|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1217369995 Message started by shadowman on 07/29/08 at 15:19:55 |
|
Title: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by shadowman on 07/29/08 at 15:19:55 Starting from zero, sure, but sometimes when I have hit terminal velocity I find myself easing off the throttle and nudging it from 4th to 5th w/o using the clutch. Don't hear or feel any serious protestations. I have heard that this is a technique used in racing. Can anyone say -- with any authority -- that this is either OK or a really bad idea? Thanks |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by mick on 07/29/08 at 15:37:58 I don't think it's a good idea,I know there are some here who disagree. Guys that race still use the clutch but hardly any change in throttle,they did in my day anyway,who knows they might use a different tecnique now days,heck ! when I started watching racers in the Isle of Man they didn't stick there knee out ether,the bikes then had a very low center of gravity. |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by Gort on 07/29/08 at 16:44:44 Why teach yourself this bad habit and take the chance of blowing the trans by not using the clutch? Yes maybe with practice you can shift without it, but what happens if you aren't paying attention to your trick shifting and end up busting the trans...is it worth it? I had a '52 Harley Hummer when I was a teen and used to trick shift without the clutch, until the day I had to quickly act to avoid a collision. Too frantic to worry about feeling the gears and listening to the RPMs, I shifted out of habit without the clutch and blew the trans, which in turn busted the crankshaft. Bike was junk, and all because I was so used to shifting without the clutch. http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk80/tlukatch/HUMMER.jpg |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by verslagen1 on 07/29/08 at 17:15:43 Dad once thought (beer in hand) about getting an industrial electric clutch ;D |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by Paladin. on 07/29/08 at 17:48:11 http://www.f6rider.com/VRCC/tech/trans.htm Clutchless shifting does no harm, is easier and faster. |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by Gort on 07/29/08 at 18:50:45 586964696C6166080 wrote:
WHAT?!!! The link you provided explains the need to control RPMs during clutch-less shifting, exactly as I have done driving 10 speed Peterbilts without the clutch for the last 10 years. Clutch-less shifting of a bike without paying attention to rpms will grind at least, and, in a panic situation, if you force it in you may damage the trans. This is a bad habit to get into on a motorcycle where your attention should be elsewhere for safety reasons. You shouldn't be listening to the rpms and paying attention to when to slide the gear in. You should pay as much attention as possible to the road. Where is the wisdom in learning to trick shift at the possible expense of your gearbox, or in re-focusing your attention from the road for such an inane reason? |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by Jay on 07/29/08 at 19:00:37 "Can do" vs "should do". Two very different things. Which one you pick can be determined by the size of your check book, and as Gort pointed out at the possible expense of your personal safety. The clutch is there for a reason, same as the brake. Use it. |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by YonuhAdisi on 07/29/08 at 19:09:35 605355495453210 wrote:
WHAT?!!! The link you provided explains the need to control RPMs during clutch-less shifting, exactly as I have done driving 10 speed Peterbilts without the clutch for the last 10 years. Clutch-less shifting of a bike without paying attention to rpms will grind at least, and, in a panic situation, if you force it in you may damage the trans. This is a bad habit to get into on a motorcycle where your attention should be elsewhere for safety reasons. You shouldn't be listening to the rpms and paying attention to when to slide the gear in. You should pay as much attention as possible to the road. Where is the wisdom in learning to trick shift at the possible expense of your gearbox, or in re-focusing your attention from the road for such an inane reason?[/quote] I will give you the reason to learn how to "trick shift" Clutch failure. If you know how to speed shift, you can still make it home without having to call someone. I myself have had to do this very thing a few months ago. |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by T Mack 1 on 07/29/08 at 19:23:07 5D6B6A716C45606D776D040 wrote:
The Jedi master has spoken. A very valid point. We should know how. But, I also agree with Gort, using the clutch should be instinct. The trick shifting should be sometime you need to think about to do when you break down. |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by Paladin. on 07/29/08 at 19:40:49 211214081512600 wrote:
This is not "trick" shifting. Pay attention to RPMs? It's subconscious, as is the cordination between the off-on throttle and toe pressure. No more attention is needed for clutchless shifting than clutched shifting -- probably less as you don't need to coordinate both hands. You don't need to listen to the revs as you don't need to match speed as in a crash box or synchromesh transmission -- just deload and slip between gears. Clutchless shifting allows more attention to be paid to the road. At least for me. Your experience is different than mine. I started shifting clutchless in '64 when I learned what a constant mesh transmission was and how it worked. Haven't killed any bikes yet. |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by Gort on 07/29/08 at 19:57:17 621B7B57555D07360 wrote:
The Jedi master has spoken. A very valid point. We should know how. But, I also agree with Gort, using the clutch should be instinct. The trick shifting should be sometime you need to think about to do when you break down.[/quote] The reason I made my posts was because Newbies frequent this site; they ask questions; and thank members for their advice and counsel. If a Newbie gets the idea that this site feels that clutch-less shifting, "does no harm, is easier and faster", then they might try it. Shifting without a clutch takes practice and if for whatever reason, you are one of those riders who just can't get it right, then you may well damage your trans in the attempt. And for what? Its not right to allow a trusting Newbie to think its "easy" to do this, only to have the person damage his trans., especially if it locks up and sends him flying. As for learning it so you can get home due to a clutch failure, why? Why distract yourself from focusing on the road and why gamble that you hear the rpms right (no tach) shifting a trans that was designed to be used with a clutch? I wouldn't roll the dice with a trans that was never designed to shift clutch-less, just for reasons of convenience. |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/29/08 at 20:06:57 A quick roll off & toe up at the same time is an upshift. I can downshift by goosing it or letting off, both work. For 2nd to first or first to second is just too bhig an RPM jump to not lurch things around, so I wont do that one anymore. Ive done it successfully several times, but its just too hard to be better than using the clutch. 3rd,4th & 5th are easy & very quick. Just get the toe under the shifter, apply light pressure, not enough to shift yet, then slam the throttle shut as quick as you can & lift at the same time. After you get good at that, practice shifting with less aggressive throttle closing, eventually, you can shift just barely rolling off. Downshifting is easy, step lightly on the shifter & roll off the throttle, step on it as you roll off, eventually it gets real easy. ( the above is for cruising riding) For Hot rodding, I step down & give it a goose at the same time, then close the throttle down & do it again. |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by mornhm on 07/30/08 at 05:28:19 One thing to consider with clutchless shifting, it takes time for a MC to catch up with your intention to match rpms. This is not a good thing if you need to shift "right now." I agree it's a good thing to know how to do. However, it's not a good practice on a daily basis. The reason for the clutch is to put the wear/stress on a part that is designed to slide/slip. Gears are designed to mesh or engage, not slip. Think about what happens when you shift gears, the ratio in the transmission changes, therefore your rpm or speed has to change right at the moment of shifting. Physics (inertia of the machine) will tell you this isn't possible. So the change to match is either done by "klunking" the transmission into gear and matching the rpm to speed or slipping the clutch again matching the rpm to speed. Which do you think is better for the gears. Which do you think the manufacturere had in mind when they made multiple gear transmissions. Yes you can minimize the klunk, but you can't eliminate it because you are changing ratios. |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/30/08 at 06:32:58 I can shift "Right Now" nearly anytime, clutchless. Or, I may grab the clutch, But, toe, throttle, clutch grabbing, all should be natural, no thinking. Unless & until it is, use the clutch.Then, once that is mastered, IF you think you can do it without needing a dustpan, give it a shot. I hadnt read this site when I did it, but I used to drive big trucks in the oilfield. I had a busted clutch linkeage & I got home. I had a busted throttle return spring, & I got it home. Bought a screen door spring off a hamburger joints door in West Tx., cut some wire out of a f3nce & fixed 'er up..Ya gotta be able to get by, & knowing how to shift w/o a clutch can be evry handy. |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by Paladin. on 07/30/08 at 06:34:07 41435E4244412C0 wrote:
If you need to shift "right now" clutchless is much faster: http://paladin.savageriders.com/Shifting.jpgclick for movie (http://paladin.savageriders.com/Shifting.MOV) At 2 seconds in I do the 1-2 shift with clutch, rather slow. At 5 seconds I do the 2-3 shift, then the 3-4 shift at the 7 second mark and throttle back to cruise. Using the clutch I take nearly a quarter second, clutchless is under a tenth of a second. |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by shadowman on 07/30/08 at 07:24:38 Wow, just when you think that every possible raw nerve has been probed. Let me stipulate that the clutch is there for a purpose and probably should be used all the time. But 4th and 5th are close together and a couple of times I inadvertently put a little pressure on the shifter and it very smoothly went into 5th, so that got me experimenting a little and thinking just a little, leading me to get lazy. Based on what I read above, I conclude that clutchless shifting might not do (the bike) much harm if performed carefully, but certainly doesn't do the bike any good. But I agree with the comments that suggest that it is not a good idea to float ideas that encourage riders -- especially new riders, myself included -- to start getting too cute. Think I'll go by the book until my experience gets farther ahead of my confidence. |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by 07S40rider on 07/30/08 at 07:40:22 6F647C69753434050 wrote:
I could not agree more with this. When I was a young'en and racing dirt bikes - shifting without the clutch was very common, especially when coming out of the gate. Sure, it 'can' be done, but there really is no reason to do it on a normal basis on my street cruiser - for me anyway. Sure, if the clutch goes out you will have to shift without it to get your bike home, but that is not something that should be practiced in my opinion. |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/30/08 at 07:47:06 Theres a clutch on every standard transmission. 18 wheelers rarely use a clutch, shifting up or down. Once a person understabds whats actually happening inside the tranny & how RPM "Lines up" or Synchronizes the gears, then slipping it into & out of gears without the clutch stops being " Bad JuJu" & starts looking like a quicker, slicker, actually less wear approach to shifting. No cable wear, since the clutch isnt asked to disengage & reengage, thers no clutch wear.The pivot in the side cover ( which has broken for a few of us) isnt stressed. One of the guys explained his method & I went & tried it & it CAN be done in a very vrelaxed manner. I had been doing it as quickly as possible, violemntly slamming the throttle closed & grabbing a gear & cranking wide open immediately, but ( Paladin? I think it was him) someone said they gently rolled out & snicked it up a gear, & LO & Behold,, it works & its so easy, so slick, I can have my left hand on my leg( IF I wanted to) & shift up & down, from 2nd, to 5th & thwen down to neutral, with just a hand on the throttle. I CAN put it in first, but that would take 2 hands,cuz it can jerk it a bit,, HMMM, Ive never gone 2nd, neutral then 1st,,,, always 2nd to 1st & thats a Big Jump in RPM,,, I betchya thatll work, let the thing idle down & then drop in 1st, with a little throttle blip...COOLman,, I think I learned something here.. |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/30/08 at 07:56:21 But I agree with the comments that suggest that it is not a good idea to float ideas that encourage riders -- especially new riders, myself included -- to start getting too cute. I am not about to limit what I say for fear someone will be silly enough to go do something they arent qualified to try. We are all adults & know our own abilities & level of understanding & experience. Maybe someone wants to create a Kiddy section for those who havent the intelligence to know their own level of expertise? But, people who need to be protected from ideas they arent ready for really have no business on 2 wheels in the first place. I know I have seen posts here where people were into the deepest darkest recesses of the engine & I knew I wasnt ready to go there, but was excited to think about the day I would be. I didnt need to not look at the post, in order to protect myself from some overwhelming desire to "Go do it". I think people need to read the posts & mull them over, consider the "How To" part & start playing with it. One day, that "Newbie" will roll off the throttle & lift the toe & be running in a higher gear, no clunking, no grinding, no jerking around & less of a Newbie. |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by Paladin. on 07/30/08 at 08:47:10 And there is also natural talent. One person might never get the hang of it, while another finds it to be the most natural thing in the world. Just beause you cannot do something does not mean that no one can do it. Just because you can do something does not mean everyone can do it. Shadowman, in the initial message in this thread, noticed that he was doing it and was wondering if it would harm the motrocycle -- so it is not a matter of suggesting someone should try something. As for harm, I did it to my DT175 for 14 years with no problems; have done it to Thumper for 20,000 miles, no problem. |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by wrenchbender on 07/30/08 at 10:02:50 'Be One with The Machine' Don't tell my mechanic this, but the Dana on the Detroit gets the clutchless treatment most often from me, cause a transmission rebuild is cheaper than joint replacement. IMHO On the Boulevard most upshifting is without and down is sometimes accompanied with just a smigeon on the left lever. So if I'm not grinding gears and giving it high revs...why should I use more than a smigeon? |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by sharp21 on 07/30/08 at 14:44:02 If you blip the throttle properly there is no problem S. |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by Onederer on 08/01/08 at 04:23:50 Hmmmm, why in the world has'nt anyone mentioned big trucks rarely turn over 2,000 rpm? Da Ya thunk maybe thats why they can be shifted easily without a clutch? Or how about most have a 500 rpm split? I duno, but maybe there is a reason anything that runs above a idle has a clutch. If everything racers do is ok for street machines, then how come we're not all driveing rail jobs to work? If ya think shifting without a clutch is faster or just plain don't wana then you should be riding one of thesehttp://w1.bikepics.com/pics/2004/06/07/bikepics-161966-320.jpg Its your bike do what the heck ya wana, your paying for it. |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by Trippah on 08/01/08 at 05:55:40 Shifting up gears, especially 3 to 4, and most truely 4 to 5 can be done clutvchless -easily with the gentle slip it home method. I do NOT think downshifting clutchless is at all a good idea, much to much wear and tear. Happy motoring. |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by sluggo on 08/01/08 at 07:56:03 lets see 98,000 miles on my gn 400 one clutch replacement,. clutchless shifting does not harm. i know of no one who has "blown" a tranny on a bike by clutchless shifting. now they may have blown a tranny but were not talking about eddie murphy here. 8-) |
|
Title: Re: Is the clutch really ncessary all the time?? Post by Roadie on 08/02/08 at 01:00:59 I'll stick with using a clutch. I'm sure what ya'll do works. I'll just consider the clutch a maintenance part and replace it when it goes. Thanks, Roadie |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |