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Message started by 911radioman on 02/13/06 at 22:52:40

Title: Verify this jet for me?
Post by 911radioman on 02/13/06 at 22:52:40

I'm in the process of doing a fairly good size order through Dennis Kirk, and I found this jet. It says its a Mikuni 152.5. I want to make sure this is the proper main jet for the Savage.

http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/product_catalog/Product.jsp?skuId=17251525&store=&catId=111&productId=p1725100&leafCatId=11101

Says it comes in a two-pack for $5.99.

Now, to make sure I'm on the right track here. Let me run down what I've done/doing so I make sure this is the right size jet I need.

1. White spacer mod - filed to 1/2 size DONE

2. Pilot cap drilled and idle mixture screw richened DONE

3. HD Sportster muffler ON ORDER

With these givens, am I on target going for the 152.5 main jet, and is the link I gave above the RIGHT jet?

Thanks!
Tom

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by Reelthing on 02/14/06 at 04:24:45

That's the one - large round mikuni type 100/604

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by necropsy on 02/14/06 at 04:29:05

woah!
shouldn't he be getting either a K&N or go a size smaller?

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by Jim_R on 02/14/06 at 04:50:23

yeah I agree, he need to change his air filter to a K&N replacement or a pod filter! Check the marketplace for the $15 +shipping pods. I got one and its awesome

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by Reelthing on 02/14/06 at 05:34:54

the 152.5 works mighty fine with a clean stock airfilter and free'r flow pipe - at sea level -

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by 911radioman on 02/14/06 at 05:41:45

Well I ain't in the mountains or anything. :D Whatever the elevation of Louisville, Kentucky is, is where I'm at. Based on everything I've read, the 152.5 is supposed to be the way to go unless I've missed something. I'm not really intending to get into the air box mods unless I absolutely have to.

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by 911radioman on 02/14/06 at 05:47:00

Looks like we're about 500 ft above sea level here.

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by Reelthing on 02/14/06 at 05:50:31

it may run a tad rich but not much and to me that's a good thing - as the summer comes on you might want to play with a 150 - check your plug if's black or close to it.

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by Savage_Rob on 02/14/06 at 06:16:16

Upgrading the air filter is still a good idea, in my opinion. If you choose to use the K&N drop-in replacement for the stock filter, I'd also recommend a snorkelectomy.

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by Reelthing on 02/14/06 at 06:55:36

No doubt the lower restriction K&N does flow more air just understand while you let more air through the filter you also let more particles through. K&N use to claim they were with in 1% of stock paper filters - this may or may not be important depending on where you operate the engine. I use K&N filters some but not on the engines that run in a high sand environment and where I expect long life from them, some of the 2-strokes for instance are going to need new pistons and rings after a couple hundred hours no matter what you do and longlife is just not expected. An interesting read on the subject here is always fun and starts the d@mnst amount of disagreements just like the syn oil vs. dino oil. Pretty good site:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm

While people will quote their personal experence time and again on how the lower restriction air filter did not hurt their engine - my self included - I have a '99 F250 with 180k miles on it that has had a K&N filter on it since new and still runs quit well - on the other hand my 300zx would have most likely died if it had K&N's as it is a bottom breather and sucks the air right above the ground, the facts are more dirt does get through these and every other type of low restriction filter when compared to oem paper filters supported by oil analysis tests from high dust environments.

Too much coffee this morning!

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by cigaro on 02/14/06 at 08:07:30

When do you use a 155 main jet? I've heard that number mentioned here, too? I'm 925 feet above sea level. Is the 152 a better option? When I do the reject, or have it done, I want to address all levels of the acceleration.

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by Dynobob on 02/14/06 at 08:21:11

Reelthing wrote:

more dirt does get through these and every other type of low restriction filter when compared to oem paper filters supported by oil analysis tests from high dust environments.

I avoid K&N filters for this reason. More performance at the cost of reduced engine life ? I'll stick to OEM paper filters.

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by Reelthing on 02/14/06 at 08:25:50

on the '02 when I really opened up the air box the 155 seemed not too rich - better performance than the 152.5 - not that could tell really - but the jardine pipe I have doesn't flow as well as some others - these HD SEII pipes may very well need one with a very low restriction air filter like a big pod. But in the end you really need to eye ball the spark plug to know for sure.

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by Ed_L. on 02/14/06 at 10:32:54

I've had a 152.5 main, sporty muffler and K+N drop in air filter on my bike for about a year and have had no problems with the plug fouling. Install the 152.5 and take it from there.

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by tankerblaze on 02/15/06 at 12:25:42

I'm interested!!!

Quick questions though? I've seen the stage 1 kits from Dynojet, should I replace the needle when using this jet?

Also, where can I obtain a replacement idle jet?

Tanker out!

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by Savage_Rob on 02/15/06 at 12:33:48

The DJ kit comes with a new needle, which is adjustable, and that is really the only thing I liked about the kit. The adjustable needle will not require you to modify the white spacer but the the kit is about $50, if I remember correctly. You can accomplish the same thing by modifying the spacer (or replacing it with one about 1/2 to 2/3 the thickness of the original) and getting a couple of $3 main jets. I bought the DJ kit not knowing any better at the time. I wouldn't do it again if I had it to do over.

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by 911radioman on 02/25/06 at 19:00:44

necropsy wrote:

woah!
shouldn't he be getting either a K&N or go a size smaller?

Fill me in here... since I have shaved the spacer and went up to a 152.5 mod, is this total upgrade not truly complete unless I switch to the K&N filter?

I did pull my plug the other day and it is a tad black. Now, that said, should I back my main jet down one size or just put the K&N filter in and that will counterbalance the bit of sooting on the plug?

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by USCG Cremeans on 02/25/06 at 19:43:10

here is what im going to try once i finish rebuilding her... any advice on my set-up would be nice.. also im at right at sea level, well maybe about 30ft up at the moment haha

155 main jet (stock since im rockin an 87)
1/2 spacer
mixture screw i will adjust once i can play with it at idle
k&n pod rc-1250
sporster muffler
and the rest is stock (pilot, etc.)

id love to get as much performance as possible out of this without buying a different carb.. should i do anything to the pilot? how about a 157.5.. is that overkill?

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by pgolden on 02/25/06 at 20:49:42

Go ahead and get a K&N drop-in. $35.75 and you never buy another filter, you just clean and reoil the K&N.

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by 911radioman on 02/25/06 at 21:07:09

Here's my thing that I can tell so far with what I've done...

It appears the bottom has dropped out of my fuel mileage. Granted, I expected a little drop due to increasing fuel flow, but my last tank checked out at 41 mpg.

I'm not heavy handed when I ride, and keep a pretty even throttle hand when out on the highway. Now, as I said before, the plug when I pulled it the other day seemed a bit sooty -- no wet fouling, just a dry sort of soot. Tells me it is rich -- correct?

By what I read, the K&N by increasing air flow should serve to lean that back out, right?

If I don't see any leveling out of the mileage, I'm considering backing up one size on the main jet to say, a 150, possibly.

Right now, I'm having a difficult time seeing where everybody is making these mods and still averaging around 50 mpg when mine has tanked. Kinda aggravating, since the tank on this bike is milk jug sized anyhow...

I'm just trying to pinpoint any area where I may be off a bit, or may need to do additional to level this thing out. Performance of the bike is great powerwise. But I'm not impressed at all with what it has done to my fuel economy.

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by bentwheel on 02/25/06 at 21:13:24

USCG Cremeans wrote:

here is what im going to try once i finish rebuilding her... any advice on my set-up would be nice..

You may not have to do the 1/2 spacer mod. You have an '87 so you can move the clip on the jet needle instead, to get nearly the same result. The distance between the middle groove and the bottom groove equals 1/3 the thickness of the spacer IIRC. You have a 47.5 pilot jet so keep in mind your pilot screw is normally about 3 turns out.
http://www.bikepics.com/pics/pics/suzuki-savage-86-bikepics-486652.jpg

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by bentwheel on 02/25/06 at 21:37:48

911radioman wrote:

It sounds to me that you are operating your bike in the mid range or even low speed circuit of your carb. That 1/2 spacer mod you did is causing the richness in this zone. It is also likely the cause for lost mpg. It happened to me when I enrichened my slow speed circuit. When making carb modifications, do one change at a time and closely verify your results. Remember your carb has an idle circuit; a slow speed circuit, a mid range, and a high speed circuit. If you want to test your main jet for richness/leaness, do it a wide open throttle.

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by 911radioman on 02/25/06 at 21:46:58

Kinda late on the doing it in stages now. :D

So should I go back and revisit the spacer and add some thickness there? What should my steps be here?

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by bentwheel on 02/25/06 at 21:57:54

I would replace the original spacer or if you shaved it, then add a couple of tiny washers. Then readjust your pilot screw and see if it will allow for a half turn in or so.

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by 911radioman on 02/25/06 at 22:12:54

I sure appreciate your help on this! I know I'm close with it, just figuring out where to tweak it to make it perfect. I shaved the spacer so I'll just pick up a couple of new spacers from the dealer. I'll keep one the stock thickness and then the other one I'll file to a happy medium between the one I already have that is filed by 1/2 and the new full size one.

That should allow me to experiment and see where it runs the best at.

Thanks again!!!

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by necropsy on 02/26/06 at 05:39:38

911radioman wrote:

For optimum performance/mpg I would suggest one or the other. The faster air and fuel get through the engine the more power you're creating, you're just not pushing enough air into the engine for the amount of fuel you're putting in. the choice is yours, but keep in mind more air is going to mean more power, with less filtration. That would be my choice, new K&N rather than screwing with the jets anymore. This should also help with fuel economy since the fuel should burn more thoroughly, thereby creating more power/less waste.

But I'm talking tech, I haven't done these mods myself (garage is too cold right now, but they're coming real soon)

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by USCG Cremeans on 02/26/06 at 06:32:12

my 87 carb didnt have the grooves to change the space on the white spacer, so i filled it like everyone else.

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by Dynobob on 02/26/06 at 11:38:56

911radioman - I have a 157.5 main jet and 1/2 spacer and last I checked I got 52 mpg. This was on a group ride and I was twisting the throttle quite a bit. You should be getting closer to 55 mpg.

I'm not so sure the white spacer is the problem. I'd check for air leaks and/or exhaust leaks.

I think you'll find everyone here running the half spacer is getting at least 50 mpg.

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by 911radioman on 02/26/06 at 11:43:23

My exhaust is buttoned down tight the best I can tell. I checked those connections when I installed the MAC muffler.

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by 911radioman on 02/26/06 at 13:44:41

necropsy wrote:

So if I understand you correctly, the white spacer mod, rejet and MAC muffler upgrade isn't totally correct or complete unless the K&N filter is installed as well?

I just want to make sure I'm understanding all sides of this issue here...

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by 911radioman on 02/26/06 at 13:47:16

Dynobob wrote:

Interesting. I've got one person saying the white spacer could be the problem, one person saying exhaust leaks, and another person saying add the K&N air filter and leave everything else the way I have it.

Talk about confused... ???

Yet again, in reading in "another forum", I see where rejetting is recommended on the Savage with no white spacer mod whatsoever.

I just know I'm missing something here, I just can't put my finger on what it is.

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by bentwheel on 02/26/06 at 14:20:19

911radioman wrote:

You have been given three ideas on how to solve your problem. That is a good thing. You already discounted the leaky exhaust theory so now you have two left. The filter replacement requires you to order one and wait for it to arrive. Right now, you can go to Radio Shack and buy two #4 washers and install them under your shaved spacer and see if that will lean out your carb enough. Don't get frustrated, we'll get you through this. Remember what I said about doing one thing at a time.

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by 911radioman on 02/26/06 at 14:40:19

bentwheel wrote:

Oh I know. Frustration is exactly what it is, and not at anybody here by any means! I just know that I'm within "shooting distance" here and just can't get the last bit of it figured out. :D

Let me run this by you...

I just went outside to the garage and fired the bike up. Let it warm up for several minutes and put it through some paces revving the engine up and down. On decel when I'm approaching the idle range, I'm getting a bit of pop and a wisp of black smoke when its almost all the way down to idle. The black smoke then disappears.

Right now, I'm 1 1/2 turns out on my pilot. Any leaner and she backfires and shoots a little fire, any richer doesn't really seem to do anything other than I figure I'm sooting my plug up.

Would that indicate to you that I need to add more back to the spacer? (Bearing in mind that I am at 1/2 spacer thickness now).

I'm committed to taking this one step at a time, and I think there is something in the idle circuit that is still not quite right.

Guys, bear with me here. I know I'm rehashing the same thing over and over, but I'm just trying to get this thing down perfect (or as close as I can).

Thanks for your help in advance!

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by necropsy on 02/26/06 at 15:12:23

As I stated in my last post, I haven't done these mods myself. I'm only speaking in tech and theory. Having said that....
Just about everybody on this board has shaved the white spacer. Why? Mainly to get rid of backfiring at throttle roll-off.(also to get a little more umpf !!). this allows the needle to stay open just a little more so as not to create a lean condition. Nobody has complained that this has made their bike worse. As bentwheel stated, this is a quick, cheap and and easy fix, but I'm not sure that will help. The way I see it, you've taken care of making sure the emissions are getting out of the engine faster (MAC muffler) and you upsized the jet to get the fuel to the engine faster, but you haven't addressed geting more air into the engine to match the size of the jet installed (you went up 2 sizes when you should have gone 1). To equal out this equation you need to install a high flow air filter or go down 1 size jet.
This is a link to a website that reelthing posted awhile back.

http://www.motorcyclecarbs.com/Motorcycle_Carburetor_Jetting__W7.cfm

Hope it helps

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by 911radioman on 02/26/06 at 15:23:09

Thanks guy! What you said makes sense now that I see it written out that way. Guess the K&N will be next on the agenda, because I'm really not in the mood to tear the carb apart again to swap jets. :D

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by 911radioman on 02/26/06 at 15:29:46

pgolden wrote:

Go ahead and get a K&N drop-in. $35.75 and you never buy another filter, you just clean and reoil the K&N.

What are you guys using to reoil your filters? I notice the recharge kit that is available for these. Are these necessary, or are you using some other type of oil?

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by Savage_Rob on 02/26/06 at 17:50:53

I use the K&N stuff. I have K&N filters in both cages and the bike and the same detergent and oil are used for any of 'em. You can Google air filter oil and get a number of hits on various brands and merchants. Most should be fine in a K&N, since it's metal and cotton. I'd be a little more cautious on foam filters and use only the recommended oils, as incorrect oils might dissolve the foam.

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by babbalou on 02/27/06 at 20:19:55

911radioman wrote:

What are you guys using to reoil your filters? I notice the recharge kit that is available for these. Are these necessary, or are you using some other type of oil?

Here's an odd idea; I've been lubing my K&N filter with honey. Mixed it with hot water, poured it on & let the water evaporate. Now the element is REALLY sticky. Dust ain't getting past that! ;D I'll rinse it out & do it again this summer. Probably no better than oil but I tend to think up weird ideas sometimes to see how they work. No, I don't park it near antbeds. :)

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by 911radioman on 02/27/06 at 20:51:32

babbalou wrote:

You might want to stay away from beehives too! :D

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by babbalou on 02/27/06 at 21:06:25

911radioman wrote:

You might want to stay away from beehives too! :D

Didn't think of that. ;D

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by Savage_Rob on 02/28/06 at 05:21:05

Heat can crystallize honey too. If that happens, it won't be very sticky anymore.

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by JerryAssburger on 07/28/06 at 01:08:20

Well Crud- I read with HUGE INTEREST 911radioman's thread, only to find it 5 months old and with no ending. I am experiencing a similar problem, and was hoping to find the answer.
My set up is this: SE2 pipe (loud!), stock air filter, 152.5 main, stock pilot, 7/10ths spacer distance, de-snorkel, and mixture screw about 1.25 turns out (stripped and jammed). It is averaging 49 mpg, no hot-rodding, tire pressure and brake-drag checked.
I've noticed the top of the header getting a bit bluer instead of the brownish gold it used to be. It's been 3 tankfulls since the mods. Bike runs really nice- kind of a flat spot at 1/4 light load throttle. Going to check the plug tomorrow.
I might try removing 1 of my needle washers, bringing it to slightly less than "1/2 white spacer" but I think that'll mess up my mileage even more.
Any of your experience would really be appreciated!

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by lancer on 07/28/06 at 05:47:01

Your blueing pipe would suggest a lean condition. Your flat spot at about 1/4 throttle would suggest the same.
With the pilot adj screw being stuck at 1 1/4 turns out you cannot richen the mix as it is, so you might go to the next larger size pilot and remove some more of the washers to get the needle to at least the 1/2 white spacer position ... if not more.
You have the SE2 muffler, which is a very high flow muffler and thus requires plenty of fuel to mix with all of that air. I think you should also consider going to a 155 main jet.
Do the changes one at a time and note how the bike is running and what the plug looks like. If you start getting BLACK SMOKE and/or the engine seems to be bogging down then you are getting too rich ... otherwise ... let 'er have the fuel until then. When you hit the place where it starts smoking/bogging, stop and back up one size. That will be your best jet size or needle setting.

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by JerryAssburger on 07/28/06 at 16:32:00

THX for the info. I'll attack it Sunday; I have to go to work tonight, so I'll pay extra attention to how it acts at different throttle positions. There's a website that kind of helps with this....

http://www.factorypro.com/tech/carbtun.html

I'm hoping that if I must richen it up, that I don't lose my mpg.

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by JerryAssburger on 07/31/06 at 09:31:27

Brief update. Now at 155 main/ 1/2 spacer distance, and the bike seems to run a lot smoother at 1/4 throttle on up. No detectable difference on the top end, but a friend was following me and said no smoke. At least I'm not too rich yet. No clue on the mileage, but thx for all the help so far.

Title: Re: Verify this jet for me?
Post by JerryAssburger on 08/14/06 at 21:46:36

Sorry to be a pest, Lancer... Just wanted to let you know that you were right on with this one. The 155main and 1/2 spacer seem to be working really well, and because my muffler was so annoyingly loud, I welded the straight-thru port on it shut and left the baffled side open. MUCH quieter, less back firing, and now the 1/8 - 1/4 throttle response is better. I'll run a couple of tanks through it to see how everything looks. Right now I'm still at 49 mpg. THANK YOU for all the help.