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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Raptor Wars: A Chapter on the Raptor /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1340099972 Message started by Scott.aust on 06/19/12 at 02:59:31 |
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Title: Raptor Wars: A Chapter on the Raptor Post by Scott.aust on 06/19/12 at 02:59:31 Great post !! Thank you for the trouble of doing all that research and putting it out here. I'm going for a Raptor for the simple reason that Off is OFF. |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by Badass94Cad on 06/19/12 at 07:04:36 Nice comparison. The swap is super easy and worth it for several reasons, not the least of which is NOW YOU CAN REMOVE THE TANK EASILY!!! :) |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by Savage_Rob on 06/19/12 at 08:40:15 6B484D485A5A101D6A484D290 wrote:
Agreed. As noted in the original post, the stock petcock rubbed the frame badly when removing the tank. I didn't take mine off though; I just rubbed the paint off the frame at that point. The Raptor doesn't hit the frame at all. |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by Oldfeller on 06/19/12 at 09:10:51 Dave, First, float and valve assemblies actually sticking on you are incredibly rare after mounting a Raptor, much more so than the stock vac petcock as the stock petcock tends to run the bowl empty and force the float assembly to drop to the bottom extreme limit of its travel, which is where it tends to stick. (and they do tend to stick a bit when the vac unit begins to starve the engine all the time) The Raptor never causes this "stick the float" as it never starves the bowl for gasoline. Your float assembly is always floating in that narrow just barely closed "sweet spot" that it is designed & intended to float in. Float assemblies never stick in the "sweet spot", ever. ========== Leaking Fuel Valve Assemblies Leaking fuel valve assemblies are different from sticking float assemblies -- a leaker has a flaw in the rubber lined probe and seat assembly that is very slowly dripping fuel (a drop at a time) all the time. Leaker float valves are a mechanical failure mode of the carburetor, caused by vibrational abuse or possibly over-use of strong chemical carburetor cleaners that swelled/cracked the rubber part of the float valve seal until it did not mate right any more. To give you a numerical quantification on leakers, there has only been two leaking float valve assemblies ever noted after changing over to a Raptor, both of which had been leaking on those particular carburetors since before the stock petcock was removed. In both cases the user dropped the bowl and changed out the damaged float valve assembly. In both cases, it was a simple mechanical problem with the carburetor that was due to previous abuse. In neither case did any gasoline get into the sump. Remember, gasoline in the sump has NEVER YET HAPPENED due to a Raptor petcock conversion, indeed the only gas in sump episodes of any severity (such as could possibly result in a fire, etc.) have happened with the stock vacuum actuated petcock diaphragm failing and running gas down the vac line. But we are all watching diligently for that first Raptor gas in sump episode as logically it is a possibility, abet a slim one. Fact is, you leave your Raptor on -- nothing bad happens. Some of us (Serowbot, Oldfeller) leave our Raptors on all the time as a matter of habit, only shutting it off for any long term storage periods. Raptors don't cause any known failure modes that have any identifiable frequency even when left on. Vac petcocks however WILL FAIL INSIDE THEMSELVES DUE TO RUBBER AGEING on a almost certainty basis over a 5-15 year period. Vac petcocks as a separate system have 5 known failure modes and ARE KNOWN to put gasoline down into the sump with some of them. When using normal pump gasolines (not fancy nitro racing fuel) no Raptor petcock has ever failed in 20 years and 100s of thousands of installations on both RVs and Savages. They just work. And if your float valve assembly isn't in sorry shape to begin with, Raptors do work flawlessly in the Savage motorcycle. |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by DangMan on 06/19/12 at 11:27:44 Have anyone tryed out the petcock from the suzuki AX-100 http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/488282017/AX100_motorcycle_and_various_China_ATV.html Looks like a fit ! |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by clearush on 06/19/12 at 14:17:05 634649406A4649270 wrote:
That looks like the one that was sent to me off ebay when I bought a raptor petcock, it works just fine. |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by Dave on 06/20/12 at 05:11:23 44616E674D616E000 wrote:
The petcock looks like it is made a bit cheaply......but it could work. That link that you provided requires you order 300 at a minimum! :o |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by Dave on 06/20/12 at 05:14:59 6241494B484141485F2D0 wrote:
Well.....I hope you are right. Last night I went for a ride, and this morning I realized I have not yet adapted to the new Raptor.....I forgot to shut it off after my ride. On my trials bike it is just a habit and I always shut it off - while on my Savage I have gotten into the habit of just turning off the key. I did not notice any gas on the floor this morning when I went into the garage. |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by Oldfeller on 06/20/12 at 10:20:50 So Dave, you are now a certified member of the whole crowd of people who are "diligently looking for the very first Raptor gas in sump episode". There are many many many of us and we are all looking jest as hard as we can. We will find it, eventually ..... and when we do we will tell everybody all about the circumstances surrounding it. Let's see -- it is very hard to park the bike pointing downhill as the kickstand only works when the bike is level or pointing uphill, so we tend to park the bike pointing uphill if ground tilt is an issue at all. Next, the bike is always tilted sideways on the kickstand, which puts one of the float bowl overflows a bit lower than the venturi anyway. Next, the venturi itself is a cone with the small (higher) end towards the engine and the big end towards the air box. Between the bike facing uphill and the bike being tilted to the side and the venturi being a cone with the taller side towards the engine, not much gas is going to climb up all those slopes to get up to the intake valves, which have to be open for the gas to drip into the cylinder, BTW. Spring pressure on the valve train and engine compression tends to make the engine kick back gently at close down to make sure the intake valves are shut -- that's what kick back is, compression and valve spring forces rotating the engine backwards towards piston bottom dead center, with the valves closed. ;) Ain't kickback nice, especially since every big single has it as a built in feature. The air box itself can hold a lot of leakage drops that naturally do run down hill into the air box, drops which will evaporate at about the same rate a leaker float valve assembly would release them. Remember, a bad leaky float valve assembly leaks at a slow drops per minute rate, not a steady drizzle like a failed vac diaphragm would do. In any case, we will all keep diligently looking, especially those of us that don't always turn the Raptor off because we are jest plumb too lazy. |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by DangMan on 06/20/12 at 12:29:28 300, then I have some to spare :) I know i shop here that have those in stock :) |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by Dave on 06/21/12 at 05:43:10 7251595B585151584F3D0 wrote:
No I'm not.....I have deleted the offensive part of my original post. I have modified it to suggest that if on the rare occurrence the float sticks - gas will run someplace. I do however believe that it is a good idea to shut the petcock off, especially when the bike will not be ridden for a while. As you know, the diaphragm petcock has a "PRIME" position for when the fuel evaporates out of the float bowl when the bike is not ridden for an extended period of time. When the fuel evaporates from the float bowl the bike does not start right away......unless we first set the petcock to prime. If you leave the Raptor petcok "ON", as the fuel evaporates and the float drops - some more fuel will flow into the float bowl. My experience is (mostly from lawn equipment with gravity systems) - the parts of the fuel that evaporate quickly will leave first, and what is left in the float bowl gradually becomes a high concentration of stuff that does not like to vaporize or burn....and it makes the engine hard to start. This "stuff" that is in the float bowl can also become corrosive if it has a high concentration of ethanol. |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by Oldfeller on 06/21/12 at 10:49:26 10% ethanol gas mix -- which part evaporates first? That turns out to be a good question, one that gets involved in phase separation effects to answer it well. The stuff will very slowly segregate (alky/water goes low) so gas tends to be up top to be what evaporates first once some separation takes place. Key word here is SLOW, like it takes months sitting totally still to do it. Short term, the still mixed by even by slight motions the 10% alkygas evaporates evenly. Boat people discuss this stuff more than any other set of folks as they have boats that sit up in racks for months between uses. BTW, they believe in Marine Stabil to keep the gas mixed and healthy in long storage. And they really do avoid buying alky gas -- they b-atch some about premium gas not really being premium any more as they HAVE to buy it trying to avoid the alcohol mixed stuff .... HOWEVER, these same boat people, they say higher E rated fuels have the fuel separation issues in a more pronounced and much more rapid fashion. And they hate E85 with a purple passion as one tank full can cause some older style fiberglass tankage (common on boats) to lose resin from the tank fiber glass matrix into the 85% alcohol fuel making a right noxious residue laden mixture to try to combust inside an engine. While we are waiting and watching for our float valve assemblies to start leaking on us, we can also keep a weather eye out for any gasoline effects due to E10 and higher fuels. Tank rust, stuff like that too. I mean, we are all gonna be lookin' hard every day, so we WILL see it if it happens. |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by germuffler on 06/21/12 at 11:52:44 Great post, thanks! |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by 87 savage on 06/23/12 at 12:14:19 Awesome post and pictures! I have been on the fence in regard to changing over to the Raptor 660 petcock, but with my bike doing the occasional out of the blue RPM drop, I'm going to order one of those puppies today. |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by JohnBoy on 07/01/12 at 22:38:01 I "Drank the Cool-Aide" over a year ago. I never turn off the petcock and I have never had a problem of any kind. I consider the Raptor mod the best investment to this bike that I have made to date...and I have made a bunch of chances. |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by heroicseven on 07/02/12 at 01:24:20 +1 |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by tarkm812 on 07/02/12 at 09:09:30 My brother gave me his 87 Savage which had stalling at lights, idling stumbling problems and would sometimes leak fuel out of the carb vents while idling. He told me he had "rebuilt" the petcock last year and still had issues. I replaced it with the raptor ($20 easy job) and have not had a fuel problem since. I have not checked jetting yet. I do have some popping on decel (normal?) and a nice loud POW on shutdown but the bike is great (averaged 70 mpg on a 300 mile ride). This raptor fix is the way to go. With the stock petcock, I found myself constantly looking down to see if there was fuel anywhere while I was riding. Not good. |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by High_Plains_Thumpr on 07/05/12 at 11:16:44 776271686E3B3231030 wrote:
Excellent year (I have one also!) Quote:
I'm considering this as my next purchase (upgrade) sometime near future. Quote:
This is normal and a characteristic of the particular carburetors and IMO the double fire ignition (fires at end of compression stroke and at end of exhaust stroke. (This is why you can use an aftermarket electronic tachometer for a Harley Davidson.) Quote:
Those are excellent consumption figures. I've been averaging around 48 MPG riding nominally 60 to 70 MPH (97 to 113 kmh) at these higher elevations at 4,300 to 8,000 feet (1,311 m to 2,438 m). Quote:
Yes, that is definitely unsafe. :o |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by RanDaMan on 07/09/12 at 07:54:26 Can anyone tell me if swapping out the stock petcock for the raptor will require any other adjustments? Like the fuel mixture screw or a re-jet? or if those two things even come in to play here :-/ ? |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by rfw2003 on 07/09/12 at 08:33:06 66555A705579555A340 wrote:
no need to re-jet or anything, the petcock is basically just a shutoff valve for the fuel from your tank to the carb. |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by High_Plains_Thumpr on 07/09/12 at 08:47:43 0A39361C39153936580 wrote:
No. The Raptor is simply a fuel shutoff and selector valve (main - off - reserve). The bowl of your carburetor operates similar to a toilet bowl tank. Fuel flows from the tank through the Raptor into the carb bowl until the float valve rises, shutting off fuel flow. The carburetor uses the fuel from this bowl to feed the carburetor. The Raptor should not affect your adjustments. |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by RanDaMan on 07/09/12 at 08:52:06 THANKS :) |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by High_Plains_Thumpr on 07/09/12 at 09:01:55 694C4B4D614C5A230 wrote:
The off position is a fail safe feature. Should for some reason the carburetor's float needle valve fail (worn out, sticking hinge, speck of dirt or rust lodged on needle seat, fuel will continue to flow. This could possibly fill the piston chamber causing damage to the piston / crank pin / connecting rod / starter when starting. (Liquids are incompressible.) Fuel could seep past the piston into the crankcase, diluting the oil and overfilling the crankcase with consequences. So, you've been lucky no damages have occurred. Even I have forgotten to shut off the fuel on another bike that has a manual petcock. Safety is the reason for turning the petcock off when motorcycle is not in use. This is why Suzuki came up with the automatic vacuum operated petcock, so people do not have to worry about manually shutting the petcock off. |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by RanDaMan on 07/11/12 at 08:28:02 So where is the best place to purchase the raptor 660 petcock? |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by Badass94Cad on 07/11/12 at 09:38:01 16252A002509252A440 wrote:
Dealership, eBay..... ;) |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by rfw2003 on 07/11/12 at 09:39:52 I got mine at Ron Ayers |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by RanDaMan on 07/11/12 at 10:08:20 Just ordered mine 8-) roughly how long did it take for delivery? |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by rfw2003 on 07/11/12 at 10:10:33 took mine about 4 days |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by Greg on 07/11/12 at 10:15:44 6E5D52785D715D523C0 wrote:
I got mine from BikeBandits. Ron Ayer's website search sucks so I paid a few extra dollars for less frustration. |
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Title: Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........ Post by RanDaMan on 07/11/12 at 10:49:07 6D686F6463690A0 wrote:
I got mine from BikeBandits. Ron Ayer's website search sucks so I paid a few extra dollars for less frustration.[/quote] ;D yeah it was driving me nuts for about ten min, i couldnt find it i typed the product number in five times and it wouldnt show up! so i found the link from a past thread and it brought me right to the part... had i known bikebandit was another option i would of taken the same route haha but none the less the Raptor is on its way 8-) |
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Title: Re: Raptor Wars: A Chapter on the Raptor Post by Pascal on 07/21/12 at 05:24:20 I had some troubles with my stock petcock on my 1998 Savage. This morning I removed the petcock. I installed a Raptor petcock very easily. Thank you for this topic. :) |
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Title: Re: Raptor Wars: A Chapter on the Raptor Post by liltimmy on 05/16/13 at 08:17:29 Old topic but I found this... Cheapest place. I buy a lot of parts from them for my '05. They are consistently better priced. $24.87 total. http://www.boats.net/parts/detail/yamaha/Y-5LP-24500-01-00.html |
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Title: Re: Raptor Wars: A Chapter on the Raptor Post by Gheorghe on 05/16/13 at 10:37:13 I bought mine from Ron Ayers I think it was $26.xx shipped and I got it in 3 days. It was a genuine Yamaha part. http://www.ronayers.com/Search/N/687/Criteria/5LP-24500-01-00&adv=5&kw... |
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Title: Re: Raptor Wars: A Chapter on the Raptor Post by Dane Allen on 05/16/13 at 10:42:38 755A575D40555A57320 wrote:
Ditto |
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