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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Douuble amputee /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1344083958 Message started by WebsterMark on 08/04/12 at 05:39:18 |
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Title: Douuble amputee Post by WebsterMark on 08/04/12 at 05:39:18 Oscar Pistorius is the double amputee nicknamed Blade Runner because of the attachments he uses to run with. Is it just me (and it might be because I root for the Japanese when watching Whale Wars) but is this setting a precedent that shouldn’t be set? Assume it could be proven they give him absolutely no advantage running wise, but doesn’t the fact his lungs are full size and provide oxygen to fewer muscles than his competitors give him an advantage? |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by Paraquat on 08/04/12 at 06:37:03 How about that he can't feel fatigue in his knees? (If we're talking about the same guy I think we're talking about) --Steve |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by bill67 on 08/04/12 at 07:56:39 I think they should have their own class,Call it the GWB class. |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/04/12 at 09:05:28 They could do it like some horse races & handicap him,, but,, who has the heart to handicap the handicapped guy? |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by Serowbot on 08/04/12 at 09:19:09 Tough call on this one.... He just did well in the prelim... Made it look easy... Incredible technology... Looks so simple, and works so effectively... I think I could run faster with those... :-?... ... but I like shoes... :-/... |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/04/12 at 10:24:13 Iwonder if he would be good in the high jump.. |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by Paraquat on 08/04/12 at 12:00:28 http://i.usatoday.net/sports/_photos/2012/08/04/Oscar-Pistorius-continues-historic-Olympic-run-2120H54T-x-large.jpg --Steve |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by Serowbot on 08/05/12 at 23:05:35 Just watched the semi's... he came in last... ... still.. it is inspiring... The prosthetic... has no power,.. the propulsion is all his... (equivalent to nothing more than fancy shoes)... I am awed... ...to get there.. and to qualify for semi's... I didn't care if he won or lost,.. but I do wish he had come in other than last... It felt like a loss to me,.. and it should not to him... To be last among the very very best in the world... it's strange to see it as a loss... The Semi winner.. exchanged name tags with him.. very touching... (not sure of the symbolism, but well intended)... The saddest thing about the Olympics, is seeing those that don't get gold as losers... This encapsulates the concept,..of the honour of just being an Olympian... Corny sentiment... but these people really are achieving the physical best of 7 billion people... Hard to comprehend... Anyway,.. a guy with no lower legs,.. just showed us what he's made of... So cool!... ;)... He still has a chance to medal,.. in the relay... I convinced... it hasn't created an unfair playing field... I wish him well... :)... |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by zippythezip on 08/22/12 at 19:21:46 what would we be saying if he had won? |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/22/12 at 20:50:02 Wow,, didja see that guy go?!?! |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by Serowbot on 08/22/12 at 23:07:09 4C5F46464F425E534C5F46360 wrote:
I really don't know... I suppose I'd wonder if it was an advantage... ... but,.. he did say in an interview... "Many thousands of people are using these,.. and I'm the only one that qualified for the Olympics"... It was inspiring to see,.. |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by splash07 on 08/23/12 at 06:34:56 645651404756417E524158330 wrote:
Making assumptions is dangerous. So it is true that his lungs supply O2 to fewer muscles but that also means that they are having to supply more O2 to those fewer muscles than everyone else. Since he has no lower leg his upper leg will have to compensate and work harder, requiring more oxygen. I dont know if there is an advantage or not but he sure can run, and qualifying out of thousands of other amputees..............Amazing! |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by srinath on 08/23/12 at 13:41:37 Guys I have flat feet and a pair of heel spurs that are killing me. I would love having no feet. Really ... except I cant tell the doctor to hack em off ... It is darn painful and I have a closet full of shoes. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by Serowbot on 08/23/12 at 14:28:26 ... on the other hand,.. I have a bad back... but at least I got one... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by Pine on 08/23/12 at 14:37:16 I thought I saw where it had been challenged ( that he had an advantage) and been disproven. I would think that any advantage would be offset by the lack of calf muscles. Reactionary Springs do not make up for the lack working muscles (IMHO). Maybe if they made the appendages longer ... way longer he would have an advantage by sheer gait (if he could power it). |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by WebsterMark on 08/23/12 at 17:05:18 So it is true that his lungs supply O2 to fewer muscles but that also means that they are having to supply more O2 to those fewer muscles than everyone else. why would that be the case? If he's missing, let's say 10% of the muscle mass of the next person, but with the same lung capacity, why would the reamining 90% muscle mass use up more o2 than the competitor next to him? The carbon fiber acting as his calfs and ankles are mechanical, they do not use 02. Aren't they just using kinetic energy building up and down each time he puts his weight on them? Am i missing something? |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by splash07 on 08/23/12 at 22:32:14 He still has to create that kinetic energy, so the remaining 90% (im thinking its less than that, probably more like 75%) is having to make up the energy that his calf would have created. He is using the same amount of O2 as his neighbor but just in different muscles. |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by WebsterMark on 08/24/12 at 06:09:01 This is an interesting topic that we might be able to keep politics out of…. He still has to create that kinetic energy, so the remaining 90% (im thinking its less than that, probably more like 75%) is having to make up the energy that his calf would have created. He is using the same amount of O2 as his neighbor but just in different muscles. I don't think so. Imagine a complete clone of Oscar Pistorius, identical in every way with the exception he has legs, not carbon fiber blades. They are sprinting side x side. Let’s say the carbon fiber Oscar weights 180 lbs and the Oscar with human legs weights 200 lbs. Two things come to mind. 1) the carbon Oscar has less weight his thigh muscles have to carry; 20 lbs less. Less weight mean less work done which means less energy expended which means less o2 supply required to replenish energy supplies. 2) with 20 lbs less muscles to supply o2 to, his full sized lungs have excess capacity compared to regular Oscar. That excess o2 is available for other uses that regular Oscar does not have availalble. Again, all other things being equal, wouldn’t the blood supply of carbon fiber Oscar have more o2 capability? If you have two motorcycles with identical engines, but one has been stripped of excess weight, wouldn’t the lighter motorcycle be both faster and use less fuel? Doesn’t the same thing apply with Oscar? I’m trying to figure all this out without resorting to Google. Call it kitchen table engineering… |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by Dave on 08/24/12 at 06:35:49 I got really mixed feelings about this.....and can see some legitimate arguments for both sides. I do feel however that the olympics should be for people competing on equal terms. When you start replacing body parts with fabricated mechanical parts.....it is no longer equal.....one side is going to have an advantage. With todays technology it may the the one without the mechanical parts.....but one day the advantage will shift as the technology changes. If blades are acceptable......are wheels acceptable as well? If blades are allowed for the runners.....are flippers acceptable for the swimmers? This issue is just too gray for me in the current form.....I would think you would want to keep it more black and white. Athletes should be competing with their peers......and not with technology. Obviously for the sports with bikes, sleds, skis, tennis rackets, etc. there is a need for advanced equipment - but for running, jumping, etc. it should not be involved. |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by splash07 on 08/24/12 at 06:47:24 You actually make a good point about the weight loss. So if we take that into account I think his O2 use rate will be the same as his almost identical counterpart but his overall O2 used would be lower. I think? The motorcycle comparison is poor because the weight lost on the bike wasn't contributing to the moving of the bike. In the case of the runner, his calf was. so if the advantage from the weight loss is counteracted equally by the need to compensate for the muscles not there, then the O2 use rate is the same but the overall O2 used is lower for the amputee. If the advantage from weight loss is greater than the compensation, then the O2 use rate goes down. Finally, if the advantage from weight loss is less than the need to compensate will cause the O2 use rate to go up and the overall O2 used to be greater as well. I guess we would have to know exactly what each factor was contributing. I am guessing since he has been an amputee since 11 months old, he is pretty well adjusted by now and probably has similar O2 requirements as comparable athletes. Someone who is still coping with amputation would be different I am guessing. I am no MD, this is all speculation of course. |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by WebsterMark on 08/24/12 at 08:09:52 You actually make a good point about the weight loss. So if we take that into account I think his O2 use rate will be the same as his almost identical counterpart but his overall O2 used would be lower. I think? The way I’m looking at it is all muscles in both runners are operating at 100% of their performance capabilities so all of the individual components required for that peak performance are maxed out. So, if one runner has extra o2 available to distribute to fewer muscles, (because the source of o2, the lungs, are identical) it would seem his muscles would have an extra amount of one component, in this case, o2. Seems like that could only be a benefit. The motorcycle comparison is poor because the weight lost on the bike wasn't contributing to the moving of the bike. In the case of the runner, his calf was. so if the advantage from the weight loss is counteracted equally by the need to compensate for the muscles not there, then the O2 use rate is the same but the overall O2 used is lower for the amputee. If the advantage from weight loss is greater than the compensation, then the O2 use rate goes down. Finally, if the advantage from weight loss is less than the need to compensate will cause the O2 use rate to go up and the overall O2 used to be greater as well. I guess we would have to know exactly what each factor was contributing. Okay, assume part of the weight savings is a lower weight piston. We used to cut pistons sleeves down on old motocross bikes. Now we have lower overall weight plus lower weight in an energy producing component. That’s seems comparable to carbon fiber lower legs. Less overall weight plus less weight in the components to move the body forward. |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by srinath on 08/24/12 at 08:32:16 The truth is in the workout regimen, not in the race ... so here I can imagine a scenario where the carbon oscar can work out harder and will never hurt his feet, toes, heel ... Remember 25% of all the bones in your body are in your feet (I think, 44 bones out of 206 if I recall), that is a lot of bones to get rid of that wont crop up with some dumb problem or another and hurt your training regimen. How many times has one of us wrestled a motor out of a bike and screamed obscenities when we set it on our foot ... I'd say a big advantage in training. Of course he is too good to be in the paralympics ... thus leaving him nowhere to compete where he's par with the rest of his field. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by Trippah on 08/24/12 at 21:39:38 I think it's a bad resposnse to a difficult situation. Next O will someone with a replcement valve compete, then a compleat hart trans, then heart and lungs....no, once you have been altered surgically (excluding tonsils, appendix et al) I think you should move into a different competition... |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/24/12 at 21:51:15 He didnt win. If it was a substantial advantage, Id expect to see people "injuring" their lower legs & " Having to have them amputated".. Some people will go to any lengths to "win".. |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by WebsterMark on 08/25/12 at 06:15:24 It either didn’t give him enough performance improvement or he didn’t have the talent otherwise to compete at the top level. But… that doesn’t mean the next generation of blades won’t be better and make the difference. Therein lies the rub. They’ve now set a precedent that athletes with artificial limbs can compete and they did this based on sympathetic feelings. Athletics at the highest level is cruel and it should always be cruel. It’s a paradox in that it’s the fairest thing of all while seeming so unfair. Casey Martin sued under the American Disabilities Act to ride in a golf cart so he could compete in the US Open Golf Championship. With our lawsuit happy and blame someone else culture, it won’t be long until a similar ridiculous argument is made. It was a bad idea to let him compete. |
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Title: Re: Douuble amputee Post by bill67 on 08/25/12 at 06:35:52 Do they make a performance improvement for thingys yet. |
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