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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Pilot jets /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1225151892 Message started by 88pagan on 10/27/08 at 16:58:12 |
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Title: Pilot jets Post by 88pagan on 10/27/08 at 16:58:12 Ok well I don't even want to ask this cause I feel stupid but here goes. I have the main and needle spacer where they seem just right. Still can't get it to lean anymore at idle so I was about to get a #50 pilot for it until I realized there are two pilots. Can someone tell me the different function of the two and was I about to change the correct one to lean it down at idle? Thanks gentleman |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by 88pagan on 10/27/08 at 17:00:31 Oh also figured I should ask, should I be looking at the float or anything else to determine why it's so rich at idle? The carb is spotless inside and working real well...except for starting the bike and taking off from a stop. |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by serowbot on 10/27/08 at 19:40:01 Hey 88, I just PM'd you before I found this post. There is only one pilot jet, and one main...both side by side in the float bowl. You may be thinking of the idle mix screw as a pilot jet. It's not a jet,...no hole in it,...more like a finger that you adjust in or out, to vary the amount of flow through a fuel passage. |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by 88pagan on 10/27/08 at 19:56:54 Ya that's what I thought. One of the couple shops I called kept asking me "which pilot jet" are you looking for..thought there was only one main and one pilot. There is a part on the schematic at the top of the carb that says pilot jet also..maybe that's the screw you guys speak of? Well for some reason the completely stock bike I bought has a 52.5 pilot so I'm hoping a 50 will set me straight. Then maybe I'll figure out if I should add a spacer or two back on the needle and drop the 152 main to 150. I just wanna ride!! I can't find the model # on our carb..anyone know an easy way for me to order the jet without dealing with these shops? |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by verslagen1 on 10/27/08 at 19:58:47 http://w3.bikepics.com/pics/2007%5C10%5C08%5Cbikepics-1049830-full.jpg |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by 88pagan on 10/27/08 at 20:04:41 Yep Verslagen that's what I thought. Ok screw the guys at the shop, I'll find another (less frustrating) way to get the correct pilot. For some reason this supposedly completely stock 96 came to me with a 52.5 pilot instead of the stock 47.5. Soooo anyone have a 50 or the whereabouts for me? |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by serowbot on 10/27/08 at 20:08:09 Ahhh!...that jet up top is an air inlet jet. No fuel goes through that one. It lets air go in to the top of the slide diaphragm so that the engine vacuum can pull the slide down. You don't need to worry about that one unless it gets clogged up. Carbs are complicated boogers.... Our carbs are Mikuni BS40SS...the SS may just stand for Suzuki Savage, not sure. |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by 88pagan on 10/27/08 at 20:11:08 http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a304/88sandman/carb.gifSo obviously I need part 18 but the guy at the shop kept saying I needed 42. Doesn't really matter what he thinks cause they don't stock them anyway. |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by 88pagan on 10/27/08 at 20:12:57 Ok cool thanks boss. I'll do a search for a pilot for that model # and see what I find..unless Lancer get's back online and says he has one to sell me |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by serowbot on 10/27/08 at 20:13:39 Bingo!,.. 42 is the air jet,...18 is the pilot jet you want. Tell the guy at the shop he's a twit!... Na,... better not...he'll overcharge you.... |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by 88pagan on 10/27/08 at 20:21:04 I can't seem to find a site selling pilots designated for that carb. I'm assuming that a Mikuni pilot jet isn't just going to fit all models right....that would be too easy. |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by serowbot on 10/27/08 at 20:25:46 I think it is that easy.... Mikuni's pilot's are all the same fit, just want a #50. Some have little side pinholes, some don't but that's not important. I'm not 100% on that info,..but I think so. Float needles on the other hand are a turd. WAIT! SORRY, I THINK I'M WRONG!... I'll do some searching... |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by serowbot on 10/27/08 at 20:35:21 I think this is it. Wish Lancer could confirm. Anybody? I normally take my old one out to the shop and do a eyeball match. http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/tpl/product.jsp?store=Main&catId=111&leafCatId=11101&skuId=176050&productId=p176030&mmyId= |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by 88pagan on 10/27/08 at 20:52:48 I think you're right. The several I've found online look exactly like that. Besides, they'd have to specify model #'s if it were really specific to each one. Ok gonna order, need to start riding again |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by serowbot on 10/27/08 at 20:55:15 Well good luck,..hope we're right. I went out to the shed and dug up my old one, but the only markings on it are size. #52.5....no help.. |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by Yonuh Adisi on 10/27/08 at 21:42:10 0B0B40525D575E525D330 wrote:
I do believe a 52.5 pilot is a stock pilot jet, I have gone through four carbs (looking for one that would work) and every one of them had a 52.5 pilot jet. |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by serowbot on 10/27/08 at 21:58:02 My info is #52.5 stock US. #47.5 stock for CA models, and for some reason 80's models US... |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by 88pagan on 10/28/08 at 10:32:40 Thanks for all your help guys. Lancer I found the jet off the part #'s you gave me. Heading to Chaparral Motorsports on my lunch today, anyone need anything? Haha that place is awesome! Hopefully that pilot jet will get me where I need to be to stop working on it and start riding it! I'll update later |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by 88pagan on 10/28/08 at 17:34:34 Alright another bummer. Managed to find a 50 pilot jet locally, picked it up, just got home from work and threw it in. Started up perfectly, I started messing with the air/fuel screw, and before I even got anywhere it died. Pulled the filter and it started right up. Checked the plug and it's very fouled. Soooo I guess I need the 47.5 pilot. Unfortunately nobody around carries it so I'll have to order it online. OR, I might go back to Chaparral and pickup the 45 they had..mess with that and maybe file the holes open a little if I have to. Why the hell am I running so rich at idle! I just pulled the carb out and completely apart looking for anything wrong, it looks perfect. Jeeez |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by serowbot on 10/28/08 at 19:27:45 88, I'm really thinking it's something other than jetting... You're gonna' want to kick me for saying it, but double check that vacuum line for the presence of any gas...disconnect it at the carb and give it a little suck (no, really),... sometimes they might not leak until vacuum is applied. Switching to prime has been rumored to work around this problem,...but it will not. The leak will still happen. To work around a vac line leak, you have to pull the vac line, cap both ends, then run on prime. That will bypass the system. Try that if want. Or have you done the petc0ck conversion already? I can't remember. If that's definitely O.K. then check that your float needle is seating properly and the float level is correct. Next you need to make sure the needle and slide are moving smooth. You've got to be getting some gas running around the jet system. Best of luck, tell me how it checks out... PS...I know what you're going through...I just spent all day rebuilding two carbs on a v-star,.....twice!....Must have missed something on the first go round. |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by 88pagan on 10/28/08 at 19:39:25 If this site will keep up with us I just might get this fixed. So I've got the laptop in the garage, just finished quadruple checking the cleanliness of the carb and I saw your msg. Checked on the vacuum line and still it is perfect. Sucked on the end and the gas comes pouring from the petcock. I'm assuming that's correct, right? Now the floats is another thing. It wasn't off by much but I checked it with the calipers and it WAS off a few mm. I fixed that, went back to the 150 main while I'm in there, and adding a washer to the needle so I've got two instead of one. I picked up a 45 pilot jet so I'm gonna throw it in, reinstall the carb and see what happens. If it really was the floats out of whack I'm guessing I'll be putting the 50 back in. When I first started the bike with the 50 I had to put the air screw all the way in to get it to go. Let's see, computer is standing by |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by 88pagan on 10/28/08 at 19:41:19 Oh and I have NOT yet done the petcock mod since it seems to be fine. I'm assuming the po hasn't either. Maybe after all this I will. Almost picked up a raptor one while I was getting the pilot jet also..darn |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by serowbot on 10/28/08 at 19:51:37 "Sucked on the end and the gas comes pouring from the petcock. I'm assuming that's correct, right?" Wrong!!!!...That's the problem! That line should have absolutely no gas in it. To work around a vac line leak, you have to pull the vac line, cap both ends, then run on prime. That will bypass the system. This WILL fix the problem! You must cap off both the petc0ck and the carb. You can get little vac line caps at the auto store but they will rot away in a few months. You can also use little one inch pieces of line and jam a golf tee in them (ugly but works for testing). Once you're sure that fixes the problem, you'll need to either do the petc0ck mod or replace it. |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by 88pagan on 10/28/08 at 20:00:38 Sorry Serowbot I think I worded it wrong. Sorry I'm going between bike n computer. I sucked on the vacuum line and no gas comes from there, it's completely dry. Gas came from the open end of the petcock that feeds to the carb. That's right, right? |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by serowbot on 10/28/08 at 20:06:49 Darn it!...Yeah, that's right.... Not the problem...sorry. Got to be float level, float needle,...or sticky slide. Or...a new idea,. Are you sure you put the needle jet spacer in the correct position? Take a double look at the schematic view again. In the wrong place it could block the passage open a little and leak in extra gas. |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by 88pagan on 10/28/08 at 20:11:20 Haha ok well here's the deal. Bike is sitting right behind me running just fine. Messing with the air screw only makes it slow down if I come out anything from all the way in. darn I hope that makes sense the way I was thinking it. Also pulled the vac line off while it's running and sucked and nothing there. I think I'm gonna drop the rpms and go around the block a couple times |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by 88pagan on 10/28/08 at 20:16:11 Orrrr maybe I won't. Flooded again. |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by serowbot on 10/28/08 at 20:18:10 Hope it works,...still think it's compensating for a leak somewhere. Gotta' run for tonight, |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by Yonuh Adisi on 10/28/08 at 20:30:08 I had the same problem you are having Pagan, I still hadn't figured out what it was, but I went through three carbs and finally got a carb that works proper. Like I said, I still have no idea what was going on with it. My first carb was having the same exact problem, air/fuel mix turned all the way in and still running extremely rich, second carb had boogered pilot/air screw and I mangled it trying to get it out, third carb works perfectly. Once I get the money, I will be ordering Lancer's performance carb. |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by 88pagan on 10/28/08 at 20:33:38 I think I may be doing that too. It's been running for about 5 min's now with the screw all the way in. I'm hesitant to ride off cause I don't feel like pushing it home but guess I might as well try. Just seems odd that every single thing checks out and I'm running a #45 pilot now. Going to keep trying things I guess. |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by Yonuh Adisi on 10/28/08 at 20:39:25 I understand the frustration, everything checked out with my old carb as well and still had the flooding problem. I had even tried putting a new rubber o-ring under the pilot/air screw. |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by serowbot on 10/28/08 at 21:35:19 Just stopped in... Don't give up,...there's only so many parts in there, and if you keep thinking, and studying it, you've got to figure it out eventually... And you will know that carb upside down and inside out. If you break down on the road 2 years from now, you'll know the workings of that carb so well you can fix it on the spot, right on the side of the road. ...or 2 weeks from now you'll set that sucker on the back fence and blow it to kingdom come with a 12 gauge... You'll have a great story to tell though... |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by LANCER on 10/28/08 at 21:58:35 you have said several times that the carb is completely clean inside with no sign of any crud, but did you blow out all of the assorted passageways in the carb body? When rebuilding a stock carb I usually go through at least half if not a full can of carb cleaner in the process of making sure all of the passageways are completely clear and flowing well. I blow the cleaner through both ends of each passage several times, back and forth, checking and rechecking unobstructed flow. It is a pain, but when the carb goes back together I KNOW that I will not have any of those type of issues to deal with, and when I turn an adjustment screw the carb WILL respond properly to my adjustment. Also, did you in fact run the engine with the petcock in the PRIME position in order to eliminate that as a possible problem ? That is a common issue. I am working on a stock carb now and found a clogged passage that runs through a very tiny brass tube that sticks down into the float bowl. That passage runs up to the choke (enricher) but also is connected to the pilot system through a side passage within the carb body. After several unsuccessful attempts with the pressureized carb cleaner I finally found some super fine stainless wire in my wifes craft supplies that would fit into the super small hole and used that to penetrate the hard pack in the tube...worked on that one passage for over an hour. One less potential problem. |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by 88pagan on 10/28/08 at 22:22:24 Ya Lancer I did but just to be sure I'm going to pull the carb out again and give it yet another thorough cleaning. I just finished doing the petcock mod "just in case" something is going on there. The diaphragm felt real strong but I yanked it all anyways. It would probably need to be done soon anyways and now it's one less thing to wonder about. I'm gonna check in my truck cause I know I have some caps for the vacuum fittings in there but I guess it's a little late to keep starting this thing up. I'll check back in the morning to see if anyone has any ideas..otherwise I'll start it again, test ride it, and if need be I'll yank the carb and use as much carb cleaner as I can haha |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by 88pagan on 10/28/08 at 22:27:03 All the caps I had were over 3/8" so I'll head off to pick some up in the morning and get back to work on this thing. Thanks for all your input guys I'll be back tomorrow morning |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by serowbot on 10/29/08 at 10:35:26 Guitar strings are great for cleaning carb passages...Buy a set of .009 electric strings for $5.00 and you have a lifetime supply. .009,.011 will get in anywhere. Gauges: .009, .011, .016, .026, .036, .046. |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by 88pagan on 10/29/08 at 11:07:33 Here's the update. Did the petcock mod last night. Capped off the ports today, picked up a new plug just for kicks (also so I have a spare), and I pulled out the carb...again. Every passage is clear and it definately is good to go. One thing that I had been overlooking cause I thought it was normal was the appearance of the slide. It didn't seem to drag when I'd move it up and down but it had black over most of it, as if it was painted and parts of it rubbed off. Don't know if I should have done this but I took some real fine synthetic wool and some 600 grit wet/dry paper. Polished that baby up and also the inside of where the slide goes. It is smooth as silk now and I can feel it is actually moving much better. I have 2 washers on the needle, the 150 main jet from Lancers, and a 45 pilot jet. The idle is where I think it should be without a tach, and the air screw is about 1 turn out. I don't want to jump the gun but I think "something" out of all those things may have helped cause I just took about a 50 min ride all around the city and it appears to be working great. I'm going to do some more test runs and some of the tests Lancer told me to do, to make sure the main jet is where it should be. I hooooope it's actually good to go now. One thing, with the petcock mod, the inline filter I installed isn't staying full of fuel the whole time I'm riding now. It didn't seem to affect anything, I just remember that before it always stayed full of fuel. |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by Yonuh Adisi on 10/29/08 at 11:17:56 65652E3C3339303C335D0 wrote:
Okay, think about it Pagan, before the mod, your inline filter was always full of fuel and you were running so rich you were flooding out, now with the mod, you seem to be running good, and fuel filter not full of fuel. Now anybody please correct me if I am on the wrong track here. To me, that would suggest your petcock wasn't working correctly and was just dumping so much fuel it would fill the bowl and the line causing it to back up and keeping your fuel filter full. With the mod, you have corrected that situation. Now remember, that is just my thinking on it. |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by 88pagan on 10/29/08 at 11:21:34 I guess you're right. Although, before I broke a valve, the fuel filter was always full too. I'm not going to question it, if it keeps running now and doesn't run out of fuel or flood, I'm happy! Hmm, I wonder if that 45 pilot is going to turn out to be too small now. No backfire on the ride I just went on, no backfires or pops or anything upon shutdown...and I already noticed it's running MUCH cooler. Must have been running so hot from being overly rich |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by serowbot on 10/29/08 at 16:33:44 Nice work!...Congratulations... |
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Title: Re: Pilot jets Post by 88pagan on 10/29/08 at 16:38:07 Hey hey hey don't congratulate too soon! Might jinx me. Weather is calling for possibly a little bit of rain here this weekend so not sure how much more I'll get to mess with it. I'm hoping it's good to go but it kinda bothers me that now that it's finally running good, I can't get a difference in rpms messing with the air screw. I guess if it's running, and no backfiring, and running cool I should just leave it alone?? Air/fuel screw is feeling rough as though I'm messing it up playing with it so much. It only has about 2 turns of adjustment in it. Maybe I should pull it out, clean the threads and replace it? Or if it continues running well the next couple days I might just leave it alone |
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