the swingarm and axle nuts tight. they DO back off courtesy of the single cylinder thumping. Ditto the engine nuts. IF your bike gets seriously goofy on you, pull over. Odds are you've popped a tube. It happens, and is why higher end bikes have tubeless tires (much safer in a flat tire situation). File it in the back of your mind. No point dwelling on it. 95% of riders won't have a true tank slapper happen to them. I'm in the 5%. It wasn't fun. Interesting, yes, painful, definitely, costly, umm, yes. Cost me a restored 1963 FL cop bike. -WD |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Savage_Rob on 06/28/05 at 05:19:31 A fork brace (Superbrace (http://www.superbrace.com/) is the brand I bought) is great for helping to stabilize the front end of the Savage too. I can't recommend it enough. |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Ed_L. on 06/28/05 at 06:54:27 Ditto on the fork brace, after installing the Superbrace on my '02 the wobble that occured after hitting bumps when riding over 65mph went away. Can't recomend it enough for tighter handling. Just my .02 cents worth. Ride Safe, Ed L. |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by WD on 06/28/05 at 07:51:12 Come to think of it, another easy way to keep the bike behaving is to run a stiffer fork oil. SAE30HD works well in most standard 'glide front ends. "Fork oil" is for cartridge forks, the Savage has 1950s HD knock-offs. Sluggo brought up previously (and of course I completely spaced) making sure your spokes are tight. Loose spokes will definitely pull a wheel out of true. Yet another reason that heavier machines use cast wheels. Having the wheels balanced occasionally is a good idea as well. But, even changing the tire at 7.5 years on the bike didn't require any weights or spoke adjustment for my 98 model. I'd add a fork brace, but, my forks completely bottom out at every stop. >:( Either I ride it too agressively, or, I've completely destroyed the springs. Whichever, I'll try some SAE40 or 50 and see if it helps. Well, I'm off to work. To find a BUNCH of parts. Like: fork seals, exhaust gasket (head to pipe), brake pads, brake shoes, wheel bearings, swingarm bearings (or bushings, not sure which the Savage uses), head set bearings, grips, 12 inch over stock throttle/clutch cables, air filter, sparkplug, one piece riser cap... sheesh...might be cheaper to just get another Savage. :-/ Like I said, I'm rough on my bike... -WD And it's still the only one that takes the beating and comes back for more. 8) |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by vroom1776 on 06/28/05 at 08:23:46 WD wrote:
Hahaha. It is true! This buke loves abuse! |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Suzuki_Sam on 06/28/05 at 08:36:31 Thanks, guys. I'm going to look into the fork brace. As I understand it, as long as my bike's in proper shape and I'm not doing the Evil Knieval thing, this is something I don't need to obsess about. I appreciate your help! |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Hammy211 on 06/28/05 at 09:21:33 Savage_Rob wrote:
Which one did you get? I only saw braces for Suzuki Bandits. I get some wobble going around high speed corners. Do you think this would help with that? |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Reelthing on 06/28/05 at 09:50:49 I agree on the Superbrace - when I first put it on the '95 I was more impressed with it's looks than function - but after >4k miles with it the couple of times I've taken it off just fooling around - it goes back on fairly quick - I'll add one to the '02 shortly. |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Reelthing on 06/28/05 at 10:02:33 Hammy211 wrote:
It's there on the website - number 3335 I think - and don't waste you time on the fork shields - junk - I believe it does, as well as proper tire pressure - and as Sluggo pointed out - the spokes need to be tuned every now and again |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Savage_Rob on 06/28/05 at 10:55:34 Reelthing wrote:
Yes, it is listed and it is 3335. The item Reelthing is saying not to bother with is the stainless fork protector #6004 (below). I don't have those but hadn't really given them any thought. And I notice the difference in a lot of places, uneven surfaces are some of the most noticeable: rain grooves, gravel, minor holes and bumps, etc. http://www.superbrace.com/images/products/PIC6001_2.jpg |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by SavageDude on 06/28/05 at 11:31:52 Quote:
Just my 0.02 ;D I worked on airplane for 16 years now and notice that everytime the plane landed; the crewchief wipe down the Main Landing Gear strut(same as our front fork's principle)with a spray of oil and a rag. These MLG struts have been in service for the last 35 years and I haven't rebuild too many of them. So maybe we can do the same for our forks and extend their life with minimal effort ;) SavageDude |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Savage_Rob on 06/28/05 at 12:14:54 SavageDude wrote:
The simulation from the Superbrace site (http://www.superbrace.com/simulation.html) shows the bowing of the forks that the brace is intended to reduce/alleviate. I can personally attest to the fact that it works. I also wipe down the struts regularly. While I'm relatively sure it's a good maintenance practice, I'm equally sure it made no noticeable difference in the wobble inherent in this bike's front end. |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by freerider23 on 06/28/05 at 12:26:20 ok----what is tank slap??? is that going down, or is that something the winshield does, or what? |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by bentwheel on 06/28/05 at 13:01:51 Hammy211 wrote:
Others have said check your spokes and run correct tire pressure. Good advice. Next I would question your suspension. I am going to guess your fork seals are not leaking because that would be an obvious cause. Are your rear shocks set too low? Set your shocks to the firmest setting and go attack those high speed corners and see if it makes a difference. |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by mornhm on 06/28/05 at 13:43:23 Quote:
I've heard it used to describe the riders legs slapping the outsides of the tank, gasoline slapping the insides of the tank (not limited only to motorcycles) caused by violent side to side motion. Never heard the handlebars before (I think something would have to break or bend before this could really happen on most street bikes). Anyway it sounds like a real bad thing :'( |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Savage_Rob on 06/28/05 at 13:48:18 mornhm wrote:
Knees make a lot more sense. The handlebars seemed like some darned violent jerking around to me too; I just didn't visualize anything else in the vicinity of the tank. |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by bobo383 on 06/28/05 at 14:24:40 I clicked on this post thinking it was our new secret greeting... |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by bentwheel on 06/28/05 at 14:38:34 Yeah, good one Bobo. My longest recall of the term is the verb "tank slapper". It occured when racing motocross and getting the wheels off the ground (mostly in the whoops) and landing awkwardly causing you to rise from the seat and have your knees bang both sides of the tank in a furious motion, generally spitting you off your bike. It was quite funny when you saw it happen. |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by bobo383 on 06/28/05 at 16:19:24 I remember that now - the tank slapper! Man that was back in the 80s. Hurt like hell too, especially on those rigid Honda ATCs and Yamaha Tri-Motos we had. |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by babbalou on 06/28/05 at 18:58:40 I remember getting a nasty headshake on my old Suzuki GN 400. Got a new leftover '81 for $999. in '82. In really hard corners above 40 mph the handlebars would suddenly wobble badly until either I slowed down or the road straightened out. First time it happened I nearly crashed in a corner going about 60. My S40 doesn't seem to do that but I haven't really pushed it to the limits. (yet) :o |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by klx650sm2002 on 06/29/05 at 03:59:11 KLX tankslaps at 95mph and cos it has upsidedown forks I can't fit a fork brace, thinking about a steering damper, anyone have experience of steering dampers? Thanks in advance. Clive W :D |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by bobo383 on 06/29/05 at 19:20:12 I still click on this thinking it's our new secret greeting... One of the benefits of ADD. |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Greg_650 on 06/30/05 at 11:17:43 Might sound stupid, but what is meant by "tank slap"? |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by bentwheel on 06/30/05 at 13:48:09 bentwheel wrote:
Usually with your hands off of the handlebars. |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by sluggo on 06/30/05 at 18:36:21 Greg_650 wrote:
from what i understand it is a very advanced riding technique, that under NO circumstance should be attempted on a savage. the technique is best suited for sportbikes and the squids that pilot them. it is used mostly to reduce the gene pool. |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Greg_650 on 07/01/05 at 06:55:56 sluggo wrote:
I thought that it might involve a sudden stop or a wash board dirt road. |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by sluggo on 07/01/05 at 10:24:47 Greg_650 wrote:
very dennis miller. ;) |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Suzuki_Sam on 07/01/05 at 11:57:06 What started out in paranoia has turned into a good deal of laughter for me. Thanks! |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by sluggo on 07/01/05 at 16:48:53 Suzuki_Sam wrote:
thats what we're here for. most of my paranoia has turned to laughter, or it could just be the the voices have drowned it out. 8) |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by GITARZAN on 07/01/05 at 20:50:20 Whenever I read the title of this thread, I keep thinking of a Head Slap and Tankshake. I just wanted to say that and get it out of my system. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Greg_650 on 07/02/05 at 06:27:22 sluggo wrote:
I'm still having a hard time keeping my responses to this topic "clean", in spite of the fact that I don't understand what this topic really means.... |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by WD on 07/02/05 at 07:21:12 Headshake: side to side oscillation of the front suspension, which if unchecked, becomes tankslapping, followed by crashing. Or, as bad as the suspension on my bike is, headshake is what I do after my a$$ slaps the gas tank when I run over anything bigger than a cigarette butt. >:( -WD |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Greg_650 on 07/02/05 at 07:32:00 WD wrote:
So you are talking about "Wobble". Now, I got it. That is usually caused by some incorrectly installed windshield or altered front end....my XS 850, which I purchased new from a dealer with a full Windjammer fairing installed, had the tendency to wobble. Usually happened at high speed when encountering a strong cross wind. Or if the rear end was loaded with passenger and gear (making the front end light). The oscillation is very unsettling....but I can't remember whether I slapped the tank or simply sucked it up. |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by WD on 07/02/05 at 07:56:30 MY GS750T was bad about it as well. The fairing was mounted to the frame, not the forks, but still caused the bike to get squirrely above 55 mph. Took a baseball bat to the windshield, and, miraculously the headshake went away... Well, off to torture the "new" guy at work. New my butt...he's been building on and off road racing bikes for 30 something years. Rides a "works" Triumph Speed Triple, pre-USA release... Where's the genuflecting smiley saying " I'm not worthy"? ;) I think my boss's job is in jeopardy now... -WD |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Suzuki_Sam on 07/02/05 at 13:45:40 "I'm still having a hard time keeping my responses to this topic "clean", in spite of the fact that I don't understand what this topic really means...." My hat's off to you.....really :D |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Paladin on 07/02/05 at 14:22:14 Greg..... You cannot resist the dark side. Let it go..... |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Greg_650 on 07/02/05 at 14:46:10 Paladin wrote:
And maybe you've never experienced tank slap or wobble, either. When it's your time, you'll think you're on the dark side.... 'Bout like a front tire blow out in a car, only twice as much pucker.... :-X |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Suzuki_Sam on 07/02/05 at 15:15:27 :D Hey, Greg, are you the photographer of those photos? Fantastic! I like the bicycle ones (am watching Le Tour right now! ;D) and the blooms are exquisite and well, all of it. ::) |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Paladin on 07/02/05 at 17:20:33 Greg_650 wrote:
Only time I've had any sort of almost uncontrolable wobbling was when I lofted the front end in a turn in a rocky streambed on my DT175. Managed to keep upright to standstill at which point I sort of toppled over. Damage to bike: a grass stem stuck in the rear spring. Cuts/contusions: a 3/4" scratch barely breaking skin. And a minimally displaced fracture of the medial clavicle. As for front end blowouts on a car -- Wendy had one of those on the the interstate in the '76 LTD when we had gone to pick up my brother after he fell off a horse. I was in bro's car, ahead, so when the front end started wobbling she sped up and flashed her lights to get my attention before slowing and pulling off to the side. |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by diesel on 07/02/05 at 21:20:04 Back in late 50's, while pushing my R 50 to its top, 'bout 95, ridding buddy on a mid 50's Areil square four, passed me. when he pulled back in front of me and backed of throttle, that Areil started to wobble. the slower it went, the worse the wobble got, at 'bout 40,the Areil was making a shower of sparks from both crash bars till it locked the handle bars and first flipped him up the air then the Areil. when he came back down the bike looked like it landed on top of him, thoe it didn't. he WAS wearing leathers and a helmet, wore a big hole in the helmet. had a broken collar bone, some road rash, and a concushion.(sp)? turns out, Ariel had broken right fork spring. in the days of the K model HD, this was known as "speed wobble". they were famous for it. If you rode a K. you knew what a speed wobble was. |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by WD on 07/02/05 at 21:30:08 I had a K-model for about 2 weeks. Took it to the vintage races and the front wheel fell off. At speed. I took the remnants home and made a mailbox stand out of it. I think the K was a tongue in cheek because a "KILL YOU" model wouldn't have sold... -WD My 1970 XL (Sportster) was just as bad. I sold it for 1 cent per pound... I got the better of the deal. As I recall, it is on the bottom of the Snake River just south of Lewiston Idaho, courtesy of the steering stem shearing at speed... |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Suzuki_Sam on 07/02/05 at 21:40:37 WD wrote:
;D You sure showed it who's boss! |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Greg_650 on 07/03/05 at 06:23:28 Suzuki_Sam wrote:
Yes. An amateur wannabee photographer, I am. Thank you for visiting and the compliment. I had a lot of fun at the bicycle ride. |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Greg_650 on 07/03/05 at 06:29:33 Paladin wrote:
With that answer, you are definitely a virgin with the experience of front end wobble or head shake. If it happens to you, you'll know. The crash on the Yamaha, was merely a rider induced FU. What we are discussing cannot be initiated or controlled (without slowing down). |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Greg_650 on 07/03/05 at 06:33:06 WD wrote:
I admit it. I think that you have wrecked more bikes than most of us have ridden. Keep up the good work ;D |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by WD on 07/03/05 at 13:15:51 Can't "fix" 'em if I don't break 'em first. There's a reason I've gone through 75 bikes, in less than 20 years. Buy it, ride it, break it, fix it, sell it. I have a short attention span. Once I hit a couple thousand miles on the bike, it isn't fun anymore. Only reason I still have the Savage is that it takes the abuse and readily comes back for more. I hit a tree at 20 mph on it, and after loosening the tubes and axle clampsand bouncing the front end a couple times, it was fixed... >:( Can't squeak out springer money until the tubes on this are completely shot. -WD |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by Greg_650 on 07/04/05 at 10:44:16 Have you ever ridden a Ural? |
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Title: Re: Tank Slap and Headshake Post by WD on 07/04/05 at 11:16:11 Nope. I think they're ugly. I've ridden antique Beemers, and since the Ural is a knock off of one of those, forget it. I like Triumph (old), BSA, Norton, Ariel, Vincent, Maico, Bultaco, Hodaka. I love REAL HDs (pre-1965 BT), REAL Indians (pre-1953), REAL Henderson or Excelsior (pre-1933), Crocker. I tolerate Honda CB fours (aircooled), Suzuki GS fours (aircooled), Yamaha XS400/650 Specials, misc ONROAD UJM thumpers (CL, SL, LS, etc). If it's not categorized above, I want nothing to do with it. I've had or ridden BMW, universal Japanese dirtbikes, CZ/Jawa/Puch, liquid cooled bikes, late model HDs, etc. I don't like them. In fact, to my way of thinking, the LS would be a better bike if the CDI was tossed in favor of points... :-/ I know, I'm strange. So be it. -WD |
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