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General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Newbie, and tensioner headaches
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Message started by K1200LTryder on 04/10/07 at 05:01:38

Title: Newbie, and tensioner headaches
Post by K1200LTryder on 04/10/07 at 05:01:38

Hello folks, I'm very glad I've found this forum. I've been reading as much as I can find about the inherent timing chain/tensioner problems, and since the Savage is a new addition, I know I'm going to have to tackle this issue ASAP.

First of all, what is the parts cost of a new tensioner, and sliders, and the chain itself.

2nd, are these OEM parts, or are aftermarket parts available ?

3rd, can the job be done with the engine in the bike, or better off pulling the engine out and "bench" repairing?

Thanks for the help, I'm glad to see there are lots of Thumper Guru's here !

Title: Re: Newbie, and tensioner headaches
Post by Savage_Rob on 04/10/07 at 05:37:12

Do a few searches and you'll get a lot of information on a few mods that folks are trying out. Otherwise, try places like www.RonAyers.com and look at the fiche for OEM parts. I am unaware of any aftermarket versions other than the mods being designed/built/tested by owners.

Title: Re: Newbie, and tensioner headaches
Post by Max_Morley on 04/10/07 at 08:29:33

The job can easily be done inframe. unless you need to change the one guide that is held in place between the head and cylinder. Lots of information in the tech section and RSD on the issue and solutions. What we don't have is real answers to the cause and difference between bikes mileage between failure. Years ago on Bert's German forum, it only came up once and that was long distance commuter in San Diego that went about 90K miles before his came lose and noisy. Seems like the average now is in the mid 20K miles for an inspection at least. There is a unit made in Europe that allows the tensioner anchor to be moved that solves the looseness problem but not the resulting change in cam timing. Max

Title: Re: Newbie, and tensioner headaches
Post by KenGLong on 04/10/07 at 08:46:54

Max_Morley wrote:

What we don't have is real answers to the cause and difference between bikes mileage between failure. Years ago on Bert's German forum, it only came up once and that was long distance commuter in San Diego that went about 90K miles before his came lose and noisy. Seems like the average now is in the mid 20K miles for an inspection at least.

I wonder what changed? Lower quality cam chain maybe?

Ken

Title: Re: Newbie, and tensioner headaches
Post by justin_o_guy on 04/10/07 at 08:49:48

I am WANting to find someone with access to liquid nitrogen so I can freeze the crap outta this new cam chain for a few days &
then I intend to soak it in oil a day or so, so none of it will be dry at start.

Title: Re: Newbie, and tensioner headaches
Post by verslagen1 on 04/10/07 at 09:03:22

From what I see, half of the issues are caused by a combination of chain stretch, and/or guide problems. Not knowing the manufacturing history of these components will make it hard to pin point the problem.

Title: Re: Newbie, and tensioner headaches
Post by KenGLong on 04/10/07 at 09:11:42

justin_o_guy wrote:

liquid nitrogen

What will the freezing do?

Ken

Title: Re: Newbie, and tensioner headaches
Post by justin_o_guy on 04/10/07 at 09:13:48

Ther have been some experiments with cryogenics on engine blocks & pistons & other high stressed parts & it gave them a longer service life. I can't begin to splain how or why. Maybe it's another one for the Mythbusters??

Title: Re: Newbie, and tensioner headaches
Post by Savage_Rob on 04/10/07 at 09:49:33

I would assume that it might slightly increase the molecular density.

Title: Re: Newbie, and tensioner headaches
Post by K1200LTryder on 04/10/07 at 10:07:19

Interseting comments, I guess the problem cannot be solved just by replacing the tensioner.

How much is this fix going to cost ??? :o

Title: Re: Newbie, and tensioner headaches
Post by Savage_Rob on 04/10/07 at 10:11:31

K1200LTryder wrote:

Interseting comments, I guess the problem cannot be solved just by replacing the tensioner.

How much is this fix going to cost ??? :o

The mods are various workarounds and are not currently readily available here. I've tried corresponding with the designer of the German mod about purchasing one from him and he is not responding to my emails. So far as replacing parts, you'll have to crack yours open and assess what needs to be replaced and then look at someplace like RonAyers.com to price those parts. This assumes you'll be doing your own work.

Title: Re: Newbie, and tensioner headaches
Post by K1200LTryder on 04/10/07 at 11:35:49

Yes Rob, I'll be doing the work myself.

I figure if I can handle all the maintainence on the BMW and CBX, this little gem should be a treat to work on.

I'm getting the factory shop manual for it tomorrow, and that should be a great help. ( plus willing to share any info from it here also).

Title: Re: Newbie, and tensioner headaches
Post by verslagen1 on 04/10/07 at 11:38:37

Chain $70
Gaskets $20
Tensioner $40
The grin on your face when you're done - priceless.

(round numbers estimates)

German kit $200
Machining/Welding to avoid buying German kit - 6 pack of beer.
Doing it my way and it actualy works - priceless x 10 ;D

Title: Re: Newbie, and tensioner headaches
Post by K1200LTryder on 04/10/07 at 11:44:37

That aint to bad there verslagen....interested on what "your way" is ???

Title: Re: Newbie, and tensioner headaches
Post by Savage_Rob on 04/10/07 at 12:46:11

K1200LTryder wrote:

I figure if I can handle all the maintainence on the BMW and CBX, this little gem should be a treat to work on.

No doubt about that. That's one of the things I find most attractive about this bike. I had to add the qualifier though. This site really has a wide range of abilities and experience and sometimes folks want to know what something would cost including labor. Personally, I don't have a lot of experience wrenching but I do have a little. I'm not afraid of tools and can read shop manual. Sometimes that means I bite off more than I can chew but hopefully not often. I have less than 9K miles on mine, so I haven't made a point of opening it up yet. I plan to replace my clutch springs sometime this spring/summer and will assess the cam chain components at that time.

Title: Re: Newbie, and tensioner headaches
Post by Kropatchek on 04/11/07 at 06:59:27

K1200LTryder wrote:

Interseting comments, I guess the problem cannot be solved just by replacing the tensioner.

Replacing the tensioner only will NOT solve the problem.

Title: Re: Newbie, and tensioner headaches
Post by Kropatchek on 04/11/07 at 07:00:59

verslagen1 wrote:

You did not include the rear-guide and if the tensionerpiston did not leave the body it can be re-used.

Title: Re: Newbie, and tensioner headaches
Post by justin_o_guy on 04/11/07 at 07:21:27

I may get disappointed, but I am hoping to reuse the guides on the first cam chain replacement. I am also hoping to get more miles out of the second one. I may even just remove the tensioner & tweak the rear guide & reinstall the tensioner, depending on the measurement on the chain. I can always stick the chain in later. OOOps,, Rethink That! I have a cam coming & have to ship the core back, so I spose the chain will be gettin replaced, not gonna stick a 90% WO_ Out one back in,

Title: Re: Newbie, and tensioner headaches
Post by K1200LTryder on 04/11/07 at 08:02:33

I'm thinking the rear tensioner/guide is the main culprit when it comes to wearing out. Can this be changed without removing the cylinder head ?

Title: Re: Newbie, and tensioner headaches
Post by Kropatchek on 04/11/07 at 08:56:57

K1200LTryder wrote:

I'm thinking the rear tensioner/guide is the main culprit when it comes to wearing out. Can this be changed without removing the cylinder head ?

Yes, only the headCOVER comes off.
That's the part that houses the (valve) rockers and the decompressure mechanismus.

Title: Re: Newbie, and tensioner headaches
Post by verslagen1 on 04/11/07 at 09:00:40

Yes you can replace the guide w/o removing the head, but you do have to remove the head cover.

At 20k miles, my chain is .02 over stock. So I have another 50k to go before I should need to replace the chain. However, the tensioner is ready to fall out.

I'm going to measure the nuts out of that rear guide before it goes back together. Any body have a new one to compare? Make a xerrox copy and send it to me.

As far as these guides wearing out... I don't think they do (unless they far apart, alas poor grim) I think they loose their shape. I think they flop about enough to expedite tensioner demise. :'(

I'm thinking about 2 or 3 ways to fix this. I've discussed this elsewhere, so either search or wait. I haven't riden since sunday so I'm getting testy. :o

Title: Re: Newbie, and tensioner headaches
Post by K1200LTryder on 04/11/07 at 11:32:42

Well, the bike has 17,000 miles on it, and has never had the clutch cover off, but it has lost power and the chain is very noisy.

I will be opening it up on sunday and will post a full report.

From what I have been gathering here, the chain itself stretches very little over time and mileage, BUT, the rear tensioner guide seems to 'straighten out' at a premature rate. The guide straightens so much that it exceeds the limit of the tension plunger, and verges on catastrophic failure.

On a post on about the sixth page (sorry, I forget the posters name), somebody compared a new guide to an old one, saw the difference, and bent a 'bow' back into the guide.

His bike now works FINE !

If this is the case with my bike, not only will I reform the rear guide, I will also reinforce it so it will not lose shape...( put a backbone on it with a mig welder)

It just might be a simple and cost effective solution to an inherent design flaw.

Thanks for all the input, this forum not only provides answers, it inspires ideas.

Title: Re: Newbie, and tensioner headaches
Post by K1200LTryder on 04/11/07 at 11:56:10

....Aeres......chain guide guru !

Title: Re: Newbie, and tensioner headaches
Post by verslagen1 on 04/11/07 at 12:15:22

I agree the guide might need reshaping, but it is encased in plastic and welding on it will change that. Also, it might be of spring steel and welding on it will lose its temper(stiffness).

Oh, Aeres, great chain guide guru! speak to us! give us wisdom! Wat up How's the bike holding up. ;D