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Message started by Oldfeller on 02/01/11 at 10:29:39

Title: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase ....
Post by Oldfeller on 02/01/11 at 10:29:39

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF000111.JPG

This was a pretty much totally trashed motor that was donated by Serenity for the Great Experiment -- the development of recovery methods for head death and the other results of low oil pressure.

As you can see, we are some valve covers and a rubber plug shy of starting the testing phase of the Great Experiment. We have a pair of list members who say they have these parts and they are looking through their boxes right now to locate the pesky little pieces. (no luck yet so far though)

So far the totally trashed motor has required expenditure for a used jug and piston, a used cam, a used starter motor and the missing valve covers and rubber plug. Everything else was repaired (the methods developed are in the Tech Section as "how to" threads, with the exception of the Inelegant Stick cam re-tensioning system which is a Rubber Side Down experiment in motion that will require years to prove it out properly).

The ability to REPAIR a trashed motor instead of scrapping and replacing it is of some value to list members (the head cam bearing fix alone is priceless as we have so many dead heads running around it hurts to think about it). Keep your idle speed up over 1,000 rpm at all times !!

As soon as we get ahold of the rubber plug and the valve covers, the unit completes assembly and once it is cured good the oil goes in and the starter based static testing begins.

Test planned:

1) Compression Test at starter speeds

2) First push through oil volume through the oiling system will be captured to see what sort of trash circulates in the oil passages when a rebuild is done. (curious, I am)

3) Oil pressure at the last head cam bearing will be measured at starter speeds.

4) some other stuff as the thoughts occur to me ....

Still needed: a used set of valve covers and a used rubber plug.

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by thumperclone on 02/01/11 at 16:06:37

a magnetic oil drain plug

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by Oldfeller on 02/01/11 at 16:29:05

Got a smaller thinner lighter rare earth magnet already on the oil filter -- iron filings trapping duty is already covered.

Have to trust the filter to stop all the sawdust though ....

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by drums1 on 02/01/11 at 17:58:39

What a unique colour you chose to paint the beast !

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by MotoBuddha on 02/01/11 at 18:01:04

Naw, that's just silver with the camera white balance not set for incandescent light.

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by Oldfeller on 02/01/11 at 21:08:30

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF000111.JPG

That is the original faded silver paint cleaned with brake parts cleaner (acetone) which got it clean but dulled it some. It isn't painted at all by me, no paint at all except as it was done on the assembly line.

This is the spare engine, the one you slide in place when you blow the good one up and have a major rebuild coming up because you got stupid.

It keeps the frame rolling while you fiddle around with the good pieces ....

Why? Was it supposed to be pretty?

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/02/11 at 08:28:52

Doesnt seem like a good investment of time to doll something up thats not yet proven. Sure would hurt to have all that labor tied up in a pile O junk. Even IF it proves to run as intended, the longevity is still in doubt, since it is an experiment in repair techniques. I think its appropriate to leave some things kinda on the ugly side. I know that when I find rust on the backhoe, I just scrape & treat with Ospho & throw some p[aint on it. Wrong shade of yellow? Who cares!? The doghouse isnt even all the same color, some is green, some is purple & theres more than one shade of purple, I dont care, as long as it doesnt rot, its the doghouse & theyre safe & warm. It IShowever under a tin roof, has an elevated floor, its insulated on all sides, regardless of how it looks, its the best doghouse Ive seen, outside of the Jim & Tammy Faye Baker fame. IOW, I cant allow my fear of someone elses possibly negative opinion of what I am working on to dictate to me how I do it. I am doin the living here, & Im not gonna let antyone tell me how to do that, unless of course,that someone can promise me that when its my time to die, theyre willing to do that part for me too. So far, no takers..
just talkers

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by MotoBuddha on 02/02/11 at 09:13:13

As long as we're talking oil related issues here, do you think there would be any advantages or disadvantages to a remote filter backing up the standard filter?

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by verslagen1 on 02/02/11 at 09:47:20

The disadvantage is the resultant drop in oil pressure.

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by Oldfeller on 02/02/11 at 09:49:38

Both Verslagen and I checked into the remote filtration idea very throughly. I actually went and built one and Verslagen went and found a really cunning filtration unit for an oil fired home furnace (filter the #2 fuel oil for particulates and lumps) that even I said I should have bought instead of building one (I built mine before Verslagen located the commercial unit).

However, no secondary oil filters are installed on any bike. Why?

No significant spare oil flow volume or spare/excess oil pressure exists on a Savage unless running just about wide full open.

Our bikes die from lack of oil pressure way down low towards idle speeds. Our head cam bearings die because people like them rumpy-rump idle speeds and think it sounds wicked to BAP BAP BAP a strong throttle hit just off those nice low idle speeds.

Hell, I think it sounds wicked -- but I know it is about the worst thing you can do to your bike's plain aluminum head bearings.

I've got a Frankie Jr. bike that is set up to rev and make power up high. That's my playtoy engine. This one is carefully sealed up to make as much oil pressure as possible in an old severely used engine.

And this one is a pretty old engine at 56,000 miles and two oil pressure related death incidences behind it. To get it to pull good compression and good oil pressure around idle will be feat enough for this boy.

And if it lasted a nice goodly long while, well now wouldn't that be some nice cold vanilla ice cream sitting on your bowl of cherry cobbler?

======================

It would be plumb miraculous if ALL the major repair methods being tested on this engine worked out as long life perfect on the very first try ....

1) Refitting the damaged cam journal bearings to very close clearance tolerances by flat sanding the head cover

2) Adding an oil pressure gage check point at the last bearing journal drop (the bearing journal that fails all the time)

3) Rebuilding and reusing the old head gasket

4) Reusing the old chain and guides

5) Inelegant Stick cam chain retensioning method (second life at $2 cost)

6) Identified and fixed oil system low pressure issues:

"Mismated oil pump gears" due to reversal of clutch drive gear
(moves out of engagement while running down the road).

"Rabbit hole pin" -- the little pin on the oil pump clutch gear falls
out during clutch work (and since it is behind the clutch basket did you even
know it was there before it fell out and went down the rabbit hole to the sump?)

7) Templates, materials and methods to correctly make your own clutch side cover gasket
(includes use of a plain Silicone Gasket since the stuff got good enough to do the job)

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by MotoBuddha on 02/02/11 at 10:33:21

If your experimentation confirms inadequate oil pressure at the last head cam bearing, what (besides keeping the idle above 1k rpm) do you imagine would be a proper solution?

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by Oldfeller on 02/02/11 at 11:13:37

Drill and tap a fitting into the top oil gallery that is contained inside the side cover (first location that is post oil filter) and run a separate oil line up to the oil pressure sensing port that I just added to the head so I could see just how low the pressure is at idle speeds. There is an existing boss and plug on the clutch side cover that would be a likely candidate for a source point just to the right of the 652cm3 marking on the base of the jug.

So I would tap post filter full pressure oil flow and supply it directly to the weakest bearing journal through a relatively "larger" more direct copper tubing supply line.

Remember, this problematical last head bearing journal location is after the pressure tap out for the crank shaft and piston spray oil flow, after the pressure tap out for the transmission oil flow, after all the convoluted long passages in the barrel and the head, and after the pressure tap out for the cam end bearing and the oil flow through the center of the cam itself (oils the tappets). It is sucking hind tit big-time.

It is at the tail end of everything and likely is getting just about nothing for oil pressure at idle speeds. But nobody has ever actually measured this yet to say this is a fact or not ....

(still waiting for them 2 cam covers and a rubber plug, guys)

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by RidgeRunner13 on 02/02/11 at 12:35:15

Back in the mid '80's I worked on a boat that had twin turboed chev 350's for power. The turbo system was built by some outfit in Kansas that apparently hadn't planned on them being used in a salt water boat.
One of the problems was with the turbo bearings. I solved it by plumbing a 30 psi electric fuel pump that drew oil from a fitting on the oil pan & pumped it through the turboes as long as you wanted it to. I wanted to put them on a timer but the owner just wanted a button to hold down.He would use them for about 2 minutes after engine shut down to keep oil circulating & it cured the bearing problem. 8-)

Point is, You could boost oil pressure with an electric pump that would run all the time, & even be used to create oil pressure before starting.
Wonder how much that would cut down on wear??? :)

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by T Mack 1 - FSO on 02/02/11 at 13:45:22

Oldfeller,
When you first go to turn it over, remove the spark plug (to reduce load) and then remove the head bolt that is in the head oil passage. Then when you crank the engine, make sure oil comes out the hole.

It will take a bunch of turns to get there. And, once it comes out, it may shoot a foot or two in the air. Oh, yea, wear safety glasses.

T Mack

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by verslagen1 on 02/02/11 at 21:58:55

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SUZUKI-SAVAGE-LS-650-CYLINDER-HEAD-BOLTS-VALVE-COVERS-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem20b5c802dfQQitemZ140488737503QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by Oldfeller on 02/03/11 at 03:49:12

Yeah, I think you're right -- nobody on the list apparently has any spares.

He also listed just the covers separately on a different Buy Me Now in his e-store so I did ... Bike Bandit will be sending me the rubber plug from California, so it will be a week or more for that to come in.

More later when the parts come in ...

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by verslagen1 on 02/03/11 at 09:00:22

I got a spare head, but I don't think it has covers with it.
Let me check tonight.

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by Oldfeller on 02/03/11 at 12:04:02

Nevermind, I've already bought the ebay parts. Already got a shipping notice from the dealer.

Thanks anyway !!

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by einheit13 on 02/03/11 at 21:01:43

Question...I have no idea how the thumper works...does anyone know or have a pic of how the oil flows?? I am wondering if the 650 is like an HD...low oil pressure up top is fine. On a gauge, you won't see more than 3lbs at idle. its oil flow that keeps it alive, not pressure. I know the older HD (sportsters, I don't have any love for any big twin past a knuckle head) twins had loose tolerances and the pump would blow oil 20 feet at speed. The 'oil bath' lube system relied more on flow than pressure. Could it be worth while to add restricters to the oil return ports or cut channels to keep the oil in certain areas longer??

On my hot rod XLs, because of the external pump, I extend the pressure relief valve out so I can tap 2 lines to feed the rocker boxes (mainly on ironheads) and also tap in external drains on the rocker boxes ( I restrict the factory ports with a pipe plug I drill a small hole in) so the oil will pool just a little around the exhaust valve guides. Gotta be precise with this because the valve guides don't use seals, they are just tall. And the XLs love to eat ex valve guides...its wear part!

Or does it work like the Brit twins of old and use a scavenge off the return side to lube the upper?? Below 1000rpms would lead to top end death in short order. I know that the new Triumphs use 2 oil pumps. The top end has its own pump!

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by Oldfeller on 02/04/11 at 09:03:27

http://images1.snapfish.com/347447863%7Ffp342%3Enu%3D323%3A%3E639%3E697%3EWSNRCG%3D32338747%3C74%3A4nu0mrj

We have a completely pressure unregulated oiling system. We go from little/no volume and pressure at idle to too much pressure and volume at very high rpms. Our system is a gear driven pump, one fuel jet limiter over the transmission gallery, with unlimited/unmetered flow going to the crank and to the head.

Once I put the head together and put oil in the engine I can answer some of these questions with the testing I am going to do.

This is a 56,000 mile engine, so it will represent what old motors get into by crankshaft seal wear, etc. This engine has died twice by oil starvation, so if there is a bug to be found -- it's got it.

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by Oldfeller on 02/09/11 at 10:17:21

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF00039.JPG

Run In Results:

A 1/2" 2hp 1,000 rpm industrial drill was attached to the alternator bolt through the cover hole and the drill was run in reverse to power the crank rotation during the oil fill and oil pressure run in.

The first glass full of oil up through the top cam bearing journal passageway was collected and found to contain tiny tiny tiny strands of a dark filmy material -- supposition is that it came off the walls of the oil passages as the oil ripped up through them. This stuff would just go on through the system and perhaps be stopped by the filter on the return trip (no real concern for this item).

Running the engine at normal idle speeds (1,000 rpm) took 27 seconds to fill the oil filter cavity and all the passages up with oil to the point oil exited the clear tubing to start to fill the glass. A normal tea glass took 14 seconds to fill 3/4 full of oil.

OIL VOLUME ACCEPTABLE as this amount of oil cannot possibly go out through the cam bearing gap clearances at the normal pressures commonly seen at idle speeds. Back pressure will develop at this volume.

Passage was then attached to the oil pressure gage and the motor was run again at 1,000 rpm. Oil pressure wavered between 2 and 3 PSI which is a commonly reported situation on our bikes at idle speeds.

Oil used was Rotella Syn 5w40 weight, so I do not think these numbers would totally go away with a hot engine, but they would likely be lessened somewhat as the oil viscosity would go down some when hot. The pressure would go down and the volume would increase a tad using full hot oil.

The big industrial drill was put away and the engine was run with the starter motor for the compression testing so as to match normal testing methods. Compression testing was of course approximate as the piston rings were not seated to the freshly honed bore yet and the valves were likely somewhat sticky due to a lack of running for several years now. Still, 150 PSI was seen -- within the book service specs but at the low side to be sure. This would likely improve with motor run in, but it is good enough to consider the old motor serviceable.

I was struck by the amount of "huff" volume created by the big piston at 1,000 rpm as observed through the rotor timing hole. It is no wonder to me that we get oil in the airbox as the huff was moving oil in a fine spray about 2-3 feet. I am also wondering how much of the available power is consumed just pumping air back and forth inside the engine ....

================================

Engine will be stored with oil in it as it is not leaking any (interesting to see if this remains true over the years of storage that this engine may well see). All open intake and exhaust holes are blocked off with duct tape to keep the insects out. Engine will be stored at TDC on the compression stroke to keep tension off the valve springs and keep everything sealed up well with the valves. Intake and exhaust valves are sprayed with oil before sealing, spark plug threads lubed with never seize and for the life of me I can't think of anything else to do to it to aid in the storage other than wrapping the whole engine up well in a big plastic bag and storing it on a piece of plywood to keep the aluminum from contacting the concrete in the garage.

It's done folks .....

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by babyhog on 02/09/11 at 11:28:05

Why you not take-a no vidideo?

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by Oldfeller on 02/09/11 at 12:17:20

Babyhog,

A 2 hp 1,000 rpm industrial drill is used to stir 5 gallon buckets of drywall mud at the same time with a mixing paddle.

It can drill a 2" diameter hole in steel with a normal bit, 12"diameter hole with a steel cutting hole saw bit.

It can run a 8" screw feed wood boring bit straight down through a 5x2x12 floor joist (to put in a plumbing main line run)

You can buy an accessory for the unit that is a 3 people cable lift hoist, powered by the drill unit itself.

It comes stock with a 14" long 3/4" pipe threaded rubber gripped handle which offsets the 12" long main switch handle. It has a warning label that says

"Kickback torque from a bit jamming in the hole can cause damage to arms and wrists. Use one of the 3 mounting holes to put a longer blocker 3/4" pipe to prevent counter rotation of your body parts."

::)

hmmmm ..... maybe both my hands were right busy and I didn't have a helmet mount for my video camera?

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by engineer on 02/09/11 at 18:36:09

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by Oldfeller on 02/10/11 at 08:28:20

Great info, thanks for sharing it!

Regarding your drill, we used to have one like that, the guys had a name for it, "The Arm Breaker". Congrats on finding a simple way to simulate the engine at idle.

A couple questions for you:

What do you think the stringy stuff was, maybe gasket material, old sludge and dirt? Varnish/film coating on the inside of the oil passages, that had dried up and curled up over time.

The 27 seconds to fill up the oil passages etc. Was that the time for the first trial after filing the case with oil? Yes, this was the one that filled up the oil filter cavity.

Do you know how long it takes to get flow up in the top end in under normal circumstances, say after it has been run and then drains back down, I hope it isn't the 27 seconds. It is a variable depending on how much passageway has drained empty back through the oil pump due to extended sit time.

I missed the beginning of this experiment, why is it now being put in storage? It is the spare engine, the one on the bike is doing fine so it isn't needed right now.

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by einheit13 on 02/10/11 at 14:02:23

Whats the compression ratio for a stock motor?? It seams low to me, but, again, I don't know what the stock specs are. Was it checked when it was hot?? Throttle wide open?? 150 on a hot motor would be fine...

I do see room for an external oil feed for the top end. I'm gonna source an old oil pump and see what thats all bout...I'm assuming its a gear pump and not a plunger style. Gear pumps are kinda easy to hop up.

Title: Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Post by Oldfeller on 02/11/11 at 09:05:54

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF00039.JPG

Service range is 140 to 204 so 150 is inside the service range on the low end. As was said earlier, piston rings are not seated yet and valves are likely pretty sticky acting as the motor hasn't been turned over in years.

And yes, if I put it in a frame and broke it in good I'd expect to see some higher compression readings than 150 psi from it, but really that ain't too shabby for a trashed 56,000 mile motor that had died twice due to no oil pressure ....

;) at least it has good oil flow and pressure up at the head bearings now, so it has a good chance of being a good running stand in motor should my modified engine blow up on me and I need a drop in to keep my bike rolling while I work on the main engine

So, who else has a dead engine or head that they have given up on as unfixable? Tell me the details of the death symptoms and I'll see if I find any interest in attempting to overcome that type of engine death for the Tech Section.