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Message started by Jerry Eichenberger on 09/23/10 at 15:24:48

Title: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 09/23/10 at 15:24:48

A few months ago I suffered the wrath of several members of the forum for my stance on DUI. Basically, I believe that the national .08% limit is too low, and that the legislators caved in to MADD. The old .15% is far more realistic as a measure of too impaired to drive.

.08% is TWO drinks for a small person; the average 120 pound woman or small man.

I've had clients whose lives were changed for years by the .08% limit, including being unable to enter Canada, for instance, for 5 years after their conviction.

Today on Yahoo there's a story about texting and cell phone usage, and how the fatal accident rates have soared.

There is a lot of proof that a simple cell call while driving impairs a person as much as being at .08% blood alcohol.

Texting is far, far more impairing.

I wonder if we tell our kids and others that a texter, doing so while driving, ought to be arrested on sight, thrown into jail, and treated like a child molester by society. In every logical sense, a texter ought to be treated like someone who drives with a blood alcohol level around .18%.

Fire away, I'm hunkered down for the incoming.

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by Serowbot on 09/23/10 at 15:33:03

+1... ;)...

7D727E747F7279757265707265170 wrote:

Fire away, I'm hunkered down for the incoming.

Fire?... What fire?.... :-?...

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by Ed L. on 09/23/10 at 16:03:01

Got to agree about the .08 BAC being too low. Three or four beers in an hour will push it past the limit. On top of that even if you blow under a .08 the police can still arrest you if they decide that you are too impaired to drive. In other words just one drink could get you busted for a DUI if the cop was having a bad day. Texting while driving is just down right stupid and dangerous while talking on a cell phone is doable unless you are one of the multitude of people out there who can't walk and chew gum at the same time. Just my 2 cents on it.

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/23/10 at 16:29:45

If yer huntin an argument that the DUI laws are unreasonable, Im not ready to do it. As far as Im concerned, as long as someone doent cause or fail to avoiud an accident b/c of drinking, they have done nothing wrong. Then, SHOULD they cause a crash or, due to impairment, fail to avoid a simple little thing, then, then, let them feel the pain of the choice they made. Same is true for texting. Laws should be to control behavior, but to make people ACCountable FOR their choices.

We need accountability in DC, too.

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by mick on 09/23/10 at 19:59:31

Jerry,you think .08 is to low ? after I got my CDL (commercial drivers licence) that number goes to .00 ,that's right, zero. You have to be carefull you don't swallow any mouthwash with your morning gargle, arent Pilots subject to the same regulation ?
If and when I got 3 days off I could only have a drink on the first day,the other two were for drying out. Those were the days when a bottle of good Scotch whisky was norm for one night.
Why did something I love so much, treat me so bad. ?

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by Demin on 09/23/10 at 20:13:41

A CDL is .04 away from your truck.0 if you're in your truck. It takes about 1 hour per drink to get it out of your system.

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by mick on 09/23/10 at 20:21:15

7E7F7773741A0 wrote:

A CDL is .04 away from your truck.0 if you're in your truck. It takes about 1 hour per drink to get it out of your system.

By away from your truck you mean off duty,if you are on a lunch break,and you get in you truck and you blow a .01 you go to jail .
Completly off duty the .04 applies what is that a half a drink ?
you are quite right.

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by Demin on 09/23/10 at 20:25:53

Yeah,exactly.We as "professional" drivers(I use that term VERY loosley)are expected to be above the rest. There are some pretty losy truck drivers out there,but that's a whole other story.

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by mick on 09/23/10 at 20:36:48

37363E3A3D530 wrote:

Yeah,exactly.We as "professional" drivers(I use that term VERY loosley)are expected to be above the rest. There are some pretty losy truck drivers out there,but that's a whole other story.

You are right again, I quit along time ago but my CDL was valid until last year. I have seen some very bad truckers out there ,most of em are doing bennies, quite a few doing coke,three of us got pulled over in the first port of entry in Utah, I was the only one who passed the pee test. needless to say I drove on,one of the drivers was a gal,they looked ok ,so I guess it was a drug of some kind ,not booze.
I was a pumkin driver (Schnieder National)

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by Educatedredneck on 09/23/10 at 22:34:19

I'll raise you Jerry, I say .00 period. If your gonna drink - DON'T DRIVE.
Take a cab, get a ride, or have a designated driver or stay parked until your dang sure the alcohol is out of your system. You get to have your fun, and NO ONE gets hurt.

My two copper's worth.

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by PerrydaSavage on 09/24/10 at 00:42:55

Since this topic is about driving impairment caused by cel phone usage and texting, I'll weigh in ... yes, cel phone activity while behind the wheel is a MAJOR distraction and impairment to the driver ... and should have same penalties as alcohol impairment IMHO. Cel phone/texting is a ticketable (and point accumulative) offense here in Nfld. but I see cel phone use behind the wheel EVERY DAY, yet rarely hear of anyone getting busted for it? In fact, I have actually seen on a couple of occassions, even the police using cel phones behind the wheel!

As for the legal level of impairment when it comes to blood alcohol level ... well, I'm no doctor so I won't speculate as to what is, or isn't considered actual impairment. Driving while intoxicated is just plain wrong ... but I don't know if I could go so far as to agree that a "zero tolerance limit" is where the law should go (as it is in some European countries I believe).

I have been told (off the record) by folk I know in both the law enforcement and legal fields that most repeat DUI offenders and those involved in alcohol related accidents are chronic alcoholics ... where the legal BAL limit is set makes no diff as far as those folk are concerned ... if they have access to a vehicle, drivers license or no, they will often drive under the influence ... the average Joe/Jane Blow driving after consuming a drink or two over the course of an entire evening aren't the problem on our roadways ...

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by Toymaker on 09/24/10 at 02:16:18

well since I have ahd major closecalls because of cell phone/texting, I think the texters should be shot, quartered, shot again then stabbed with their freaking phones, then we should all go out and pound a few to celebrate. :)

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by photojoe on 09/24/10 at 04:42:40

One of my new favorite bumper stickers: "Handguns kill less people than drivers on cell phones."

I will not answer my phone while driving, even when it's work calling when I'm on the road. The caller will have to wait until I pull over and call back.

New fad here in the last year is people on bicycles doing the same thing. Texting with no hands on the handlebars, and talking on cell phones while riding against traffic. They're totally oblivious to their surroundings.

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 09/24/10 at 05:12:35

I'll try to respond to several posts.

First, as for flying, the limit is .04%, AND at least 8 hours since the last drink. Reasonable - landing a jet in the rain at night has almost no relationship to going 45 mph down a country road in broad daylight.

I know nothing about the limit for truckers.

But the big one is that those who cause accidents, who go up a freeway the wrong way, the chronic "drunk drivers" are just that - DRUNK. Meaning that they are typically near .20% or higher. These folks should be dealt with severely.

My issue is that .08% isn't drunk - yes, it may be a little impaired compared to nothing at all. But we allow one eyed people to drive, we allow paraplegics to drive in cars equipped with all hand controls, and an ever increasing problem - the truly elderly who can barely walk 10 yards or whose cognitive functions have severely declined all still drive. None of these folks is unimpaired; in fact, they are quite impaired compared with a normal, healthy person who has had no alcohol.

So, we don't have a zero tolerance policy, nor should we. I simply advocate returning the legal limit to around .15%, where is was for decades until MADD became so powerful. .15% is drunk.

But the business person, the guy or gal who just got off his/her shift at work, and all of the rest of us who stop on the way home for a couple of drinks should be left alone. .08% is not drunk, nor any more impaired than all of the other impaired drivers who legally drive everyday, and who cause accidents too.

As for zero tolerance, sorry - I'm not a tea totaler. But if you are, please don't drive when you have a common head cold and may feel a little groggy from your doze of Nyquil the night before - you're worse off than the guy who is at .08%.

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by mornhm - FSO on 09/24/10 at 06:02:09

my .02

Dealing with impaired drivers every day, I'm a fan of getting them off the road. In the past someone who was impaired during the day was a rare thing, and was usually either an alcoholic, messed up prescription drugs, or a diabetic. Friday nights was a different story then it was the drunks (alcohol abusers - binge drinkers - college students - birthday girls etc.) Now it is cell phone users. The laws are in place to deal with all of them. Most states have laws on the books for both drunken driving (easy to measure and prosecute). The laws for impaired driving are harder to enforce. Just like the person that says they can drive fine when they've only had a few beers (usually said standing rocking back in forth by the side of the road at the scene of an accident or after they've gotten a ticket) is difficult to convince that they shouldn't have been driving.
States are slowly beginning to put laws in place to combat cell phone usage and electronic usage. I agree that someone using their computer is bad, but so is using a cell phone. And if you think you aren't impaired, you need to have someone impartial observing your driving while answerring, talking, dialing iow using a cell phone in your vehicle and then listen to what they have to say. The only reason we haven't put laws in place universally is because not enough people have been killed, so not enough people are directly affected by cell phone users. I think it's coming, and faster than it did with drinking and driving. Mostly because more people do it, and because younger - less experienced drivers are doing it also. Finally, (imho) because it is more impairing that a couple of drinks, a slight side effect from a medicine, or waking up groggy.

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 09/24/10 at 06:11:43

Mornhm -

You say you are in favor of getting impaired drivers off of the road. My question is fairly simple - what is too impaired to drive?

You see, we're all impaired to some degree unless you're 25 years old, can pass an astronaut physical exam, and have been through intense driver training similar to Formula 1 or Nascar schools. I don't mean to be silly, but am serious.

I'm 63. I don't have the eyesight or reflexes I did at age 25. I'm stone cold sober this morning, not sick, I have full use of all of my extremeties, but I was slightly impaired on the way to work due to the natural decline that comes with age. I didn't talk on the cell phone, and in fact, I don't even listen to the radio while driving - driving is a sport to me, and I concentrate on it. Should I be off of the road?

Once we accept that some level of impairment is OK, where is the limit?

My only point is that .08% blood alcohol is too low to treat the offender like a child molester.

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/24/10 at 06:23:59

4748444E4548434F485F4A485F2D0 wrote:

I just cant wrap my mind around the apparent need of some folks to argue with what looks so reasonable to me, Jerry has made his point very clearly & has shown how the laws got changed & what that accomplished & the hypocrisy of it. Yet, the people have been taught for years what horrible people are that have a beer & then drive a car, when that same person will ;likely be sharing the road with people more Impaired, but completely legal.

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by weracerc on 09/24/10 at 06:35:24

I would agree with levels of impairment coming with levels of punishment......08 begins the process and comes with some form of penalty that does not end life as we know it but makes it difficult enough to remember that you dont want to make a habit of doing this (fines)....next stop .1 go to jail ...keep going up the scale and the time in jail and the fines get bigger....again at lets say .16 (double the current) loss of license along with jail and fines)...also 3 strike rule 3 at .08 jumps you to loss of license for a period say 3 years......i could go on and on with reasonable commen sense type approach to the problem but no one in the Government who makes the rules has any common sense they are all .20 on a good day and make all the rules we have to live with.......i'd also have to say that celling and texting while moving (operator of a vehicle) should be at least equal punishment as drinking/drugging while driving.......me too with the guy who does not answer while driving - why is it that we think we have to answer that freaking thing everytime it makes a noise......if i am doing anything i perceive as more important to my current situation then i dont answer the phone....funny how NCIS is more important than answering the phone quite regularly....and i dont know how to nor do i want to learn how to text.

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by mornhm - FSO on 09/24/10 at 09:21:24

JOG -

I wasn't trying to argue with Jerry, I was offering my opinion, which is what I thought Jerry wanted. I wasn't trying to say Jerry's opinion isn't valid, or that mine is more important. Just offering my .02.

Jerry -

I was taking impairment for this discussion to mean "rendered temporarily less effective; inebriated, drunk," not that one person is inherently a better (or worse) driver than someone else. Which to me means if you are aging but still an acceptable driver by law you are not an impaired driver. However, if you don't wear your glasses, take a depressant (there's a reason for the labels on those meds), talk on the cell phone, or type on your computer while driving, you are driving while impaired. Personally speaking, I know that the alcohol in one beer is enough to impair my physical abilities, please don't ask me to play a complicated piano piece after drinking, not so much my judgement. That doesn't make me a bad driver after one beer, just impaired. My opinion is that we don't need impaired drivers on the road. Some people are bad enough as it is, they don't need an impairment on top of that.

BTW I agree (pretty strongly) that people who drive impaired should be only punished according to the crime committed. Which often means (at least to me) they should just be prevented from driving until they are no longer impaired and punished enough to discourage them from doing it again. I don't know what the consequences are for a first time DUI is. I was told recently in Illinois it's more of a 3 strike thing, however, I was told the period for obtaining the 3rd strike (felony conviction) is forever. In other words, if a young man picked up a couple of DUIs and then 25 years later picked up a DUI for just over the legal limit it's felony.

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by weracerc on 09/24/10 at 09:42:03

my experience has 2nd hand thru my stepson - he had 2 DWI's (driving while impaired - NC terminology) within 90 days one included felony eluding (did not pull over immediately drove 2.5 miles from blue light to house to keep from having his car impouned, again) - the second time they searched the whole car and found pocket knife, misc paraphenalia so he had weapons charges on top of DWI....he is without a license for at least 5 years and has had to serve time at the county farm facility 10 weekends and is under probation...not to mention legal and court fees - i wonder when the light-bulb moment is going to happen for him? sooner than later you'd think he would figure out this behavior is going to take every penny he makes to pay for lawyers......His dad is an alcoholic and has had at least 3 DWI's in 45+ years of driving but somehow has managed to keep his license.....go figure?

I dont drink, period, or talk on cell phone if i can avoid it.

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by babyhog on 09/24/10 at 12:37:08

Speaking of DWI, we used to have DUI and DWI. DWI was a lesser offense with not as strict penalties, if I'm even remembering correctly. I can't remember the distinction between the two. I'm not sure if its even still part of our law, but thinking about it now, maybe some differentiation like that would be good. Minor DWI charge for the "professional" who stops after work for a couple beers with colleagues. DUI's and stronger penalties for habitual offenders... drunks.

Glad I'm not driving later tonight, because I can tell you I will be over the limit. A campfire isn't a campfire without beer. ;)

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by Demin on 09/24/10 at 13:01:28

Awww,just come to Ohio.After 4(I think)DUI's,you get custom license plates.SERIOUSLY.They are school bus tellow/orangeish with red numbers.

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 09/24/10 at 13:09:49

Demin -

A judge can order those "family restrcited plates" at any time, even after the first DUI. It's totally up to the judge.

Another ridiculous move - embarrassing everyone in the family who drives, as all cars registered to spouses and kids, or parents in the same household have to display them. That keeps the offender from driving a car registered to someone else in the household that otherwise would have regular plates.

Here in Ohio, the 3rd offense within 6 years is a felony, as is a 6th offense within 20 years. All could be .08%, or even lower.

In most states, it's an absolute offense to be above .08, but you can still be charged with DUI even if you blow below .08 if the cop wants to press it, and the jury later thinks you were under the influence.

Yep, that MADD is quite a group.

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by babyhog on 09/24/10 at 13:25:07

Wow, I never saw those plates. I used to be in Ohio lots, but not much the past few years. (Travelled to Toledo for business/pleasure)
And how long do they have to keep this vanity plate? Poor kid driving drunk-daddy's car. Wow.

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 09/24/10 at 13:37:34

Piglet -

You have to display what we call "party plates" for as long as the judge orders. For a first offense, it can be as long as one year after conviction. They've been around for quite a few years, at least 15; but more and more judges are ordering them of late. Remember, judges have to cow-tow to MADD.

For subsequent offenses, two years.

Those plates really stand out - you may as well park in the center of the freeway and hail down the cops. And don't forget, it may not be "drunk" daddy's car - being drunk is quite different than just DUI.

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by Demin on 09/24/10 at 13:47:52

I wasn't arguing the point.Everybody I've heard of has had numerous dui'sI was told after so many,you got the plates.My point was more of...after that many why would you not be in jail?
I will admit there used to be times that I was WELL over any limit,but I was lucky if you can call it that.
What gets me as a rider,regardless of what the"influence" is drugs,alcohol,phones.When somebody kills somebody it's a slap on the wrist

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by Wolfman on 09/24/10 at 15:26:04

The .08 is'nt about public safety, its about the public being a cash cow. The lower the limit the more folks they can nail and stick a nice big fine to. More money for the local and state coffers.
HeII, you can be setting in your own driveway after two beers listening to the raido and get a DUI without ever starting your vehicle. They call it Intent to Drive. All you got to do is have your keys in the ignition.

.08 is too low and they know it. Go back to at least .10 or .12
As for cell phones i feel if you cause an accident while on one you need to be hammered just as badly as if you were falling down drunk. Right now its a slap on the wrist.

On that note they were raiseing cain last night about a bike officer who had his picture taken while rideing down the road with his phone open and looking down at it. He claimed he was simply checking a call.
They made a big deal out of him looking down instead of at the highway. I had to think why dont they make a big deal out of tank mounted speedos to then?...lol

Its all about how much cash they can milk out of the citizens, nothing more nothing less. They thought they could get away with a .00 they would do it.
I also like the fact that so many law enforcement officers will let a fellow officer go on a speeding charge or if they have only had a 'couple of drinks.' I hate double standards.

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by mick on 09/24/10 at 23:01:46

Ok guys ,I have spilt more booze than most of you have drank.
I was a bartender for 20 years or so,for 10 of those years I never drunk a drop because I hade a 184 mile round trip commute ,I would have been stupid, When I worked close to home I would have two or three after getting off duty,this is after a 9 hour shift drinking about one an hour,people were always buying me drinks,no problem.
I did get a DUI a very long time ago we used to call it a 502 in those days ( remember that Paladin ?) in those days it was a $350 fine.thats it,I did get another one but by this time one of my best customers was the DA for the town I lived in (no names) he got me off ,I don't know how.
After watching thousands of drunks and drinkers ,my last place of employment most of my customers were Lawyers and stock brokers,I worked the day shift they mostly had two or three martini's, and this was during happy hour so every drink was a double. From that place I never had a customer who got a DUI or a wreck.
As I have gotten older (before I went on the wagon) I would never even consider going out with the intent of drinking and driving,
when you consider how cheap a taxi is by comparison.
Sorry for going on to much.

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/24/10 at 23:05:27

4A4855494F4A270 wrote:

Mmmmkay, I messed up,, Sorry, & thanks for the clarification.

Now back to regular chaos :o

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by mpescatori on 09/25/10 at 11:40:41

023A393338343B550 wrote:

The Italian... no, the EUROPEAN limit is .05. Talk about being strict, in a Nation (culturally speaking... we've been mixing gals&shrapnel for the last 3000 years, LOL) where alcohol is part of your culture just as much as your Sunday roast or your early morning wheaties...
.05 is very little, it's a pint of beer (at 5.5% alcohol) or one glass (one glass ? gimme a break, guv!) of wine.

So, .05% literally means "thou shalt nominate thine evening chaffeur" :P

Now, let's talk "intention to":
If I look at a girl with beady eyes, is that intention for assault and indecent behavior? :-?
If I listen to sports on the car radio because my wife has her favorite soap on TV, hey, I have to have the keys in the ignition, else the radio won't work!
Intention to drive? In Europe, you can't take "intention" to court, unless it's an attempted crime stopped in the doing.

Nice argument, though.

;)

Title: Re: DUI, texting and cell phones
Post by Demin on 09/25/10 at 17:13:32

It's true though.I know a guy,we were in Denver at a truck stop.Went next door to the motel bar,had a few(or so)shot some pool,went back to our trucks.Mine was already running(back when you were aloud to idle for heat/cool)He jumped in started his and cops drug him out and arrested him(in the truck stop)Neither one of us had loads,so we weren't going anywhere,anytime soon.
Afterwards we were told,that it was a common practice for that truckstop.
And yes we were VERY legally drunk. ::)