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Message started by firsts40 on 01/25/07 at 19:43:07

Title: Rattle when accelerating
Post by firsts40 on 01/25/07 at 19:43:07

I have noticed a rattle when I accelerate. I don't get the rattling when the clutch is disengaged or when it is in neatral, only during acceleration. There is not lose in power or performance in any way. I just started noticing it since the weather has turned damp and cold again. Once I get up to cruising speed, and stop accelerating, it stops. It appears to be coming from the lower case, but I can not be certain of that, and also appears to be on the right side (same as pipe). Before I talk to the shop,I am going to make sure there is nothing loose externally, and also try to get some ideas what it may be.
Any ideas?? :-/ ???

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by Rockin_John on 01/25/07 at 19:52:10

Just a wild stab in the dark here. Weather / humidity change can cause condensate. Maybe the engine is 'pinging' from bad gas / loss of octane. Maybe try a fuel aditive, and a fill-up with premium fuel. It's a cheap thing to try, and there is no harm in it.

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by firsts40 on 01/25/07 at 20:08:00

That could be the problem. I went on a ride with the Patriot Guard today, about 300 miles and had to fill up three times. All three fill ups were with premium, but the initial fill up was with mid grade. The fill ups were in areas of the state that has had a lot of rain.
It don't really sound like a ping you get from low octane though, it is more of a rattle.
Thanks for your ideas any ways. Will consider your idea.

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by TVR on 01/25/07 at 20:23:48

Do you perhaps carry a sabre?

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by Kropatchek on 01/26/07 at 01:34:15

When riding it's very difficult to check where the noise is comming from.
I would check the LH side, the forward belt drive gear.
Remove the cover. Take care that the bolts, washers and rubber grommets stay in the same place as they are all different lenghts.
Check for rubbing of the beltgear on the inside of the cover.
When you're at it check the tightness of the nut ( torque is 130Nm).

Greetz
Kropatchek ;D

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by sparkett on 01/26/07 at 03:49:49

You didnt say how many miles on her, think of checking the cam chain adjuster?

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by smokin_blue on 01/26/07 at 04:56:18

sounds to me more like it could be a loose part/cover. Bike vibrations change based on both rpm and load. I would give both sides of the bike a good once over for loose covers or brackets.....side covers, heat shields, battery box covers, saddle bag brackets etc.

I noticed an increase in vibes in my GIXER based streetfighter and that turnded out that I had 3 engine bolts that needed to be snugged up. I had just assembled the bike after powder coating and all the bolts, brackets and engine had now settled in to the thick paint in some places and was a little loose. Made all the difference in the world.

Another thought...try carefully placing a (gloved) hand down on the frame, engine case, etc when you hear it and you might be able to feel where it is coming from. (just stay away from those hot and moving parts!! or all the noise will be coming from you :-[)

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by smokin_blue on 01/26/07 at 04:58:47

Also, you didn't mention...is it independent of what gear you are in?? (Although this one can be tough since it can be hard to replicate exact engine loading and dynamics in each gear. so only happening in top gear might not indicate it is top gear but rather you really need to load or lug the engine to produce the vibe/noise)

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by Greg_650 on 01/26/07 at 08:39:59

firsts40 wrote:

2 ideas here...

First, I wouldn't worry about water in the gas. Not the problem if the bike is running. You can save 20 cents per gallon and use regular gas, too. The Savage has low compression and it runs just fine on it. Just a waste of money. Might even burn cleaner, too.

Second, my spouse's Savage had a mysterious rattle when it was new...and it was exactly where Kropatchek has mentioned. That left side pulley cover can actually vibrate against the belt guard. When we would be riding, I could hear it when I was beside her bike going down the road.

At the time (on the road side), I took a wild guess and jammed a piece of paper in there. Bingo, it worked. That paper stayed there for quite awhile until I got around to messing with the cover :)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/Rattle01.jpg

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by firsts40 on 01/26/07 at 09:01:39

Thanks for the info guys. It does it in all gears with no change in sound. Will check everything I can get to and think of.

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by Greg_650 on 01/26/07 at 09:07:48

Of course. If you had a tach, you could nail it down to the same RPMs produce the same frequency.

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by serowbot on 01/26/07 at 09:11:07

Try putting palm pressure on your speedometer housing, they often develop a rattle.

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by thumperclone on 01/26/07 at 09:40:28

just a thought.... hows your oil level???my 06 consumes oil on longer highway speed runs...

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by Savage_Rob on 01/26/07 at 10:51:55

Along with the speedo as a known vibration source, the headlight can cause noisy vibrations if you've installed a Suzuki headlight visor.

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by Tammi on 01/26/07 at 11:01:47

My gas cap vibrated and made a rattling noise at speed. I fixed it by cutting a wide o-ring out of a scrap sheet of rubber and fitting that on top of the existing rubber seal on the gas cap.

The extra thickness caused the rattle to stop.

Cheers. Tammi

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by justin_o_guy on 01/26/07 at 12:43:06

I may try that just to see if I can affect the gas leak..
I never noticed the speedo rattle as an "acceleration related" racket. It seemed to be an rpm thing. High pitched buzz/rattle, annoying as hekk.

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by Savage_Rob on 01/26/07 at 13:50:49

justin_o_guy wrote:

I may try that just to see if I can affect the gas leak..

Your gas cap is supposed to be vented. If you overfill it, it will spew. I always fill it on the sidestand until the fuel just kisses the bottom of the filler tube, then tilt the bike side-to-side gently to "burp" it. Then I put the cap on and go.

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by john1652 on 01/26/07 at 15:03:34

Savage_Rob wrote:

. If you overfill it, it will spew. I always kiss the bottom, then gently "burp" it. .

Man this is supposed to be a family site!!!!!

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by firsts40 on 01/26/07 at 23:13:57

Thumperclone, my 06 does use some oil on a long Hwy run, couple hundred miles running 60 -70, also. I checked the oil level and it appeared to be OK. The rattle is, I guess what you could call a heavy rattle conpared to a pinging type noise. Remeber the old lug nut in the hub cap noise? That would be pretty close. No increase in noise through the gears. Throw the clutch and stops.
I plan on spending some time in the morning attempting to find the source and fixing it. HAVE TO!!!!!

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by firsts40 on 01/26/07 at 23:18:43

Greg_650. I think you may be correct. Tonight when I came home (caging it), I hit the pully cover with my hand , and I cold hear it hit something alse metal. Didn't have time to play with it tonight, to late and cold.

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by Greg_650 on 01/27/07 at 06:43:00

As mentioned above, I had forgotten about the speedo rattle, too.

If you have some place where you can get up to speed without a helmet, you might be able to nail it down a bit better.

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by firsts40 on 01/27/07 at 06:51:24

I think I may have found the problem. I was checking everything that is attatched by screws and bolts, and found that I have play in my rear belt sprocket on the rear wheel. The wife just come down sick a few minutes ago, so I haven't had the chence to check the bolts yet. maybe I will be lucket and just find the bolts loose, if not I guess it will have to go in the shop. Still under warrentee though.
If that is what it is, I will be more than happy to post it in case some one else has the same problem.

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by Greg_650 on 01/27/07 at 06:57:39

firsts40 wrote:

Nope. That play is normal. It's supposed to do that. There are other posts that discuss that too.

Yeah. Take it to the shop for a rattle. Been there, done that :P

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by Dr_Jim on 01/27/07 at 08:26:59

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by Digger on 01/27/07 at 20:33:54

Dr_Jim wrote:

If the rattle is kind of deep-sounding and down in the lower case - try checking the lower front engine mount.

This is a very long bolt that runs from left-to-right through the kickstand/control assembly, through a spacer, through the engine, through another spacer, and is retained by a chrome capnut under the rightside footpeg.

Mine kept getting loose until I used some Red Locktite ("There, that ought to hold the little B*tard...") and it did make a very audible rattle under acceleration.

Cheers

Jim

Good point....there is a rather long spacer down there that will rattle if this bolt is not torqued down properly.

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by firsts40 on 01/27/07 at 23:15:23

Dr._Jim, I will check that bolt in the morning. I hope that is the problem so I don't have to take it to the shop. If I can't find the problem tomorrow, Monday morning it goes to the shop. Even though it is still under warrentee, I know it will cost me something.
Thanks for the info guys
??? :o

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by justin_o_guy on 01/28/07 at 01:14:37

If it's under warranty they won't charge ya.

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by Greg_650 on 01/28/07 at 06:50:24

firsts40 wrote:

No fair. You are supposed to keep looking until you find it. Using the dealer is cheating. And besides, he'll just change a bunch of stuff, then give you a BS answer, then we won't learn anything, and then this thread goes in the toilet....

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by firsts40 on 01/28/07 at 11:45:51

No Greg_650, I know the dealer pretty well, and he has always leveled with me and gave me good info. I will pass on what he tells me, and I hope it will be something that I am embarrassed to tell because it is so simple.

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by Greg_650 on 01/28/07 at 13:00:02

firsts40 wrote:

Okay. We'll just wait with an "I told you so" when you return :)

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by justin_o_guy on 01/29/07 at 01:37:59

I have "I TOLD you so!" typed in a reply box just Sittin here waiting to hit the reply button. Yea, that's how mean I am allright. MMMwwaahhaahhhahhaa

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by Greg_650 on 01/29/07 at 08:15:42

I'll say one first...

I told you so!

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by Phelonius on 01/29/07 at 11:37:45

Outside of loose nuts or bolts, the most likely suspect is fuel knock. Make sure no moisture is in your gas. Use a an anti icer additive then ride until the tank is as empty as you dare. Fill it with the best grade of gas you can get.
With the good milage these bikes get, there is no valid reason for making your sweety drink rotgut!
I personally only use the best gas available in what ever area I am riding in. I don't insist my women drink beer if a good grade of Irish whisky is available. Why should I treat my real sweety any worse.
At 50 to 60 MPG she deserves respect. Give her the good stuff.

Phelonius

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by justin_o_guy on 01/29/07 at 19:09:07

Phelonius, I have read some of the things you say. You seem like a plenty decent type. Please don't take this as a personal shot. That notion, while the rationalization on the aded expense is understandable, since the difference in $$ is so low per tank, it's still a waste of $$ & the engine benefits not one bit. The only difference is octane. maybe an additive package difference, but nothing that would change the life of the engine or increase the performance. If it cou;d possibly be justified it would be widely accepted, because the oil companies have a real interest in selling all high dollar fuel they can. Study after study says, save the $$ & buy chrome, or bags or more tires. Lovin the bike by feedin it the best is understandable. Put that thing on a proper diet & use the savings to spoil her with pretty stuff to wear.

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by Reelthing on 01/30/07 at 06:43:57

Yeah a deviation into octane. This time of year I doubt that it matters. Summer ridding is another matter. I’m not expecting an increase in performance with Supper Shell (v-power for the youngsters) in this engine just more resistance to pre-ignition, while the aluminum head dissipates heat quite well and is far less likely to make the gas pop before the spark says it’s time I’ll still hedge my bet with higher octane fuel in hot stop and go traffic.

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by Savage_Rob on 01/30/07 at 07:46:42

I will agree on the point of octane. Low compression engines don't require it, but it could be beneficial (in hot weather in places with very high temps) for reducing the likelihood of preignition. That said, I would also agree that not all fuel is equal. Some places may have leaky tanks which acquire moisture or the fuel they buy may be of a lower quality (regardless of octane rating). I heartily agree with the sentiment that one should stick to high quality fuel. It just has nothing to do with the REGULAR/MID-GRAD/PREMIUM monikers. Some people will spend more for octane additives that do them no good the majority of the time (because they don't know any better) and the petroleum industry likes it that way.

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by Greg_650 on 01/30/07 at 08:40:35

Many of us are old enough to have experienced the days of leaded gas and high compression engines and all the issues that relate to octane levels. Some of us even have the mechanical knowledge to understand how and what happens when it pings or knocks.

We have a Dodge Ram 1500 with a little wimpy V6. Wasn't my choice. The spouse wanted THAT truck so we got it. The darned motor/tranny setup is really not up to that size truck with any kind of load or grade. Interestingly, it really does ping and knock with very little effort, if we use anything less than premium.

However, for years I've heard people talking about spark-knock or pre-ignition in their Savage. OH NO! AHHH! Not spark knock! Can't have that! It's almost a hysteria, and everyone is willing to defend their opinion with all kinds of unproven rhetoric :o

So, "Who has actually heard their Savage ping or knock?"

Not me. I think that if piss could burn, the Savage would run on it.

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by Reelthing on 01/30/07 at 09:52:01

Greg_650 wrote:

However, for years I've heard people talking about spark-knock or pre-ignition in their Savage. OH NO! AHHH! Not spark knock! Can't have that! It's almost a hysteria, and everyone is willing to defend their opinion with all kinds of unproven rhetoric :o

So, "Who has actually heard their Savage ping or knock?"

Not me. I think that if piss could burn, the Savage would run on it.

That's the rub - don't believe I ever could hear it - too much valve train and exhaust noise - perhaps the years in the oil industry has tainted my view - but I'll go with the ounce of prevention method - sort of like oil, syn here, can't prove that uniform length carbon bonds really do act more like bearings than the dyno stuff whos nonuniform bonds looks more like burlap - oh no not oil!

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by Phelonius on 01/30/07 at 11:17:17

justin_o_guy wrote:

I can agree with most of the truth in what you are saying, and indeed it can be proven that there is more energy in some lower octane fuels. However in my experience there is less tendency to knock in the higher octane, since all Japanese MC engines come from the manufacturer with very lean tuning of the carb, I don't mind the extra few cents per tank to have smoother starting and smoother running. I know it doesn't go any faster nor do I look for that, I just like smoother running and more dependable cold starts.
BTW, I do not take offense at others opinions, In fact I can frequently learn from them. After all, this is my first 650 Savage/S-40 bike. Nearly all the riders on this page know more about this particular bike than me.
I do have 43 years of riding experience on 42 other motorcycles I have owned, and can base my opinions on that. Please note that I said opinions not mandates.

Phelonius

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by firsts40 on 01/30/07 at 15:55:26

Well guys, I think you for all the replies I recieved concerning my rattle type noise. As far as "I told you so's". didn't happen.
Try to follow me on this. I was there when it was checked, so I know this is what it was.
The alignment marks for the belt adjustments were off. When the belt was last aligned, it was aligned by the marks which did put it close. With the belt being out of alignment, it was hiting the belt guide, which in turn cause it to come ever so slightly loose. The rattle was caused by the guide being loose, and the slight squeek was the belt.
I was lucky because there wasn't many miles put on it in this condition, so there was no damage done, except to my mind.
It proved the domino effect of things happening. One little problem causing another little problem until you have a major problem.
Thanks for all your replies guys, they were saved incase of another problem I run into, and maybe I will already have the answer.
I will be gone for a few weeks. Talk to you all when I return

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by justin_o_guy on 01/30/07 at 22:03:02

Phelonious, you get a bike, ride it a year & then get a different one? Have you managed to hold on to any that were just too good to let go of? Your all time favorite bike? Ever have a Moto Guzzi?Hekk, you've owned more bikes than I've sat on. Surely you have something to share.. well, speak up man,, speak up,,,

Maybe I will try a tank O premium ^ see if it quiets the beast any,,

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by Greg_650 on 01/31/07 at 11:27:31

Reelthing wrote:

Okay, how about this?...

If you can hear pinging or knock in an auto engine...through the water jacketing and the hood, fenders, firewall, etc. Why wouldn't you hear a "strange noise" above the ordinary ones on your open air cooled engine.?

And what about the fact that the Suzuki MOM says that the Savage is supposed to run on regular unleaded?

And while we're using an ounce of prevention...how about the fact that premium is slower and cooler burning than regular, which could very possibly leave carbon build-up on the piston and combustion chamber? That carbon will then reduce your performance and could also cause the very thing that you are trying to prevent....pre-ignition.

My ounce of prevention is cheaper too.

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by Phelonius on 01/31/07 at 11:42:28

justin_o_guy wrote:

The longest I ever kept one was a pair of them that I had from 1978 to 1995. I frequently have more than one and once had six in my stable at one time.
I confess, I am a lifelong motorcycle addict with no intention of reforming myself.

Phelonius

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by Digger on 01/31/07 at 19:01:49

Greg_650 wrote:

And while we're using an ounce of prevention...how about the fact that premium is slower and cooler burning than regular, which could very possibly leave carbon build-up on the piston and combustion chamber? That carbon will then reduce your performance and could also cause the very thing that you are trying to prevent....pre-ignition.

Good point.

I used to have a GT750 Suzuki (a "Water Buffalo") that liked to ping on regular gas. But, when I tried premium in it, the the plug on the center cylinder would wet-foul.

Since so many Savages seem to be hard on plugs, I thought I'd mention that.

Title: Re: Rattle when accelerating
Post by Greg_650 on 01/31/07 at 21:06:02

Digger wrote:

Thank you...

But, of course, we know that your incredible, extreme power, frame twisting, red light to red light, scary wonder "Water Buffalo" was a 2 stroke with an oil mix....but you got the point. If it doesn't burn, it leaves a mess in there.

You are right. The bottom line is a clean burn.