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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1129258293 Message started by Jim_R on 10/13/05 at 19:51:33 |
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Title: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Jim_R on 10/13/05 at 19:51:33 I got this kewl 60mm air filter/sock from ebay. It was a real tight fit but it sure works alot better than my other pod/car tuner filter. I believe its because of what Greg650 said. The air has short distance to travel and its a straighter shot. I noticed a big difference and it was the best 14.99 i spent (with shippin) off ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=4579031244&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT ebay ad http://www.geocities.com/jimruggiero/newfilter.jpg here is a pic on my bike. |
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Title: Pod Style Air Filter Post by Savage_Rob on 10/14/05 at 06:01:09 Yeah, they sell those for $9 (before S/H) at Cycle-Re-Cycle (http://www.crc2onlinecatalog.com/pod_filters.htm). I'm not sure the largest they have will fit though. It's a 54mm and I think the carb needs a 57mm or 58mm to fit properly. This site has some pretty decent prices on several things... like springer seats. |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) Post by Greg_650 on 10/14/05 at 09:08:04 Looks like a good fit, and it appears to be shorter than my K&N, too. |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) Post by Savage_Rob on 10/14/05 at 12:52:54 Speaking of the length of the K&N filter, I found this interesting idea (http://www.oldbritts.com/42_100004.html) on changing that. |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) Post by Greg_650 on 10/14/05 at 13:14:45 Savage_Rob wrote:
And that is the correct filter for the Savage too. I had also thought about fitting a tubing fitting in the chrome end of the filter for the crankcase breather hose....but I changed my mind in favor of using a separate filter. As for shortening it...is it a good idea? When you cut it, the diameter will be bigger than the original end in the chrome cap. Therefore you have to squeeze the pleats in the filter together to refit them in the cap. Right? And if you do that, will it make the filter material denser and restrict airflow more than it was? Just a thought.... |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) Post by Curz on 10/14/05 at 14:19:23 You've already reduced its flow by cutting away surface area, whats a little more by compacting? ??? |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) Post by Savage_Rob on 10/14/05 at 14:27:33 I've kinda wondered about that anyway. It seems like the pod has a lot less surface area than the drop-in K&N I have now. The only caveat there is the bottleneck at the snorkel under the seat. That's really my primary restriction now and the shortened K&N pod may still be more than that _ I don't know. |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) Post by SavageDude on 10/14/05 at 19:40:38 Savage_Rob wrote:
Is there any ill effect on the engine if the side plastic cover for the air filter is removed completely. I still have have stock filter and stock muffler with 1/2 white spacer along with 155 main jet? I felt that the engine accelerates much better than with that plastic cover on the air filter housing. Inputs please ??? ??? |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) Post by Jim_R on 10/15/05 at 01:05:01 I have heard it runs alot better with it cracked at the very least. The only ill effect I could see is that if more air is rushing thru ur filter might get dirtier quicker. With a 155 main jet I think that you might want to get a k&n replacement filter at the very least. But that is only my opinion. I went with a sock because its faster and I like the look. I miss my side covers a tad but it was worth it to me. |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) Post by Greg_650 on 10/15/05 at 07:55:32 Can I ask a dumb question? It may be that I've been without my airbox for a while, but I gotta ask anyway.... If you open the door on the airbox where you access the filter, how does that allow air to go through the filter anyway? Doesn't opening the door allow air to bypass the filter? Isn't that defeating the purpose of the filter? It seems to me, that if you want more flow, it would simpler to just remove #10. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/air_cleaner01ewb.jpg |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) Post by Jim_R on 10/15/05 at 08:01:06 Although I havent cracked the filter box, i guess when the bike is moving, the air is channeled into the box since the crack is facing the direction in which the air is flowing. I honestly havent tried it and loves the pod idea but the sock I think is the best option I have tried yet. |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) Post by Greg_650 on 10/15/05 at 08:01:53 Jim_R wrote:
Anyone considered the fact that a K&N filter is reusable/cleanable? If you try to clean a stock filter it comes apart....at least mine did. |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) Post by slavy on 10/15/05 at 08:20:16 Removing the #10 is "step 1". If You want more air , in addition to step 1 You can drill as many holes in the air filter door , as You wish. Step 3 is to remove the door completely. There should be no air leak around the filter. For added security put waterproof grease around the filter. |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) Post by Greg_650 on 10/15/05 at 08:45:04 Savage_Rob wrote:
Geez this is gonna take a minute.....this discussion is all about surface area, and I'm pretty certain that my pod filter has more than a stock filter. First, let me insert this link for my K&N filter. This gives all the relative dimensions, too. RC-1250 (http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=RC-1250) It states that my pod filter has a top diameter of 2", a base diameter of 3.5" and a length of 4".... I think that it might be time for a little math, but unfortunately, I'm a little rusty. It involves some area calculations, and I can't remember exactly how to figure the surface area of a cone....a little research would help, but I'm also a little lazy....:) Anyway, if someone has the time, could they take their old stock filter and roll it into a tube and tell us the diameter of that tube? Or simply multiply the length and width and give us the surface area of the filter element alone (don't count the edges)? I'm betting that the K&N pod has more surface area than a flat stock filter.... |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) Post by Greg_650 on 10/15/05 at 08:49:06 slavy wrote:
I'm gonna photograph my airbox today for the Marketplace section and I'll look at the door again. Are you saying that with the door open, the carb side of the filter is still sealed? The diagram at the top kinda shows the door to be needed for that.... |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) Post by Jim_R on 10/15/05 at 10:03:18 OK I found out how to do this finally. All u need to do is find the radius of 2 and 3.5 which is 1 and 1.75 and go here http://www.webcalc.net/calc/0041.php I was soooooooooooo "cone"fused. Thank god for calculators and google. Boy I am "frustum"ated! the answer is Surface Area of a Conical Frustum Top Radius: 1 Bottom Radius: 1.75 Height: 4 Surface Area: 35.159728445746 ok a regular filter is 5.125 by 5.125 approx which is 26.265625. Wow that k& n is like almost 10 inches bigger. It also flows faster and without the airbox restricting the regular airflow it gets air more directly. i measured mine and it was 2.5 bottom 2in top and 2 in height. Top Radius: 1 Bottom Radius: 1.25 Height: 2 Surface Area: 14.247185463789 but mine has no snorkel, no air box, and blah blah. |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) Post by Greg_650 on 10/15/05 at 10:41:20 Jim_R wrote:
So the stock filter is 5 1/8" X 5 1/8". Cool. I'm having a hard time "cone centrating" on this, but.... If we take the stock filter at 5.125" long and roll that into a tube....and then use the reverse formaula for the "cir-cone-ference" of a circle, which is Circumference divided by Pi = Diameter.... or 5.125" / 3.14 = 1.632" That means that a stock filter would create a "straight" pod filter that would be 5.125" long by 1.632" diameter :) Or to look at this another way, the stock filter would need to be 6.86" X 5.125" to be the same area as the RC -1250. |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Greg_650 on 10/15/05 at 10:48:47 Also, maybe we should start a new topic in the Technical Corner for formulas and measures....never know when we might need to convert liters to gallons or millimeters to inches....such as: ...Pi x D = C ...Pi x R2 = Area ...1 gallon = 3.78 liters ...1 MM = .03937" ...25.4 MM = 1" After all, we know "frustumating" numbers can be at times. :P |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Jim_R on 10/15/05 at 10:58:26 thats a pretty kewl idea greg. I think u should be the honorary moderator :) "cone"fucius say listen to Greg650 TODAY! |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Greg_650 on 10/15/05 at 11:28:13 AND did I forget to mention....:) The K&N pod filter is a "Pleated Frustum". We have been talking about a frustum shaped cone filter with a flat surface. Pod filters are pleated which give a bigger surface for dirt to get trapped. http://www.kandn.com/images/l/RC-1250.jpg |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Mr 650 on 10/15/05 at 13:23:31 Gman, you fellas get a gold star for doing your homework today. ;D Now to add my "wrinkle" to this... The area of the cone is not important, if you know the area of the media before you wind it into a cone. You guys left out an important component in that us lazier "replacement K&N filter guys" may find reassuring. First, the best part about the pod it that it straightens the airway out vs. the convoluted air box. If nothing else, it helps the airway by straitening it. The air box might run better down low but I doubt it. Now speaking of wrinkles, you guys laid a tape across the filter media or was that a factory surface number? That would be fine if both filters have the same corrugation (or pleats). The depth and number of pleats is something that should be considered if you want the true area. I think the replacement might have deeper folds. Now the number and size of the pleats should also figure into this. I think the replacement filters pleating is 2 or perhaps 3 times longer than the pod! Maybe not, that is how I rationalized it. I am back in Louisville so I can’t check this, but I would sure like to know more. I did get back home and rode to a reunion of old "strokes" last weeK: http://eastgatepics.blogspot.com/ |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Greg_650 on 10/15/05 at 14:24:33 Mr 650 wrote:
Where you been, Mr. 650? Anyway, I was trying to point out that we weren't talking about a simple flat surface, and so I mentioned the pleats above....kinda after the fact in the whole discussion, but it needed to be added since the dimensions that we used were based on the radial/linear dimensions that were provided by the K&N link that is posted even further up... But you are right, and your point is a valid addition to the discussion. It all started over an idea that one filter had less surface area than the other, and therefore restricted flow more than the other. Blah, blah, blah.... Anyway, I also made a slight error, in that I hadn't seen a stock filter in a while...but my thinking is corrected now that I went out to the garage and had a look. Indeed, the stock filter also has some ripples or pleats as well. Just not as many as the K&N. In truth, the guy (can't remember off the top) with the "stealth pod" filter hidden in the gutted airbox probably has a filter with a greater surface area than both the stock and my K&N put together. However his has a bend in it and the stock snorkel too. How 'bout that? Sound reasonable? Probably the best flowing intake in this forum isn't even on a Savage, and we know who that is...it is Clive and his Kaw with the velocity stack :) |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Greg_650 on 10/15/05 at 14:54:00 Whew.... Now getting back to Slavvy.... I now see that there is foam around the air filter inside the airbox. So I guess that if people want to dill out or remove the door, that would work to open it up too. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/Airbox01web1000.jpg |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Mr 650 on 10/15/05 at 14:54:35 Yeah The stack is best, but then they don't have as many dust storms over there ya know. ;D I should have spec'ed the K&N replacement filter vs pod. I tossed the OEM filter, and stuck in the K&N. I would like to know the total area, pleats & all, of the pod and the replacement K&Ns, like if the pleats were flattened out. Does the wife's 650 use the K&N replacement? Man I am Louisville again and the weather is perfect for riding back home. (where the bike is) Been parked too much this summer. >:( |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Greg_650 on 10/15/05 at 15:25:56 Mr 650 wrote:
Nope. The wife only lets me work on her bike, when she wants me too. Which means that I don't ask, either :P |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Jim_R on 10/15/05 at 15:45:37 Hey I mentioned the air was a straight shot in the 1st message :) The air has short distance to travel and its a straighter shot. Also I didnt take in the fact that both pod and sock have caps on them which would reduce the K&N by 2*3.14 and mine by 2*3.14 surface area. As far as the pleats are concerned the stock filters are all bunched up and not really open, if not blocking air flow really. If you really wanted to know you could buy one, take it apart, and measure it. I think both pod,sock, and drop in filter have pleats that are spaced further apart and work more effectively. As far as I am concerned anything is better than a stock filter except maybe no filter at all :) |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Mr 650 on 10/15/05 at 16:47:06 I was concernered about the total surface area calulations, addressing the pleats. Pull out the trig book figure the angle of the pleats as spread over the diameter and throw in some calculus to figure the slope of the surface then subtract the cone left buy the cap...naw I'm going to the "Backout" & get a steak & a beer. Maybe you can talk Greg into destructive analysis of a flat K&N. ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Greg_650 on 10/15/05 at 18:05:39 Ya know what's really funny in all this? The volume of air through any part of the engine will only be equal to the smallest area...considering atmospheric pressures or whatever. What I mean is that we can have a 10 foot square filter surface and it won't make any difference if there is a restriction of a smaller size somewhere else....Unless someone is putting a blower on there and has modified the exhaust pretty heavily. Let me see....a 40 MM carb. Hmmm...that equals a diameter of 1.575 inches or a radius of .787 inches at the carb intake. Now if we do the math...and use Pi x R2 to get the carb intake area....3.14 x .7872 = 1.946 square inches for the carb opening area.....Hmmmm We can have any filter we want....It doesn't matter 'cause the engine sucks what it needs and none of this conversation changes a thing :) All the larger surface area does is to ensure that the filter doesn't slow the air down. Any tests on filter drag? Aside from that, the larger the filter, the more area to collect dirt, and I doubt that anything changes until the filter gets dirty. Personally, this conversation has been a fun mental exercise, but we are riding Savages after all. It don't matter :P |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Curz on 10/15/05 at 19:57:47 We're looking at this wrong (I think!) The square area of the filter and the carb opening doesn't matter in the fact that they will only alter the pressure of the airflow through the opening. What realy matters is the flow rate or CFM. Lets see (correct me if I'm wrong). The cylinder is approximately 40 cubic inches and at max 6500 rpm the engine will fill that cylinder once every 2nd revolution(as I believe for a 4 stroke) or 3250 times per minute. Therefor at full throttle the system needs to flow approximately 130000 cubic inches per minute. Convert that to cubic feet and we get a little over 75 CFM. As long as the filter can unrestictively handle that we are ok. If it can't the top end will tend to lower the fuel air mixture volumetric pressure reducing horsepower. Then again I'm no dynamics engineer. |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Greg_650 on 10/16/05 at 06:43:29 Ain't all this fun? Here we are, a bunch of arm chair engineers trying to figure what setup is the best....:) What Curz said, is what I meant...I suppose that we'd have to bench test the carb with different filter setups to find how they affect air flow through the carb...maybe even dirty them up with equal amounts of dust to figure when any of them begin to restrict the flow, too. However, I'm guessing that Suzuki and K&N have done both of these things and figured an optimum configuration for both....and I imagine that K&N has designed the "universal" RC-1250 for airflow that is greater than the Savage needs anyway. I bet the K&N would work on a VTX 1800 even. Personally, I like the K&N filter because it is so simple, uncluttered and easy to clean. On the other hand, those that choose otherwise merely have different reasons, like not wanting to make extensive modifications to the stock parts. |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Curz on 10/16/05 at 09:46:26 Sorry Greg...Having reread your post it would appear you were thinking CFM. My thoughts now turn to ways of pressurizing the air input to raise the volumetric pressure of the air the cylinder gulps. And ,NO I can't afford a custom built 10psi turbo system. Besides I don't know if the intake would take that kind of pressure? But that discussion is a little off the topic of this thread. No more engineer talk from me, my brain is starting to hurt from all the math. |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Greg_650 on 10/16/05 at 10:09:52 Curz wrote:
I was thinking CFM, but you actually said it. I mentioned "atmospheric" because the whole thing works off that principle anyway. High pressure vs low pressure. What is it, "suck, squeeze, bang, and blow", right? You're right though....a little math is hard on a biker's head 8) |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Savage_Rob on 10/16/05 at 10:52:45 Heh, really didn't mean to get to all this but it's good. I've been a fan of K&N filters for a long time and I like the drop-in replacement I now use on my Savage. But if I can achieve the same (or better) performance by switching to the K&N pod, I could reclaim some storage/relocation space. If not, I'll probably just remove the snorkel as a subjective experiment in performance. That's where I was going with my questions. |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Greg_650 on 10/16/05 at 11:17:54 Savage_Rob wrote:
Don't blame yourself. We were just thumpin' around some idle thoughts anyway..... ::) |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Ed_L. on 10/16/05 at 13:47:18 Just had a thought on all this, since an air filter causes some type of restriction in the air flow wouldn't it be possible to measure the vacumn between the air filter and the intake of the carb at different RPMs. Less vacumn means lower restriction, increased vacumn is more restriction from the filter. With the stock air box all you would need to do would be hook up a vacumn gauge at the oil drain tube that comes out of the bottom of the bike. If the gauge is accurate enough the differences between the stock air filter and K+N drop in filter will be evident, you could even check on just how much the airbox door changes the reading. Don't think I have a gauge that is accurate enough, anybody out there with a good set of gauges interested? ;D |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Greg_650 on 10/17/05 at 05:34:20 Ed_L. wrote:
I wonder if there is any kind of a reference connection on the carb that would allow checking the pressure on the carb directly. That way all 3 filters could be checked in the same way. I also imagine, that to check the filter with a stock airbox, that it would be necessary to plug the crankcase breather because of the pressure fluctuations coming from the crankcase. Those would cause pulses on the gage. |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Savage_Rob on 10/17/05 at 05:58:35 Speaking of which, what did you use for your crankcase breather, Greg? A smaller K&N? |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Savage_Rob on 10/25/05 at 18:01:40 Well, I removed the snorkel over the weekend and I am completely amazed at the difference. My top end has a lot more power now. I'm guessin' she just couldn't get enough air at high revs. I'm still using my K&N drop-in air filter. Just viewing the snorkel itself (while installed), it doesn't look very restrictive; and I don't think it really is in and of itself. What I noticed is that its placement causes the body of the snorkel to block a sizeable portion of the installed air filter. With the snorkel removed and a K&N (drop-in replacement for the stock filter) I have never felt this bike run like she does now. At 75 MPH on the freeway today she felt like 65 did last week. Edit: Removed a typo that was buggin' me. |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by DavidV on 10/25/05 at 23:37:47 You removed the snorkel? But still have the stock airbox? Do you mean that you removed the side door? I'm confused (and looking for a few extra HP, too). Thanks, DavidV |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Savage_Rob on 10/26/05 at 06:01:12 DavidV wrote:
Okay, go back and read the thread from the beginning and look at Greg's post with the exploded view of the airbox. Item #10 is the snorkel, which is what I removed. It would only help if that's the airflow bottleneck and your fuel flow supports the increased airflow. |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by DavidV on 10/26/05 at 11:00:33 Okay, got it. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Savage_Rob on 10/26/05 at 11:27:44 The worst case would be that it made it too lean for you and you'd have to put it back or rejet. It's easy to take it out and put it back. |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Greg_650 on 10/28/05 at 08:34:16 Savage_Rob wrote:
I can't help too much with the part number. I threw away the package. It is just listed with K&N as a breather filter, and I ordered it to fit the stock breather hose...1/2"? Have to order one with the mounting stud, too. I bent a piece of stainless and mounted it in one of the original tapped holes for the horn...which I moved up to the triple tree. In this position there is still a downhill slope for oil mist to drain back to the engine. Kinda neat to bend down and listen to the air going in and out at idle ;D http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/Fuses01web.jpg |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Savage_Rob on 10/28/05 at 12:04:42 Greg_650 wrote:
No problem. That's kinda what I was thinkin' of doin'. However, now that I've yanked the snorkel and she breathes so much easier, I'm having second thoughts about even bothering with it. It's good info to have for the future though. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: New Air Filter(sock) surface area solution Post by Greg_650 on 10/28/05 at 13:09:40 Savage_Rob wrote:
I've heard where people wonder about sucking rain water in the carb with a K&N pod filter. At least the filter separates the water from the air. |
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