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Message started by AussieSavage on 03/10/06 at 02:25:46

Title: Savage has top end noise
Post by AussieSavage on 03/10/06 at 02:25:46

Hi,

Today I adjusted the valve clearance on the inlet and outlet valves and to my surprise they did not have a gap. This is my first check since I have purchased the bike.

Engine was rebuilt 19,000km ago by a Dealership as well. So what I did was back out the lock nuts on the exhaust and inlet valves and adjusted them back in to 0.08mm with a thickness gauge,

Making sure the piston was at top dead centre on the compression stroke. Checking also the engraved line on the left end of the generator rotor was aligned with the notch on the generator cover.

Put everything back together and started the bike. Now I can hear a loud tapping noise coming from the rocker arms? Does anyone know why this is happening?

Will take the valve inspection covers off tomorrow and try again.

Any suggestions would be helpful.

Thanks
AussieSavage

Title: Re: Savage has top end noise
Post by 911radioman on 03/10/06 at 02:41:58

Double check that TDC. I know you said you did it on the compression stroke, but if for some odd reason you think you did but didn't -- you'll get a god awful racket.

If the valves are adjusted correctly, you should hear a faint tapping, but not a loud rattling.

Title: Re: Savage has top end noise
Post by AussieSavage on 03/10/06 at 03:20:07

I am sure it was set at TDC, but will double check tomorrow.

Thanks for the help.

Cheers

AussieSavage

Title: Re: Savage has top end noise
Post by 911radioman on 03/10/06 at 03:40:10

To be honest, I don't know how else that noise would get there unless it was adjusted on the wrong stroke. If it was adjusted on the wrong stroke, when you go to check your gap, it will likely be double of what spec should be.

Title: Re: Savage has top end noise
Post by Reelthing on 03/10/06 at 05:08:10

Sounds like the cam shaft had some presure on the rockers is why you found no gap when you started.
After you set them turn the engine some - forward of course - and just a little before or after tdcc see if the gaps not bigger, if it is set them again.

Let me stress that during this you only turn the engine forward - since this cam is chain driven not gear driven you will create a bit a slop if you turn the engine backward trying to align the the marks.

Title: Re: Savage has top end noise
Post by bentwheel on 03/10/06 at 09:58:26

I agree with the others here. If you increased your clearance and it started making noise, then your clearance is likely excessive. When finding TDC on the compression stroke, turn your engine manually counterclockwise from the left side. when the intake valve compresses you are on the intake stroke. Continue turning your engine until the piston nears its highest elevation. That is the compression stroke. It is then when you watch for the marks to align. Remember the marks fall into alignment twice during the four stroke process. It could be you adjusted your valve lash 180 degrees off.

Title: Re: Savage has top end noise
Post by Max_Morley on 03/10/06 at 10:07:42

My information says valve set to 0.003- 0.005 ". 0.008 is double the mid point and they would clatter for sure. My 96 started the noise last year and upon further checking last week I found the cam chain tensioner worn almost to the point of coming apart. A new chain, tensioner, the spring clip that holds it on the pin and side cover gasket are due in today. I expect the noise to be gone when those parts are reinstalled. Max

Title: Re: Savage has top end noise
Post by bentwheel on 03/10/06 at 10:15:03

You are not on the same page Max. Aussie is talking millimeters and you are talking inches.

Title: Re: Savage has top end noise
Post by slavy on 03/10/06 at 13:39:00

Just put the piston in TDC C O M P R E S S I O N and adjust the valves.

Title: Re: Savage has top end noise
Post by AussieSavage on 03/11/06 at 02:37:53

The advise from all of you has been great. I took the dreaded tank off and started from scratch again today.

Put everything back together and the noise has disappeared. There is a chance I could have measured valve clearance, while moving the crankshaft in reverse on the first attempt.

Taking the old girl for a 400km ride tomorrow, lets hope all goes well.

Thanks guys, the help is appreciated

Cheers
Aussie Savage

Title: Re: Savage has top end noise
Post by Digger on 12/25/06 at 14:18:37

Max_Morley wrote:

FWIW....Good point, Max.

Although Aussie said he measured the clearance in mm, just be advised that I've made that mistake before (with an '81 Gold Wing). I set the valve clearances at the mm value, except I used the "inch" feeler gauge.

It can happen....

Title: Re: Savage has top end noise
Post by verslagen1 on 12/26/06 at 22:39:53

I did the same as aussie my 1st time adj the valves. Followed wrong way Clymer step by step. And being my first time I double checked. Being an old VW owner, I know how to adj the valves and when they didn't measure out right the second time I knew something was wrong. Flipped over by hand a few more times and I knew what it was... cw was printed instead of ccw. Once you know this (confirmed here by my new found friends) all worked out correctly.

I can only hope that some day that I will be of some help to someone as you all are to me.

Title: Re: Savage has top end noise
Post by Fido_the_Cat on 12/27/06 at 18:24:16

verslagen1 wrote:

Your day has come! I have followed the Clymer way and could not get myself to cross the point of no return. (Left them alone). Validating my thoughts with the Tech Manual I tried it a second time turning CCW. I could not get the "play" that is mentioned. There was no "jiggle" or lift or anything else. I spent a good 2 hours trying to get to TDC. I even used the Screwdriver method and matching the marks. They just don't seem to match up and I can never get the "Play" in the valves.
Talked to a MAC at the Stealer he said your not ready yet, you need 7k on the clock before you adjust them.
I admit I don't know what I'm looking for and would trip over it if I did.
TDC happens twice during the cycle. If they are 180 out of sync what else would tell me that. I have read the Tech Section and I can do the adjustment if I was sure that I was properly lined up. I reaize turning CW will make it sloppy. But CCW does not get me to loose rockers.
I need some assurance to pass the point of no return. My hat off to those that tried and got the rattle and slapping.

Title: Re: Savage has top end noise
Post by justin_o_guy on 12/27/06 at 18:45:20

If the plug is out & you turn the engine over with a finger stuck in the plug hole you can find compression stroke. Then you will know when the marks line up you are at TDC compression. If you are there & there is no free play then no matter what the mechanic says, you NEED to adjust. Since you tried to get free play & you tried several times I would say you really need to adjust them. If you turn the engine till the marks line up & there is no play, then turn it again, 360 degrees, & still no freee play, you have to have been at TDC compression once. Liable to burn a valve if you don't fix that.Good Luck. I took my feeler gauge apart so I could use just one blade at a time. It's easier if you bend the end a bit so it slips easier between the rocker & valve.

Title: Re: Savage has top end noise
Post by verslagen1 on 12/27/06 at 20:05:52

I would say you need to turn over the crank by hand until you can identify each part of the cycle.
Push, blow, suck and squeeze. Or power, exhaust, intake and compression.
During compression and power cycles both valves are closed. During the exhaust cycle, exhaust valves are open. And during the intake only the intake are open.
spin it around until you are confident. You may feel like you're back in grade school, but do it. This is a basic skill that you have to know.

Title: Re: Savage has top end noise
Post by vroom1776 on 12/28/06 at 11:59:53

well, in the worst case scenario, you can take the head cover off of the bike (you will have to reseal it...). then turn the crank. tdc compression will be when the cam lobes are mroe or less down and the rockers are riding on the circular part of the cam profile. since the stock savage cam is so mild, you can pretty much do it anywhere on the round part.

Title: Re: Savage has top end noise
Post by Fido_the_Cat on 12/29/06 at 21:25:43

vroom1776 wrote:

Thank-you for the explaning the technical term "More or Less" (I was reading your Adjusting the Valves) in the Tech section and now you clarified why finding TDC is not as exact as the marks being perfect alignment.

Justin-o-guy wrote:

That was exactly my opinion when I talked to the service manager. I understand that he had other calls and customers waiting. Does that mean I should get smoke blown at me?

verslagen1 wrote:

Push, blow, suck and squeeze. Or power, exhaust, intake and compression.
You may feel like you're back in grade school, but do it. This is a basic skill that you have to know.

This is Basically the knowledge I needed to grasp before I would be comfortable enough to move forward

Gentlemen. Thank-you. Hopefully this weekend (44 and to nice not to ride) or next weekend I will shut her down for repairs and MODS. You have made it so easy, even a geek can do it.

Title: Re: Savage has top end noise
Post by justin_o_guy on 12/29/06 at 21:32:52

Considering you had no slack in the valve train with the engine cold I would be afraid to ride it myself. When the valves get hot the get longer, slightly, & if there is no free play cold, the valves may not seat well after the engine warms up. Sure would stink to burn a valve..

Title: Re: Savage has top end noise
Post by Fido_the_Cat on 01/01/07 at 21:34:03

I made another attempt to adjust the valves again, and I do have every intention of doing so. The cover for the crank. The slotted cap. I spent way to much time and buggered it up a bit that " I need to find a tool" before proceeding. Will get intouch will a local Honda-ship to get the special tool.
Unless, in your wisdom You have better ideas.
I have moved on to tearing the speedo apart to fix for the last time the Speedo Rattle.

Title: Re: Savage has top end noise
Post by justin_o_guy on 01/01/07 at 21:47:31

Cant find a piece O meteal the right thickness & shape it to fit the groove? Grab it with the vise grips & give it a twist? Try a quarter& grind one side off a bit? Get it down to about 1/2 diameter & it will be in the groove plenty. I was given a monster screwdriver that doubles as a pry bar & it handles the chore well, but if I didn't have it I wouldn't pay for a tool, I would build it.

The speedo rattle went away when I stuck a thin adhesive backed rubberish strip under it. Just a cushion between tank & speedo kills the buzz. 2 sided tape, the foam kind, should work. The stuff I used is from a window unit air conditioner,

Title: Re: Savage has top end noise
Post by Digger on 01/23/07 at 19:56:19

After struggling with conventional feeler gauges, I got some of these:

http://www.motionpro.com/motorcycle/tools/tappet_feeler_gauges/

Haven't used them yet, but they look to be the sh*t!

Title: Re: Savage has top end noise
Post by Savage_Rob on 01/24/07 at 09:25:02

Digger wrote:

After struggling with conventional feeler gauges, I got some of these:

http://www.motionpro.com/motorcycle/tools/tappet_feeler_gauges/

Haven't used them yet, but they look to be the sh*t!

I have those and I like them.

Title: Re: Savage has top end noise
Post by Greg_650 on 01/24/07 at 20:10:57

AussieSavage wrote:

Did you make it back?

Title: Re: Savage has top end noise
Post by Fido_the_Cat on 01/24/07 at 20:50:43

Sorry gang for taking so long to update. I don't get online as much as l would like to. Valves are fine. I did take Heed to your suggestions. I parked the bike knowing it's not running right and then when I had time "put my finger in the hole and found TDC. And I needed it. runs fine now. Did the speedo fix and added the A/C padding. Last time I have to worry about the rattle. Moved on, did the White Spacer, Seat Riser, and fuel filter MODS. Next I want to check/ replace the fork seals/oil then do a complete spring cleanup/checkup so I'm ready to go. No I am not going to wait for spring to ride, I just want to be in good condition when it arrives. Of course then I need to swap out the muffler and get new jets so I can fine tune the carb. Zowwee!! I can't be stopped. Except for riding of course.
It must be pretty rewarding to watch someone who knows "only enough to get in trouble" progress to the point that they can confidently say, "Dealers forget it. I'll call ya IF I need ya".
The only thing I need is what I can't buy, The time to do it all. Sadly, duty calls, chores before rec time.
Thanks to everyone and to this site for compiling an indispensable wealth of knowledge and some hometown good humor.
All the best to the best.