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Message started by red2k1 on 12/28/05 at 15:43:47

Title: Where is the spark?
Post by red2k1 on 12/28/05 at 15:43:47

Bike is a 2002 Savage with about 12,000 miles.

Problem: One day the bike runs fine; next day the bike will not start. There is no spark at the spark plug. Fuel okay.

What I know and what I have done: The two fuses in the fuse holder are fine. I have visually checked the wiring harness and all looks okay. I have a number of electrical parts from an '03 Savage and have replaced the coil assembly, the ignitor assembly, and the rectifier assembly. Still no spark to the spark plug. I have not replaced the Control Unit because I do not have one. Could that be it? Any recomendations would be appreciated.

Title: Re: Where is the spark?
Post by Reelthing on 12/28/05 at 16:08:03

Do you have 12v at the coil when it does this?

Title: Re: Where is the spark?
Post by Ed_L. on 12/28/05 at 16:15:57

Try bypassing the kickstand safety switch, they have a history of going bad and causing an intermittent spark problem. Let us know how you make out, luck.

Title: Re: Where is the spark?
Post by Reelthing on 12/28/05 at 16:29:10

that's what I'm think as well - or maybe the nutrl switch - but if you have 12v at the coil and no spark trigger seems we're into the other side of the coil - gues I try to spilt the ign system into two parts when chase'n stuff like this - the power side and the "smart" side.

Title: Re: Where is the spark?
Post by red2k1 on 12/28/05 at 16:29:51

Quote:

Do you have 12v at the coil when it does this?

No voltage at the coil.

Title: Re: Where is the spark?
Post by Reelthing on 12/28/05 at 16:32:02

none on the bottom wire - I think it's white and orange - books at home I'm not

it on the side stand ?

Title: Re: Where is the spark?
Post by Reelthing on 12/28/05 at 16:39:07

I'd hookup the volt meter to that o/w wire with aligator clip and the other to a good ground - and start trying things - in gear, out of gear, bang around on the kickstand, cycle the red power switch a good bit - and of course the connectors under the seat - sure not going to run till you got 12v there - might be fun to run a jumper from there to the battery for grins

Title: Re: Where is the spark?
Post by AussieSavage on 12/28/05 at 19:54:46

Hi red2k1,

I had a problem like this a week ago, sometimes the plug would spark and other times not. It ended up being the side stand relay as the main culprit.
There also was another problem, like you I checked the wiring harness, but missed something.
Just make sure the two coil wires connecting to the coil are not bare and touching the frame.

Another thing I cleaned up was the earth wire on the negative side of the battery to the right side casing on the engine. Also check the kill switch and check the coil pick up resistance.
Hope you get the problem fixed.
Cheers Gary

Title: Re: Where is the spark?
Post by red2k1 on 12/30/05 at 04:29:27

Thanks for all the suggestions, but still have not found the problem; plan to work on it more today.

Title: Re: Where is the spark?
Post by slavy on 12/30/05 at 06:25:54

If the bike is cranking, but there is no power at the O/W wire at the coil , You should have a brocken or disconnected O/W wire somewhere. The same wire is feeding Your starting system. If the starting system is working, this eliminates the ign. switch and the kill switch. Don't think about the decompr. contr. unit- it is for the starting cirquit only / not for the spark/.

Title: Re: Where is the spark?
Post by Greg_650 on 12/30/05 at 06:39:51

Runs one day, and won't the next? Did you DO anything to the bike? Any work at all even if it seems unrelated?

It won't start in nuetral with the sidestand down and the clutch lever pulled in?

Do you have a nuetral light showing? Check the blue (covered) wire behind the engine on the right side near the clutch actuator lever.

Check that the clutch switch and the side stand switch work.

How about the battery? Starter turns over just fine, too?

Title: Re: Where is the spark?
Post by red2k1 on 12/30/05 at 11:44:44

Runs one day, and won't the next? Did you DO anything to the bike? Any work at all even if it seems unrelated?

DID NOT DO A THING. SIMPLY RAN THE BIKE UNDER THE CARPORT ON TUESDAY AFTERNOON AND ON WEDNESDAY MORNING IT WOULD NOT START. IT CRANKED, BUT WOULD NOT FIRE.

It won't start in nuetral with the sidestand down and the clutch lever pulled in?

NO.

Do you have a nuetral light showing? Check the blue (covered) wire behind the engine on the right side near the clutch actuator lever.

HAVE A NEUTRAL LIGHT.

Check that the clutch switch and the side stand switch work.

THEY CHECK OUT FINE.

How about the battery? Starter turns over just fine, too?

BATTERY IS CHARGED AND ENGINE CRANKS BUT WILL NOT FIRE.

I FIND THIS A PUZZLEMENT. I THINK I MAY NEED ANOTHER GREMLIN BELL.

Title: Re: Where is the spark?
Post by Greg_650 on 12/30/05 at 12:04:00

Okay then....Different combination....have you tried it with the sidestand up, the clutch pulled in and the bike in gear?

Next step. Do you have gas? Gas in the bowl?

Title: Re: Where is the spark?
Post by slavy on 12/30/05 at 13:31:22

The first thing- make sure the battery is FULLY charged ! If You are not 100% sure- charge it for 1 hr. Many of us have found out that even if the bike seems to be cranking good, there could be a problem with the battery and there is not enough power to the CDI.
Second - If the bike is cranking and there is no power to the ign coil-O/W wire- this is a problem with this wire. The power goes from the battery thru the main fuse, to the ign. switch after that is the kill switch and after that it splits to the starting cirquit and to the ign. coil. If the starting system is working , the only other reason is that there is a problem after the split/ again this is valid only with a fully charged battery!/

Title: Re: Where is the spark?
Post by torque on 12/30/05 at 14:59:38

slavy wrote:

i agree. if i leave the lights on for a little while,it will run the battery down just enough so it wont fire,it will turn over, just not fire.

did u try to push start it ?

Title: Re: Where is the spark?
Post by Greg_650 on 12/30/05 at 17:13:41

slavy wrote:

Oh, come on. The bike runs fine one day and not so the next day ??? The current draw for the ignition unit is so low, that we're talking about a seriously drained battery for that to happen. This is a "02 model too, and not a bike that has old corroded electrical connections.

(Even my '00 was starting last spring, and I didn't know that I had 2 virtually dry cells at the time....and when it finally failed to start and I pulled the battery, I simply filled the dry cells with bottled water. After a couple minutes it started riight up with out even a charger needed.)

I'm thinking that something else is going on here.

Title: Re: Where is the spark?
Post by torque on 12/30/05 at 18:59:17

greg ,u said that your battery charged its self,his might charge a little more on the days that it starts :-/.

first i would try to push start it ,its worth a shot,if it dose'nt fire,its not the battery,if your headlights are bright u have enough power to push start it.

Title: Re: Where is the spark?
Post by Reelthing on 12/31/05 at 05:41:23

If we back up a little, there needs to be 12v at the coil with the key on and the run switch on or nothing is going to happen.

Assume there is power there - the battery issue is interesting - I have an '02 right now with a marginal battery - after it sets a couple days it will crank but not start - I can put the 1amp trickle charge on there for even 15 minutes and it will fire right up (with the charger still attached) - the battery had a near or perhaps fully - dry cell.

When I get back to the house i'll measure the voltage - it may very well be droping under 12v - if so one of the "smart" componets might not trigger.

Title: Re: Where is the spark? (Found the spark.)
Post by red2k1 on 12/31/05 at 12:34:05

Well, found the problem. It was a bad spark plug, the very last thing I took seriously. I run NGK Iridium and when I first pulled the plug(only about 1,200 miles on it) it visually appeared fine - electrodes okay and no cracked insulator. However, when I pulled it a second time and replaced it with the old Iridium, the bike fired right up and runs perfectly, except for a flat rear tire.

Thanks for all the advice; I have become quite farmiliar with the electrics on this bike.

Title: Re: Where is the spark? (Found the spark.)
Post by Greg_650 on 12/31/05 at 13:57:59

red2k1 wrote:

Are you sure that you didn't inadvertantly fix another problem in the plug change?

Just curious, because I've been running the same plug for 3 years without a problem.

Title: Re: Where is the spark?
Post by red2k1 on 12/31/05 at 14:21:20

Quote:

Are you sure that you didn't inadvertantly fix another problem in the plug change?

I am sure. Before changing the plug I tried starting the bike twice. It would crank, but would not fire. Simply changed the plug, hit the start button and it fired right up.

Title: Re: Where is the spark?
Post by Savage_Rob on 12/31/05 at 14:29:11

I remember being told by my father about cracked electrodes in the plugs causing that but I've never actually encountered it.

Title: Re: Where is the spark?
Post by Greg_650 on 12/31/05 at 14:30:30

Torque and Reelthing,

I discounted the battery for 2 reasons....

1. He didn't mention an issue that sounded related, like slow cranking, dim lights, weak horn, or blown fuses.

2. Between our 2 bikes, an '00 and '01 we've had only 1 battery problem since new. It was a surprise, but about 3 years ago my spouse's '01 suddenly would not restart during a ride when we stopped at an ATM for cash.

Her bike had been just fine, but would not restart, and I couldn't rig anything to make it run. No lights, horn, and both fuses okay. Finally after riding home, pulling my battery and returning with our truck, it started fine. Her bike drove home fine.

When I checked with a meter I had close to 12 volts, however a charger wouldn't build it up enough, and with a battery tester at the bike shop we found that the amperage was too low. Bottom line: a freak issue of a broken buss in the cells. So in this case, we had a battery about 2 years old that just plain broke.

And in the mean time, my spouse STILL has my old '00 battery running in hers after 5 years, cause it was just easier to just put the new one in mine which was all apart anyway.

As for the low water and dry cells....that was just a bad case of lazy. After moving out west, and then spending the winter messing with my fender, I just never pulled the battery to inspect. I used a trickle charger and that was it. We even drove to Mt. St. Helens to meet Sluggo, and everything seemed fine. However, on another day it got my attention by slow cranking and it wouldn't start. Then I had to pull it. Low and behold, 2 cells were so dry (that little window is a joke) that I had to tilt it to see any liquid. It had gotten below the plates.

I thought, crap. I went in the house, got a fresh bottled water and filled it up. Then it sat while I pulled the spouse's and did the same....and hers needed some too. When I went back to mine, it started. What can I say?

So, what does all this mean to me? That the stock batteries aren't that wimpy. Until last year I had been diligent about the battery levels, and it bit me on the butt. However, what we do have is 1 battery that is almost 6 years old, and one that is 3. So, I'm thinking that if they are cared for, and maintained, they won't fail as often as we might think.

Whew...sorry this was so long :P

Title: Re: Where is the spark?
Post by Greg_650 on 12/31/05 at 14:37:52

Savage_Rob wrote:

I remember being told by my father about cracked electrodes in the plugs causing that but I've never actually encountered it.

Yeah that high voltage can act strange and do wierd things. It always wants the path of least resistence, and it'll jump a crack to the head (especially if the plug or wire is dirty), rather than jump the plug gap itself.

I don't really understand this though, since his plugs are so new.