|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Halvors O2 tuning /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1346078011 Message started by Halvor on 08/27/12 at 07:33:31 |
|
Title: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 08/27/12 at 07:33:31 Tired of tuning and guessing, I mounted a O2 meter. It is fantastic, I can not take my eyes off it when driving. It gives very clear answers to my carb tuning. I will share a video and my tuning data here. Maybee it can help others. What I have learned today is that the mixture screw doesnt affect the other circuits much (mostly engine braking and idle mix), and that the white spacer might be inserted again. My main jet was way to lean, and the cruising O2% was a bit rich and outside optimum. [media]<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/48299080" width="500" height="364" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe> <p><a href="http://vimeo.com/48299080">O2 sensor on ls 650 savage</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user1589992">Halvor Torgersen</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>[/media] Specs: Opened dyna muffler (app 40% light opening in the wall), home made angeled connection fro header-muffler, KN kone air filter Mix Pilot Main Spacer Carb settings 1/2 CCW 52,5 150 3 washers Results o2% Idle 10,50 % Crusing 11 % Engine braking when crusing 16 % Half throttle 14-16% (Optimum) 3/4 throttle 18 % Full throttle 20 % Full throttle+ high rev Over 20% (out of range) I think about trying bigger main and replace the white spacer. Video: https://vimeo.com/48299080 |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Dave on 08/27/12 at 08:39:25 I am glad to know that this works.....I am about 2 weeks away from trying it myself. I had a O2 gauge sitting in my toolbox from a previous project - but no O2 sensor. Yesterday I ordered the O2 bungs, and a single wire Oxygen sensor to adapt this to the Savage. Do you remember what ID pipe size is needed to slide over the stock header pipe? |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by RanDaMan on 08/27/12 at 08:49:29 Dave, if i remember correctly the stock header inlet is 1.56 " outside dia. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by verslagen1 on 08/27/12 at 09:03:46 7A535E445D40320 wrote:
Doesn't rich mean smaller main? |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by ralfyguy on 08/27/12 at 10:34:54 7B687F7E616C6A68633C0D0 wrote:
Doesn't rich mean smaller main?[/quote] If you're at over 20:1 at WOT then it should be too lean. If that's what 20% means. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 08/27/12 at 12:02:31 Yes, it is Lean from half to full throttle. I will try a 155 main. At crucing it is slightly rich, therefore I concider putting back he original white spacer on the needle. I have 3 washers now= 1/2 spacer. I do not know how sensible it is for changes. I will be back with results. Between lean and rich its an area with optimal mix. It is optimal when driving at highway speed. I guess the circuts meets each other. Heres the equipment. App. 100 dollars for complete system. http://www.biltema.no/ProductImages/32/large/32-214_l.jpg http://www.biltema.no/ProductImages/52/large/52-950_l.jpg |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by srinath on 08/27/12 at 12:09:12 O2 sensor - a 1994 chevy cavalier one works good. Its a single wire part. I used ti in my GS like 13 years ago then in my eliminator. The savage may run too cold for that atleast @ the exhaust where you fit it. It needs temperature to be functional. The header wrap may work on the thing, but you could also try the ones fitted with heater coild. I thought it puts out DC voltage, under 1/2 volt is lean, over 1/2 is rich ? How did you get it to say in a % Cool. Srinath. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 08/31/12 at 07:15:20 New specs and test runs. Mix Pilot Main Spacer Carb settings 0,5-1,5 CCW 52,5 155 1/1 original spacer Results o2% Idle 10,50 % (same as last run) Crusing 11,5 % (+0,5%) Half throttle 12-13% (-3%) 3/4 throttle 16% (-2%) Full throttle 18% (-2%) Full throttle+ high rev 18,5% (before: out of range) I found on internet that 12-13% is best for power. 14,7% is best for combustion (MPG, emission) THe mix screw has less effect than expected. It was not possible to measure differrence in O2 on crusing speed from ,5 to 1,5. But it was for pops and bangs. It is tempting to try with a smaller pilot, but I will try with a 160 main first. I am quite close in the pilot area with 11,5% (power) but not for MPG. Main is still way to lean on half to full throttle. What suprises me is the good results with putting the original white spacer back again...... Tning for MPG it might be adjusted leaner... ? But I adjust for power of cource. And the rich side will make the engine run a bit cooler, wich is nice for a air cooled engine. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Serowbot on 08/31/12 at 09:20:12 Keep us posted... Very interesting info... I am considering going up one on my main and restoring my spacer... based on your results... Might help mpg's... Thanks.. ;)... (I'm currently #150/50 with 2/3rd spacer... may go #152.5/50 with full spacer)...@ 2600ft...w/ K/N and Harley shorty (full baffle)... |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by bill67 on 08/31/12 at 09:55:16 I'm two up on main jet one on low,Stock spacer. Its a little lean in mid range till motor warms up good or below 50 degrees .Drilled out stock muffler. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by mjs3790225 on 08/31/12 at 10:42:53 Love'n the data. Can't wait for more! SCIENCE! lol ;D |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 08/31/12 at 10:47:01 Thanks for interest. Heres some more info: Idle 10,5 Cruising in 80kmh 11,5 Cruising in 100kmh 12 A little more than 100kmh 12,5 THis tells me that my pilot (52,5) is to big. I have ordered a 50 pilot, a 170 main and a 180 main :) I guess the KN filter provides for to little vacume? It is very lean with 155 main. (18%). It changed 2% on an increment of 5. I guess it is not linear, but I want values around 12-13. THerefore the big jets. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by built2last66 on 08/31/12 at 13:15:13 Can you tell us any engine mods you did and is that the stock air box or did you use a K&N cone/pod filter? |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 08/31/12 at 14:35:14 KN filter, opened up dyna muffler. Home made bend for upsweep muffler mount and opened header wich gives more volume (betwen inner and outer tube) for the exhaust. I do not know if it change anything with more volume. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 08/31/12 at 14:37:12 O2 meter |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 09/01/12 at 00:03:23 Serowboot: Is your engine hot/cold after "cruising" driving? I have the impression of that small adjustment in the area I am in (10 - 14), cruising speed, change engine temperature significant. I can hold my hand for a second on the cylinder with those walues. My friend have a savage with original jets and leaking muffler. I guess he is very lean, and the engine is crazy hot. It would not surprise me if laser temperature gauge measurements would correlate with the 02 values. I might try, for fun. Theese gauges are quite cheep to get and simple to use. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/01/12 at 00:44:40 I really like seeing such a scientific approach to tuning,Im enjoying this thread,, |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by ToesNose on 09/01/12 at 03:58:20 Hey Halvor I just picked up a Black&Decker laser temperature gauge off FleaBay for $21 including shipping, they ususlly run around $28. Fun little toy to mess with around the house and in the garage :D |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Paraquat on 09/01/12 at 05:39:14 Looks like a Prosport gauge. I'm curious. The c50 guys tune for mid 12's. When I tune my car I shoot for 14.6-15.4 at idle, 12.6 during spool (turbocharged) and 11.1 at WOT. 12's seems too lean for me. --Steve |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by LANCER on 09/01/12 at 09:11:27 What is the unit of measure on the gauge you are using ? "K&N Air/Fuel Monitor uses this same electric signal to illuminate a group of 10 LED lights that correspond with an air/fuel ratio scale. Reading the scale will tell if your fuel calibration is rich, lean or just right. Using the Monitor as a tool, a tuner can adjust for peak performance, economy and/or drivability under any load condition or throttle setting." Fuel/air Ratio ECONOMY Light 1 Light 2 Light 3 17.1 16.0 15.1 BEST ALL-AROUND Light 4 Light 5 Light 6 Light 7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 POWER Light 8 Light 9 Light 10 14.0 13.2 12.1 |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by built2last66 on 09/01/12 at 09:44:38 I absolutely cannot wait to get one of these! :D Lancer, I need to talk to you when you get a chance btw Halvor, what brand monitor do you have? |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 09/01/12 at 12:22:53 It is from "biltema". A chain of shops with affordable tools, parts etc in scandinavia. Heres the equipment. App. 100 dollars for complete system included single wire sensor. http://www.biltema.no/ProductImages/32/large/32-214_l.jpg http://www.biltema.no/ProductImages/52/large/52-950_l.jpg The housing is self made in stainless steel. But Biltema has housings too. But self made is more fun. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 09/01/12 at 12:37:13 Lancer: I think it is the same units you have. THe o2% is showed digital between 10 and 20 and with led lamps in different colors. A disco effect. ;D It is great to have this after the tuning allso to monitor the engine and see if it is working as normal. It flashes when out of range (over 20 or under 10), it shows the voltage in time intervals. When you turn on or off the ignition it takes several rounds with led flashings back and forth. Wery impressing. Cant get enough of it. Paraquat: Interesting. I thought 12-13 was best for power? 14,7 should be best for combustion? THanks for advices. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by LANCER on 09/01/12 at 12:54:39 2C3B27223A7C222F3D3A78784E0 wrote:
What's up dude ? Will be visiting kids & grands this afternoon & evening but will check in when I get home. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by ralfyguy on 09/01/12 at 17:38:07 I'm just impressed how much bigger it shows to have the main jet and how much smaller the pilot jet. It is somewhat completely opposite from what the majority of folks here are doing before you posted this thread. Looks like we must be all jetted completely wrong. :-? The discrepancy is simply stunning. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by rfw2003 on 09/01/12 at 17:49:30 687B767C637D6F631A0 wrote:
To be honest, it doesn't surprise me one bit. We have been jetting via spark plug readings and backpop through the muffler. When jetting using spark plug readings you are jetting over an avg throughout the throttle range and not each individual range unless you have a dyno so that you can specifically hold it in that range and shut it off while it's in that range of throttle. Overall if you look at it with a bigger main and smaller pilot you still getting the same fuel at WOT as a bigger pilot and smaller main since they are all accumulative. R.F. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by ralfyguy on 09/01/12 at 18:33:34 392D3C797B7B784B0 wrote:
To be honest, it doesn't surprise me one bit. We have been jetting via spark plug readings and backpop through the muffler. When jetting using spark plug readings you are jetting over an avg throughout the throttle range and not each individual range unless you have a dyno so that you can specifically hold it in that range and shut it off while it's in that range of throttle. Overall if you look at it with a bigger main and smaller pilot you still getting the same fuel at WOT as a bigger pilot and smaller main since they are all accumulative. R.F.[/quote] It makes sense what you say. Still amazed about the pilot jet part. I can't remember anybody trying a smaller pilot than the stock one because everybody thought it is too small. So a bigger jet went in. Usually from stock 52.5 - 55. This made the bikes run better at idle and low speeds/throttle. About the main jet part, usually people went from stock 145 to at least 150 (like me) or even 155. But according to those readings, still waaaay to small. I once tried a 155 on mine and the bike just choked on it when cracked open and that with a new air filter. BUT, if you look at the jet sizes on 80's Savages the stock pilot was a 47.5 and the stock main was a 155. And that was before EPA BS. But the carbs back then were a tad different as well. The needle had no spacer, but grooves instead and that one air jet was different as well. Makes me wonder if we were to use the older carbs, the bikes would run better to begin with. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/01/12 at 19:37:15 Makes me wonder if we were to use the older carbs, the bikes would run better to begin with. I think thats a great idea for an experiment,, If one of the tuner guys would get a bike all set up & find an older carb, clean it up & put it on & compare performance, thatd be interesting. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by ralfyguy on 09/01/12 at 20:04:00 7C6365627F7849794971636F24160 wrote:
Actually I wondered about this a long time ago. I even keep checking on eBay, if ever one from an '86 or so pops up. Pinwall Cycles is one of my favorites as they have a slew of parts from wrecked bikes for cheap. The part that six is that in several years I only saw a couple of cards listed. I wonder what they do with all the carbs they pull. If they ever list an '86, I'll get it and clean it up and slap it on my '06 just for giggles. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/01/12 at 21:34:29 Well,, hurry up & do it, I need a giggle, too. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 09/02/12 at 00:34:04 Hope my measurements are right. But on 20% o2 it pops, and the engine temperature correspond to the values, so it seems to make sense. When shutting throttle for gear shift or engine breaking the o2 runs to lean. If more than 20 it pops. I adjusted it for 18 and it works fine. The mix screw have had no effect on other value measurement. The carbs are set up a bit different. I have a european model with other settings. My needle has both slots and spacer. Original jets are 125/47,5 , and theres a electric switch on ful lthrottle on the side of the carb. Se previous photo. I think it adjust for earlier ignition? I believe the reason for the need for big main jet is less vacume and different pulse, together with more air volume. The large decrease in vacume is not present on the other side of the piston by the pilot jet when the piston is closed. Therefore, the situation is not so different for the pilot circuit with a KN? I do not know if it make sense? |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by markbacon on 09/02/12 at 16:53:37 What I remember of carb tuning theory is that mixture should be a little richer at idle/off-idle, lean down throughout the mid range, richen slightly again at WOT. At idle and small throttle openings there's not a lot of O2 and fuel molecules bouncing around in a relatively large space. A slightly richer mixture increases the odds of them colliding with enough energy to combust and release more energy to keep the reaction going. Otherwise the odds fall just a bit short and you get difficult to tune idle, flat pickup off idle, and on a trailing throttle a lot more banging and crackling in the exhaust from incomplete combustion. Positioning the pilot jet aperture right at the butterfly promotes it seeing a higher vacuum at idle and off-idle, and a lower one at bigger throttle openings. It sees some of the high vacuum from the engine side of the butterfly at idle/off-idle, and that drops off as the throttle opens and vacuum both sides of the butterfly even out. The standard pilot jet on my 2005 was definitely too lean. Going up one size hot it right - I can't remember whether that's 50 or 52.5. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Charon on 09/02/12 at 18:54:38 Those numbers do not look like O2% to me. They look more like pounds of air per pound of fuel (actually, any unit of mass). 14.7 is nominally correct, varying slightly with the composition of the gasoline. Smaller numbers are richer; larger numbers leaner. Rich mixtures do not burn all the fuel, because the amount of air is inadequate. Lean mixtures do not burn all the air. When I flew Cessna 150/172 airplanes, they had a mixture control. At altitudes below 3000 feet, the mixture was set full rich for takeoff. This is too rich, but is deliberate. The excess fuel does not burn, but it evaporates and absorbs engine heat. The engine is "fuel cooled" during takeoff. Once reaching altitude the throttle is set to the desired RPM, the mixture is slowly leaned until the engine runs rough, then richened slightly. On those aircraft with Exhaust Gas Temperature gauges, they were leaned until the temperature reached maximum, then richened till the temperature dropped 25 degrees. Later, some experimenting was done on airplane engines for electronic ignition and such. It was found that as the mixture was changed, the high temperatures moved. At ideal mixture, cylinder head temperatures were highest. As the mixture leaned, the cylinder head temp dropped and the exhaust temperature rose. Apparently, the leaner mixtures burn more slowly, so are still burning when the exhaust valve opens, allowing more flame to pass the exhaust valve into the exhaust system. Bear in mind, these are air cooled engines running at high power settings, around 2400 rpm. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/03/12 at 03:14:28 Interesting stuff, Charon |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Charon on 09/07/12 at 05:19:40 http://flighttraining.aopa.org/students/solo/special/mixture.html If this works, it is an article on mixture control on airplane engines. It does mention automobile engines, and the information applies to motorcycle engines as well. It mentions the temperatures and burning rates of both lean and rich mixtures. Airplanes are an interesting application, because they are about the only place where there is an operator-controlled mixture adjustment. And unlike automotive use, the engines are usually operated at relatively constant speed and relatively high power output. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Gyrobob on 09/07/12 at 06:43:19 Relatively high power output? Yes, everything is relative. In aircraft engines, even at WOT, they have low power. The best a C150/c172 engine can do is maybe 0.5 hp per cubic inch, and even at that, they are only turning mid 2000 rpm. If one of our bikes was operated in those parameters, we'd see 20 hp at 30 mph,... nowhere near full throttle. I would think an LS650 could run for years constantly at 2500 rpm and 20 hp. With aircraft, though, getting killed is a big deal, and that kind of thing happens with engine failures. That is why they are SOOOOOO detuned,.. understressed,.. loafing along, etc. When they get to altitude, the normally aspirated versions can only put out maybe 60% of their rated hp, as well,... so operating them at full throttle at 8,000 feet is very little strain. How much strain would our 650cc motor see at 12 hp and 2400 rpm? Back to the thread,.... This O2 discussion is really fascinating. I'm looking for a setup like that now. Curiously, the RYCA setup recommended for the carb and EMGO muffler they use seems to be pretty close for normal ops. After having sat for over a year, and having the carb rebuilt and setup per their recommendations, the thing started within 2 seconds of pushing the starter button. On the first few rides, there is no stuttering or popping at all,... just a little ladalaDAladaLAda on deceleration. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Charon on 09/07/12 at 08:04:09 I referenced the article to show effects of lean and rich fuel mixtures. Such information seems hard to come by outside the aviation community. I use the term high power output to refer to operation at power settings of from two-thirds to full power. True, piston airplane engines run at low speeds of around 2400 rpm, but that is to keep propeller tips from going supersonic, and these days for noise reduction. The engines themselves can turn considerably faster, with greater power output. Looking into the airboat community shows that nicely. The boats using direct-drive propellers have either very small propellers or low RPM, while the ones using automotive engines run the engines much faster and use reduction drives for the propellers. The LS650, operating at speeds in the area of 60 mph, is only making about 10 to 12 hp at its 4000 rpm. It is thus operating at about 1/3 to 1/2 power, depending on how much power it is credited with having in the first place. Most automotive and motorcycle engines operate for most of their lives at low power settings indeed. I suspect few would survive high power operations for any significant amount of time unless seriously derated. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Gyrobob on 09/07/12 at 08:36:30 416A63706D6C020 wrote:
Here's a chart to illustrate your point. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh253/Gyrobob_theOriginal/Motorcycle/Miscellaneous/mixturevscylheadtempo1.jpg Also, supersonic prop tips are a consideration for noise abatement, but prop efficiency goes way down when the tips start dragging around shockwaves. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Serowbot on 09/07/12 at 09:19:26 Well,... based on Halvors general findings, I've swapped my #150/52.5 set-up,.. to a #152.5/50... Hoping for better mpg's and no loss at peak HP's.. Initial riding feels very much the same, and still smooth without popping... Will have to do some longer rides with more elevation change to see overall... We're getting a crazy amount of rain here right now... My street was running 4" deep, full width, for two hours yesterday...(somewhere at the end of that flow, there should be a new lake)... :-?... |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Paraquat on 09/07/12 at 18:29:38 4C6568726B76040 wrote:
I did a lot of reading today. No one on the c50 forum knows how to tune by AFRs. Since the C50's electronics are based off GSXR technology I googled GSXR forums. Those guys are saying: 12.2 between 80-100% throttle in 4th gear 12.5-12.8 at idle/13.7-14.0 at cruise/13.0 for WOT 12.5 for WOT 12.8-13.0 And Cobra, who sells the FI2000 fuel controller my bike came with, says 12.8 I was using the AEM UEGO when I was trying to get the VM36 dialed in on my Savage but I was shooting for car air/fuel ratios. It appears these bikes like to be in the 12's. http://www.ronayers.com/ProductDetails/N/7205/SKU/106370 (Because, you know, fuel processos are sold in the Carburetor Tuning section of Ron Ayers) Quote:
and even taht seemed like a chore. I can't get someone to come out and say "This is the target AFR you tune for" BUT... that's a C50. I imagine the Savage isn't far off. --Steve |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 09/08/12 at 01:13:17 Hello, new 170 main + pilot 50. I have had only a short test run. I may adjust numbers later Idle + 3/4ccw =11 Idle + 1/1ccw =10,5 Idle + 1,5 ccw = 10 Cruising 80kmh + 1/1ccw = 12 (+0,5) WOT 18-20 ;D (nothing happend?????) I will try to restrict the air flow with a sock over the KN filter. I will go for another and longer test run. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by verslagen1 on 09/08/12 at 08:54:48 you got the bottom half tuned, try the white spacer mod. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Serowbot on 09/08/12 at 09:14:20 Halvor,.. is your K/N filter oiled?... It sounds like you're just getting an uncontrollable amount of air at WFO... When I tried an open air filter a couple of years ago,.. top end performance went way down for me... I went back to an oiled slip-in K/N in the stock air-box... |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 09/08/12 at 12:32:31 yes oiled. I have a theory about that theres not enough vacume. I tried a ladys nylon sock to restrict the kn, but it made little difference. I then tried to change the kn with the original rubber tube for the air box. THis made difference. At WOT the 02 was 12,5 some seconds before in went directly to 18,5. I will try with a pod filter in the end of the rubber tube. THe big 170 is in and the sudden change to 18,5 might be a result of to low level of fuel in the carb. I am on PRI. I will try to make more vacume and maybe insert the 155 main again later. Nothing happened to the WOT o2 value when going bigger than 155. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 09/09/12 at 02:32:31 Tried to restrict kn filter with tape. Have allso tried with original rubber tube. But it is lean on WOT. The lean condition has a time delay. It feels like theres not enough gas entering the carb. I will open the bottom, place it on pri and see how it flows . Maybe this have been the reason for lean WOT all the time? Cruising and idle o2 is the same for all air filter modifications. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/09/12 at 07:16:43 The lean condition has a time delay. Yea, well,, seems to me that kind of stuff otta be pretty much immediate, since, supposedly, the air fuel mixture is set once the slide reaches the top. That would make me doubt fuel delivery is up to the task., Have you pulled the petcock & looked at the screen filter? |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 09/09/12 at 07:36:09 Thats what I had in mind. Will do now. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/09/12 at 10:28:42 Dont take this the wrong way,, but I hope its kinda nasty.. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 09/09/12 at 11:53:31 I hoped to. But It wasent |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Charon on 09/09/12 at 16:01:45 I have never taken the carburetor apart, so cannot vouch for this. But the picture in the Clymer manual shows a filter in the carburetor itself, apparently located just above the float needle seat. There is no mention that I can find in the text, either, so I have no idea how to get it out. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by verslagen1 on 09/09/12 at 16:59:14 4D666F7C61600E0 wrote:
It comes out with the float valve seat. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/09/12 at 22:28:39 Well,, Halvor,, Id have to do a flow test. Id pull the hose off the carb & put it in a jar & set the petcock to Prime & see how it flows. Then, Id do it again with the cap off the tank., Its not normal to wish for a dirty screen in the tank,.,but it would have been good news here.. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Dave on 09/10/12 at 07:30:47 3E2D3A3B24292F2D2679480 wrote:
It comes out with the float valve seat.[/quote] Well Dang.......Why haven't I heard of this before? :o This tiny little filter could cause a lot of problems if dirty. Here is a link to the parts list.....the filter is # 20. http://www.hondaofflorence.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=432120&category=Motorcycles&make=SUZUKI&year=2005&fveh=10118 |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 09/10/12 at 09:54:02 I took out the drainage and used pri. THe gas flowed through. I doubt theres restrictions somewhere. THere were allso some particles coming out, I do not know where they came from. Maybe from the drainage treads, or if I am lucky, from the needle valve. I will check the bowl level to. I just need to find a plastic tube... :D |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by LANCER on 09/10/12 at 10:09:54 It's not a filter but a screen for larger debris items that may get to the carb if you do not have a proper fuel filter in your fuel line. I've never had any junk show up in that little "filter" SCREEN when a proper fuel filter is used. Quote:
|
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 09/10/12 at 12:03:27 Hello again. I took aout the little filter. It was some particles there, but not enough to stop anything. I allso measured the bowl level and adjusted slightly for a bit higher level. But no big change. I went for a test drive. THe bike runs so well on the lower circuits. It is a pleasure to drive it. Cruising 100kmh gives 12-12,5 o2. Very good. But when I twist the throttle it it climbs fast to 18,5. THe light is red and I do not like it. What can happend with the engine on this lean mix? I do not want to find out. I fillrd the tank full allso. But no difference. I feel that the KN is the problem and I will try to modify the filter with a tube between the carb and the KN. :P |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/10/12 at 12:29:10 If it takes less time for it to go lean when its full than when its low on gas,that would make me look at the cap vent. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Dave on 09/10/12 at 12:49:43 Well this might be a good way to get hurt......but is there any way to watch the level of the fuel in the tube while you are riding? Maybe with a camera? |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/10/12 at 20:19:13 Anybody know what kinda MPG this thing gets ay 70? 40 MPG @ 60 MPH,,lets say.. so, it'll need to pass 1.5 gallons thru the carb in an hour. Thats 6 quarts in 60 minutes, or, a quart every 10 minutes,,& thats at 40 MPG,, @ 60 MPH,, Naaaah.. I cant imagine fuel flow being so restricted that it simply wont keep up, Unless, the cap is messed up. Id pull the hose off the carb & put it into something large, but transparent or translucent & let a full tank start to drain. Let it go for a while, see if it slows.. then, pop the cap & see if it speeds up. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by verslagen1 on 09/10/12 at 21:13:13 163F3228312C5E0 wrote:
Check the cap, that's a good suggestion. but I think the level is a bit high... er low... or ya gotta learn to ride right side up! ;D |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Charon on 09/11/12 at 06:05:59 JOG asked about mpg. The worst my (stock) S40 ever got was about 39 mpg, running somewhere around 70-75 into the wind on I-80 in Nebraska. I was westbound, so was going slightly uphill (averages about 9 feet per mile) as well. That comes to roughly 2 gallons per hour, which also translates to about 22 horsepower. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Paraquat on 09/11/12 at 06:16:57 There's your problem... The carb is upside down. --Steve |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by bill67 on 09/11/12 at 06:25:41 436861726F6E000 wrote:
So how much horsepower were you making when you ran down hill. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Charon on 09/11/12 at 07:04:06 212A2F2F7574430 wrote:
So how much horsepower were you making when you ran down hill.[/quote] I was making none. The engine on the motorcycle was making enough to propel me and it at the speed at which I desired to travel. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Dave on 09/11/12 at 07:53:29 775C55465B5A340 wrote:
When I was doing the research on the stock and Raptor petcock, I was surprised to find that the flow rate on PRIME is less than in the ON or RES positions. The flow rates in minutes and seconds to drain a gallon were: Stock Petcock: ON 2:34, RES 2:24, PR 3:25 Raptor Petcock: ON 2.15, RES 2:15 This was done with the tank nearly full, and I put a vacuum pump on the diaprhagm when checking the original petcock in the ON and RES positions - but not when checking the PRIME position. At the time I was not sure why the PRIME was slower - but I now know it is because in the PRIME position the petcock moves a little plunger over and it opens the diaphragm mechanically - but it doesn't open it as far as the diaphragm does when it is operated with a vacuum pump.....I am not sure how far the diaphragm is open during actual engine operation. In the PRIME postion - the flow rate is 1 gallon in 3 minutes 25 seconds......or about 17 gallons per hour. I found the following for fuel consumption per HP on the internet: BSFC The brake specific fuel consumption of an engine depends on many factors including thermal efficiency, mechanical efficiency and air to fuel ratios. Most piston engines have a BSFC of between 0.5 and 0.55 lbs. of fuel per hp per hour at maximum power, set fairly rich with AFRs between 12 and 13 to 1. IF our engine is 30 HP and I do this: 30 x 0.5 = 15 gallons per hour. 30 x 0.55 = 16.5 gallons per hour. Now I have not done any tests to see what the flow rate through the carb is for the needle and seat....but it sounds like the prime position may not provide enough fuel flow for an engine making full HP when you add in some flow restriction for the needle and seat and the little filter on top of it? (This is assuming the vacuum line is unhooked while in the prime position and the diaphragm is not opening more than the little plunger allows). |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by verslagen1 on 09/11/12 at 08:26:33 assuming 50 mpg and going 75, you consume 1.5 gals right? |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Charon on 09/11/12 at 08:31:32 Dave, I think there might be an error in your calculations. You multiplied 30 bhp-hr times .5 lb/bhp/hr for a result of 15, but that should have been lbs instead of gallons. Gasoline weighs approximately 6 lbs/gallon. 15 lbs of gasoline is about 2.5 gallons. I have a book about the Nebraska Tractor Test lab, including hundreds of reports of fuel consumption of tractors. The approximate median of those results (for gasoline tractors) is around 11 hp-hrs/gallon, so I used that in coming up with 22 hp at 2 gph. As information, those tests were run with the tractors exerting maximum pull - in short, at wide-open throttle. Gasoline engines lose efficiency rapidly at less than full throttle, because they have to do a lot of work pulling mixture in past the restriction of the throttle butterfly. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Dave on 09/11/12 at 08:41:39 604B42514C4D230 wrote:
Oooops....your right. I did use gallons instead of pounds. Glad you could catch my error. So if we used 15.0 pounds per hour, and gasoline weighs about 6.073 pounds per gallon......that would be about 2.47 gallons per hour at full throttle. That matches your numbers pretty close, and is way below what the petcock can flow in any position. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/11/12 at 08:53:41 I really like where this just went, but, this is Halvors tuning thread. Charon, I think what ytou were talking about is interesting enough to expound a bit, & the Hp/Hours thing,, Ive never seen that, another cool topic, Would anyone want to fire up a new thread so we can follow these rabbit trai8ls a while? I did not know Prime had a lower flow rate. But, 50 MPG at 75 MPH or 40 MPG at 60 MPH, 1.5 gallons/hour = 6 quarts in 60 minutes= 1 quart every 10 minutes.THats a cup every 2.5 minutes. Thats a trickle, not flow, so, if the bike is going lean, surely its not because the petcock isnt delivering. IF its the cap vent, then it would show up quickly with a full tank, less so with a near empty one. I would ride to where I could run at speed, shut it off, pop the cap, put it back on & GO, hit top speed. If it goes lean, its not a delivery problem, unless the needle/seat/float stuff just arent playing fair. Shut off bike & fuel & coast to a stop, measure what comes outta the bowl. Tho, I would expect it to coff & sputter like its outta gas more than just go lean if theres just not enough in the bowl. How is it that a carb is jetted & provides a nice Air/Fuel mix at 40 & just cant keep the mix rich enough for 70 MPH? Air flow increases thru the venturi as the slide climbs outta the way, the needle lifts out of the way,, & Dave said 30 x 0.5 = 15 gallons per hour. & I said,, Wow,, Ill just hafta circle the gas pump..Thats 1.5 gallons every 6 minutes,, ;D ;D Get to doin math & get yer head all full of numbers & mess up on the Units,, easy to do,, |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 09/11/12 at 09:03:41 !! THe rubber side is up? |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Dave on 09/11/12 at 09:27:24 JOG....Well I do believe the petcock flow was still related to Halvors tuning thread, as I am trying to figure out why it is going lean at speed. Obviously there is a fuel restriction issue somewhere.....or a source of air that does not show up at lower throttle settings. Can air bleed in through a faulty slide diaphragm or through the TEV (Throttle Enrichement Valve). Or perhaps the O2 sensor is just not accurate......and it is doing something weird when the bike is actually starting to work and make some heat in the exhaust. Does the bike start to act lean.....or is it just the O2 sensor and meter showing that it is going lean? |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/11/12 at 10:16:51 59626F7869657E78636B66790A0 wrote:
Can air bleed in through a faulty slide diaphragm If that was the case, the slide wouldnt go up, because the vacuum would bleed thru. or through the TEV (Throttle Enrichement Valve). Well,, thats a hekkuvan idea, IDK, But, it would be the first one to bust I think. Or perhaps the O2 sensor is just not accurate......and it is doing something weird when the bike is actually starting to work and make some heat in the exhaust. Does the bike start to act lean.....or is it just the O2 sensor and meter showing that it is going lean?[/ & That may be the best question asked yet,, Time to run it up & hold it in that REported Lean condition , kill it , coast down & look at the plug? |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Charon on 09/11/12 at 16:38:58 Something else to consider. You have direct control over the throttle butterfly. You have no control over the slide throttle itself, which is controlled by airflow through the venturi. When you open the butterfly airflow through the venturi increases, but the slide probably will not open completely until engine speed increases. Perhaps it isn't opening completely until you approach top speed and maximum venturi airflow, and that might be the reason for the "delay" in going lean. Just a thought - I don't know whether it is correct. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 09/23/12 at 11:09:40 New test today. No result. .... I tried with the rubber tube plus a 90 deg bend (Ř60,3 mm fits good) between KN filter and the engine. THis should have restricted the air flow, but the results was the same as before Cruising 80kmh + 3/4ccw = 11,5 WOT 19 I am in doubt what to do. It is the 1/2 to WOT thats the problem. I might go back to smaller jets and stock air box. Increasing main jets have not helped on the O2 value for 1/2 to 1/1 throttle. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/23/12 at 11:18:23 I think it would be interesting to put a T in the vac line to the petcock a gauge in it with a hose long enough to get the gauge up on the bars so vacuum at high speeds can be seen, to know what vacuum the petcock is getting at 70. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by rfw2003 on 09/24/12 at 11:34:54 Halvor, isn't that just a narrow band Lambada sensor/guage. If so then it's gonna be awful hard to dial in the jetting with that as narrow band sensors aren't really accurate enough to give you the readings you need. They are more useful to just telling you that you are either rich or lean as compared to a lambada of 1, or in the case of gasoline burning engine a 14.7:1 ratio. You really need a wide band sensor and gauge/controller to do what your trying to do. R.F. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 09/24/12 at 12:08:28 You might be right about that. I do not know what kind it is. But the numbers make sense. When breaking on the motor it leans out. And it pops excactly on o2=20. But the measurements might be wrong? But it looks very right when driving. I tried with 180 main for fun. I did not expect results. It went to lean very fast again. I tried to losen the tank cap. I though I had solved it becauce it did not go to lean for a kilometer or so. I was riding and shouting solved solved.... But down a steep hill it started to go to lean again. After that it was like before. I seems lik bigger main jets results in faster lean conditions. I drive on pri. But I would like to try the raptor??? |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by rfw2003 on 09/24/12 at 12:31:32 An easy way to tell, is that most wide band o2 sensors have 6 wires on them. Less then that it's a narrow band unit. R.F. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 07/09/13 at 03:48:16 Finally finished. To make a long story short: I found out that my sensor shows high o2 on both rich and lean conditions. I found out by leaning out the engine downhill. I have tried several jets between 150 and 300. THeese are the sizes where the engine will not run clean anymoore. Another thing I learned is that afterfire can make the sensor wrong. A ignition switch off sets the sensor back to normal. I think it resets. I tuned after the sensor and what resulted in highes speed. THe sensor show optimum mix up to 75 mph with the 180 jet. After that, WOT, it shows high o2 (19). I suspect my home made exhaust is not optimal? With jets bigger or smaller the high 02 conditions were reached at lower speeds. Between 50 and 70 MPH. I switched to raptor petcoc, vm36 carb (not nesessary). I ended up with 180main and 20 pilot (VM JETTING). It runs quite good. 100 MPH and have wery good bottom end. I can make small wheelies, and it is crazy fun to drive fast in curves. What can be done now? I might try a bigger muffle to try if it is more power around the WOT? And if the high 02 conditions can be avoided? Maybee it can not run with low o2 at WOT? I have an Enfiled muffler from ebay-india. An open short bottle muffle. I will put in a baffle and try if it is silent enough, and see how it runs. It will provide better breathing, but it must not wear out my eardrums. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Dave on 07/09/13 at 07:03:11 Halvor: I used an oxygen sensor to set up my VM36, and it sounds like we ended up with our jetting being really close. Mu sensor acted very well, and gave consistent readings and made the jetting go really well. For a while I was experiencing a lean condition when I opened up the throttle at normal crusing speeds and the engine was accelerating - but the mixture was good at low and wide open throttle settings. If I was in high gear and opened up the throttle fully the 195 main provided a steady consistent reading and it was at a great ratio for power. The ultimate cure to the lean condition while rolling on the throttle was to drop the clip on the slide needle. I ended jup dropping it twice to get the mixture to be ideal. My bike ran the best with a 195 main jet, 20 pilot jet, and the needle set 2 notches below the middle notch. I have not yet gone 100mph....but I bet it will. I get 58mpg when riding at highway speeds up to 65mph. I really like the way the O2 sensor took the guess work out of the process. The only trouble I have with my O2 sensor is that it was made for the inside of a car, and it is impossible to read in direct sunlight. I had to do my jetting in the evenings as the sun was going down or on cloudy days. NOTE: The jets listed are for the Mikuni VM36 carb, and not the stock LS650 carb. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 07/09/13 at 08:56:33 Interesting. Do you have stock header and dyna? Drag pipe? Have you tried top speed with a smaller jet without looking at the o2? I have kn airfilter and an opened dyna muffler. Two interesting links http://www.mikuni.com/pdf/vmmanual.pdf http://www.braigasen.com/Mikuni_jetting_chart_four_stroke.htm Braigasen :) says 185 main. I think most end up with 180-185? 100mph is scary on this bike. It feels like a space rocket without control, and do not feel safe. I did 90 mph ut a steep hill. :) :) Fun fun. But curves is most fun. My bike is lowered and stiffer. Big improvement. Halvor (Norway) |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by strang on 07/09/13 at 16:35:45 can someone outline what parts to buy and where to buy them? how exactly do you install one of these? |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by mjs3790225 on 07/09/13 at 16:40:21 Great updates on this thread! Nice work out there. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/09/13 at 17:55:46 767177646B62050 wrote:
iirc, its all broken down early in the thread,, but, i didnt go look, |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by strang on 07/10/13 at 04:51:14 Just checking this is the procedure: So to install one of these on your bike you need - the o2 sensor itself (6 wires as that is a wide band) - the o2 gauge Then you drill a hole in your muffler, weld on a nut with a thread that matches the sensor, then screw the sensor into your muffler. Then connect up wires from sensor to gauge. Is this the deal? Does it make a difference where you put the sensor? i.e. distance from header? Are any makes recommended? Are they all basically generic? |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Dave on 07/10/13 at 05:24:39 143D302A332E5C0 wrote:
I have the stock header and a muffler I made myself. I have a large UNI foam clamp on filter (4"dia. x 10" long). I have not ever tried top speed......82mph is the fastest I have gone so far and it was still pulling strong when I slowed down. Conditions have not been right for me to do a high speed run...too much headwind or too much traffic. My jetting method was to first establish the main jet by making full throttle acceleration runs and putting in a main jet that provided a mixture of around 12.6 air/fuel. Then I put in a pilot jet that would allow the proper idle mixture at 1.5 - 2 turns out on the air screw. Then the mid range and partial throttle settings were adjusted to provide a mixture of around 13:1 by moving the slide needle clip. My O2 gauge is a narrow band 2 wire oxygen sensor and the narrow band is fine for setting up a gasoline carb. It would not work with alcohol or nitromethane fuels or very rich or lean mixtures. The narrow band sensors are far cheaper than the wide band ones. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Dave on 07/10/13 at 06:02:46 383F392A252C4B0 wrote:
Here is the thread to my O2 sensor install for the stock carb, I have not documented the process for the Mikuni VM36. I am listing this link as an additional resource....not to take away from what Halvors has done. I installed my sensor closer to the head and I did this in a pipe that I only install while I am testing....it is not a permanent installation. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1348491882/0 You can buy a cheap narrow band guage for $ 50 or less, a narrow band O2 sensor for $ 10, and a weld in bung for $ 10 or so....add some shipping costs and you will end up with about $ 100 in a working narow band sensor. http://www.ebay.com/itm/52mm-BLACK-7-COLOR-LED-AIR-FUEL-AFR-RATIO-GAUGE-METER-/350821018767?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item51ae8fec8f&vxp=mtr Working Wide Band kits are around $ 300 with sensor and you still need to buy the part to weld into your exhaust. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Auto-Meter-3378-Sport-Comp-Wide-Band-Air-Fuel-Ratio-Kit-2-1-16-in-/130944996706?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e7cee1562&vxp=mtr |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by verslagen1 on 07/10/13 at 07:19:21 I made a short Tee section for the O2 port that goes in between the muffler and header. It's just long enough to push the front mounting bolt of the muff to the back hole of the bracket. This allows me to install it temporarily on any muffler. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/10/13 at 08:08:28 working in a body shop, some guys had one specialty tool, someone else had a different one, no one had them all, we just loaned them back & forth, so no one had yo buy all of them,, this is a buy it, use it, park it tool. you guys connect the dots,, |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Dave on 07/10/13 at 10:14:06 415E585F42457444744C5E52192B0 wrote:
I bought my O2 meter and sensor about 25 years ago.....and I have used it 3 times. I used it the first time when setting up Webers on a sports car, then just last year I used it on a Savage, the again this year when I changed to the Mikuni VM36. Once you have the carb jetted properly you don't need it again.....till you make some other major change. I probably have abot $ 25 invested for each time I used it.....and the ability to know what is going on was worth the price of admission to me. I would have eventually gotten the right jets by trial and error....eventually! |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by paulmarshall on 07/10/13 at 16:04:15 I find this topic very interesting. Particularly for those of us with different piston sizes and other mods where your basic tuning might not apply. Forgive me if this sounds silly but does the sensor interfere with the exhaust flow? And once fuel/air is setup will it need to monitored? or can the sensor be removed and forgotten? |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/10/13 at 16:55:01 4B5A4E57565A4948535A57573B0 wrote:
yep, as stated above, you can mount the sensor in a short section, slap it between header & muffler, do the tuning, pull it, ride |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by paulmarshall on 07/10/13 at 17:05:31 So it would pay for a group to put $$ together to buy one and send it around those who paid. Or rent it out. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/10/13 at 17:15:46 you, sir, have connected the dots,, if i had one gathering dust, id ask for a deposit & freight, but, the "renter" has to trust to get the deposit back,, it all boils down to trust & trust-worthiness. i guess a 3rd party could hold the deposit, one sufficient to "inspire" the return of the tool. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 07/18/13 at 14:41:34 I find it interesting to watch the numbers and have it permanently. It looks like the weather have a quite big effect on the numbers (combustion) :) =o2 nerd :D :D :D?? |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Super Thumper on 07/28/13 at 11:12:07 My bike is a 2001 LS650 with a LOT of performance work done recently. I am still breaking it in (currently has 600 miles). I have an Air/Fuel Ratio gauge on it and am fine tuning the carb jetting but I ran out of jet sizes and had to order more. I started with a 180 main jet, 20 pilot jet, a Q5 needle jet and a 6FJ6 needle. The A/F gauge indicated it was VERY rich down low off the gauge below 10.0 to 1! Switched to the 15 pilot jet and it is still very rich at (10.5 to 1), still rich at mid range even with the jet needle clip on the top notch! ( 12.8 to 1) and so lean up at the top end it was off the gauge way over 20 to 1 !! I will switch to a 200 main jet and see what the gauge indicates but I expect it to still be near 20 to 1. When my new jets arrive I will post more details to come on the engine build along with details including final jet sizes and A/F numbers on this Mikuni VM36 carb and how to install a A/F gauge on your bike for less than $75.00!! Performance build sheet: 97mm Carbide High Compression (10.5 to 1) Big Bore Kit Ported cylinder head Web Stage III cam Mikuni VM36 racing carb UFO, Torque Wing and Dial-A-jet installed on the carb Custom muffler, stock head pipe. Barnett High Performance clutch Chain drive conversion 2.53 ratio (OEM is around 2.95) Power is astounding even with the jetting this far off! At 3400 RPM I am doing 60 MPH at 1/8 throttle! YES, that is correct....1/8 throttle! Averaging 50 MPG with this poor jetting! |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/28/13 at 12:41:10 Averaging 50 MPG with this poor jetting! Dont worry,, YOull be able to get it down substantially,, |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by paulmarshall on 07/28/13 at 12:54:48 I will be interested in seeing the info you provide. I too have done the 97mm piston and will be replacing the carb with a TM36-68. Can I say that I replaced the stock header with a larger diameter before the piston upgrade and it sounded and performed better. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 08/17/13 at 11:22:15 Do you have the narrow band sensor? One wire? I found out that mine showed high o2 at both lean and rich. Try to lean it out down hill, constant trottle, and look wich way the numbers changes. I was so confused before, that I found the biggest and smallest main jet wher the engine stumbled on WOT. 150 - 280. Now I ended up on 180-20 with my vm36. It runs like a rocket now. If I should do anything it should be the cluch springs. It slips a bit when accelerating. But I doubt I will do more on the engine. THis bike is scary as hell in 100. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/17/13 at 12:02:34 BE aware! YOu already have a time bomb in your clutch. The little paddle that pushes the throwout rod into the pack? Just a mashed up load of powder,, They break, its not all the time, but its far from Uncommon, have one machined out of steel, then do the springs, |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 08/17/13 at 13:15:00 ok. I will remember that, and the chain tensioner. What else can happen? |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Super Thumper on 08/17/13 at 13:28:41 I have an 02 gauge on my bike. When it is indicating any number such as 20.0 (maximum range), 10.0 (Minimum range) or anything in between the number displayed on your 02 gauge means a RATIO of that number to one and NOT say 20%. Example: the gauge indicates 14.7 this means the ratio of air to fuel by weight is 14.7 to 1 and not 14.7%. Here is a link for a more detailed description of air fuel ratios: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-fuel_ratio The 02 meter mounted on the bike helps me get the carb dialed in very close to optimal then I do all my fine tuning on a dyno. This gets the mixture perfectly dialed in every time. takes about 1-2 hours of dyno time at $85.00 an hour at the local Harley dealer. The reason I have an 02 meter permanently installed on my bike is I play with different cam profiles, mufflers and carbs all the time. The 02 gauge lets me know if the mixture is getting off to much and I need to re-jet. FYI...I have a highly modified engine and the jets I had to order to get this carb even close to right have cost me more than the original price of the carb. My A/F ratio is currently running at 13/1 at 1/4 throttle cruise, 10.3 at idle and off the gauge over 20/1 at WOT! I am getting 60+ mpg and I need to order more jets, particularly needle jets...these cost almost $20.00 each. My engine is a 97mm high comp motor with a high lift web cam, ported cylinder head, stock head pipe and custom muffler. main Jet: 210 needle jet: Q0 Pilot jet: 10.0 UFO Torque wing The guy at the Harley dealer freaked out when he saw I had a 210 main jet in this engine...he says he doesn't use jets that large on 110 HP Harley's....I told him this ain't no Harley...this is a SUPER THUMPER!! When I am done with the dyno I will post all the results including final jetting. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by paulmarshall on 08/17/13 at 13:40:21 What I find interesting is that with all the mods that are going on the stock header pipe is being forgotten. I reckon this has to be one of the most restricting parts on the Savage. Replacing the stock header with a larger free flowing header was my first mod, and this alone improved performance and sound. Spending $$$ on pistons,cams,carbs etc is great but you are not getting 100% performance with a restricted header. People want better sound and put mufflers on but the sound is also restricted by the restricted header. When I replaced my header I ran the stock muffler and it sounded heaps deeper. Of course now I have replaced the muffler and a number of other things, which has left me with a nice deep thump. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/17/13 at 14:48:09 1F363B213825570 wrote:
You handle those & youre golden,, OHH, By the way,, I went with the Cam & Supertrapp & I thot I was real clever,, I shimmed my clutch springs,, my little paddle broke, Took out the chain guide the tensioner is attached to. Thankfully it was at less than 20 MPH,, |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Super Thumper on 08/17/13 at 14:54:27 The reason I left the stock head pipe on is I want to jet this engine for a stock head pipe which is what most folks will have when they buy a Big Bore Kit. More jetting will come when I put a big bore header pipe on it...FYI with the stock head pipe this engine pulls very hard all the way to 6500 rpm where I stop...I won't over rev this engine. The most surprising thing is the low and mid range torque this engine has which is just unbelievable and is the major contributing factor to the high fuel economy. This engine is very lean on the top end and I won't keep it there for more than a few seconds until I get the top 1/4 throttle jetted in. Right now it has topped out at 95 mph and when the jetting is right I expect something over 100 mph. Right now top gear roll on is better than my friends BMW R100 RS and a 30 mph to 70 mph roll on in any gear I leave him behind. More to come when the jetting is done...take the seat off, take the tank off, take the carb off, take the carb apart, put it all back together again and go for a ride...done this about 12 times so far getting the carb jetting where it is now and still more to do :o I added this later: I have a Barnett High Performance clutch in this bike...the stock clutch couldn't handle the power but the Barnett does!! More info added Sunday morning: I have listed the parts I am using for my 02 setup so you folks can do it yourself...greatly helps tuning. The 02 gauge does not come with amounting cup or housing so I bought a cheap plastic one from Amazon and clamped it to my handlebars with a couple of screw clamps....works fine but looks jury rigged,,,which I guess it is! 02 gauge: FYI...this gauge has a blue LED display which is a little difficult to read in direct sunlight but I couldn't find a better price anywhere! http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008P6DOIG/ref=oh_details_o07_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 02 sensor: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009IK7YC/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1 02 sensor bung: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CODCOK/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 02 gauge mounting cup: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00957YUN2/ref=oh_details_o06_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 The total cost was around $70.00 including shipping. I made a custom muffler out of 2 1/2" exhaust pipe and a reducer from Auto Zone and welded the 02 bung in the muffler just behind the clamp and used a solid steel spiral inner core from Dennis Kirk but they don't carry them anymore...here is a link to another place that sells them: http://www.powersportjunkie.com/product-p/PSJINT-076295.htm This muffler has a nice tone...not the harsh metallic edge most other mufflers have. I use this muffler for my carb tuning to get the jetting close and then fine tune it on the Harley dealer's dyno. I tried to find the post with the pics I took of this muffler but can't seem to find it. Happy tuning!! :) |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/17/13 at 14:56:37 http://https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRGiG5GDy9PdNOT_sL6EGf4pbsYred_2g3-CYjGdFRrJzxXP6YJ Man I wanted one of those.,., |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Super Thumper on 08/18/13 at 07:46:32 My friend's BMW R100RS is a 93 model he got from a seller in Canada. The speedo display is in Kilometers. It has the mono-shock rear suspension and handles MUCH better than my old 1975 R90 did. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 08/18/13 at 09:16:58 ""My A/F ratio is currently running at 13/1 at 1/4 throttle cruise, 10.3 at idle and off the gauge over 20/1 at WOT!"" Interesting I have the same numbers. It is allways around 20 at WOT. I started to see what speeds I could reach before 17,5 (red color starts). At idle it is 10-11-depending on the mix screw. And about the same as you have when crusing. My setting main Jet: 180 Pilot jet: 20 It is not easy to find out whats going on on WOT. When I try a very big jet it still shows around 20?? I have found that a bit smaller jet than usual is best when measuring top speed. What I have found helpful is observing the heat from the engine after racing. THe original settings results in a very hot engine. I belive it is not to lean as long as the engine is significant cooler than this. I will not modify the header becauce I am afraid I will loose bottom end power? THats meaning with this bike. Want high revs? Buy a 600R.. I got good results with my new Enfield muffler- see under forum-tech-part. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by paulmarshall on 08/18/13 at 12:25:39 [I will not modify the header becauce I am afraid I will loose bottom end power? THats meaning with this bike. Want high revs? Buy a 600R.. ] If you go too big then you may run the risk of losing performance which is why experts advise not go go bigger than 1.5 for the Savage. I have done it and I assure you their is no loss of bottom or top end power.On the contrary actually. ;) |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 08/18/13 at 12:34:53 Interesting. Maybee I will make my own header. Or extract the inner tube. I have thought about it and if it is cut loose maybee it can be forced out. Weld a fastener and pull it out with a winch? ;D |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by paulmarshall on 08/18/13 at 12:40:00 I wanted mine to be the same size as the outer stock header but I was told by the manufacturer the same thing about losing performance. It is important not to go larger than 1.5 . The smallest increase from 1.5 can impact on performance. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by paulmarshall on 08/18/13 at 12:59:42 2A343D313F302C3736580 wrote:
Where did you purchase the Barnett HPC? |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by paulmarshall on 08/18/13 at 13:12:48 5342564F4E4251504B424F4F230 wrote:
Where did you purchase the Barnett HPC?[/quote] Are these the right parts? Do I need the plates and springs or just the springs? http://www.barnettclutches.com/940/suzuki/0/0/1987-suzuki-ls-650f.html |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by LANCER on 08/18/13 at 20:33:09 3A2B3F26272B3839222B26264A0 wrote:
Yep, a 1/8th" change in the header ID makes a significant difference. The small change in diameter of the tube increases volume dramatically, and that causes the big performance changes. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Super Thumper on 08/19/13 at 08:52:31 Paul Marshall....those are the correct parts for the Savage clutch and are the ones I am using. Note that there are two different part numbers for the Kevlar friction plates. One has a larger inside diameter and this is the one that fits over the clutch wave washer. The other 5 have a smaller inside diameter. Here is a link to the clutch diagram for you: http://www.cheapcycleparts.com/oem-parts/suzuki/1997/ls650p-savage-v/clutch The wave washer is part #10 in the diagram. I have done several of these Barnett clutches and have NEVER replaced the OEM steel clutch drive plates. I use a rubber sanding block with 320 grit sandpaper and rough up the surface just a little bit. This is necessary because these plates get polished very smooth during normal operation and were most likely slipping a bit even if you didn't notice any clutch slippage with the OEM clutch. BE CAREFUL...don't overdo it with the sandpaper...use a light touch when sanding with the block...you do not want to remove any material from the steel plate surface just rough it up a little bit until it no longer is shiny..the rough surface will give your new Kevlar clutch plates something to grab on to. I did this on my own 97mm Super Thumper and it does NOT slip no matter how hard I try and I did try just to make sure I could re-use the OEM steel drive plates without any slippage issues. I have over 1,000 miles on the new clutch and so far still no slippage with the re-used OEM drive plates with this big 97mm motor. The only time I would recommend replacing the steel plates is if they are worn so thin they are out of spec. I don't have the specs available while I am writing this reply...maybe someone has them and can post them for us :) I am currently out of stock on them but will have some more of these Barnett clutches in stock at the end of September. I am still hoping Lancer will got those Big Bore exhaust pipes made so we can try them out. :) |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/19/13 at 09:23:09 If I was gonna use sandpaper on them, Id work the paper to make the lines go from outside edge to center, not around. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by paulmarshall on 08/19/13 at 12:35:08 Thanks Super Thumper. I am kicking myself because I had the clutch replaced a couple of months ago with a OEM clutch with 10% stronger springs.This was before I decided to put the 97mm in.Of course now it slips in top when I open the throttle. I feel abit stupid as I wasted money but in saying that the steel plates will be like new.(Should I still sand paper them?) I wonder if Dave is experiencing clutch issues with his mods. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Dave on 08/19/13 at 12:50:59 2736223B3A3625243F363B3B570 wrote:
I am not having any problems with my clutch. I holds just fine and under full throttle acceleration through the gears it grabs between shifts and never slips under application of throttle. I anticipated that I might have problems and I bought some EBC springs that are listed as being 10% stronger......but I have not put them in. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by paulmarshall on 08/19/13 at 12:54:46 58636E7968647F79626A67780B0 wrote:
I am not having any problems with my clutch. I holds just fine and under full throttle acceleration through the gears it grabs between shifts and never slips under application of throttle. I anticipated that I might have problems and I bought some EBC springs that are listed as being 10% stronger......but I have not put them in. [/quote] Thats interesting. Would the difference between the 95mm and the 97mm be enough to push the clutch over its limit? |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Super Thumper on 08/20/13 at 07:41:42 It appears that the stronger clutch springs and the Kevlar friction plates that don't fade when they get hot are making all the difference in the world to clutch performance on our Savages. The metal plates not so...the OEM plates are fine even when worn a little....this is good...saves us some $$$ since we don't have to buy the metal plates as often! In the future when my clutch is getting worn out I will just replace the Kevlar friction plates and see if the metal plates and Barnett springs will still hold up. Those Barnett springs are about $14.95 for a set of 4 and I would highly recommend anyone change their OEM springs out even before your clutch starts to slip....might make those OEM friction plates last longer before needing replacement. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 08/28/13 at 06:14:05 I changed sensor today. The ceramic internal in the old was in several pieces. I got some very good measurements with the new sensor. I think my old measurements was wrong becauce of the sensor. I allways got hughe numbers on WOT before. Maybe all the testing had destroyed it. All the backfires and black smoking etc etc. It showed 10,5 on idle 11-12 on cruising and 12-14 on WOT. On sudden opening the throttle (VM 36), I had 1/2 secound 18, then 2-3 secounds around 15, before stabilizing on 12-14. I guess it is the lack of acceleration pump on the vm. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Dave on 08/28/13 at 07:04:43 I get the same slightly lean condition as you open the throttle slide.....and it does stabilize once the vacuum catches up and becomes steady state. I do agree that the lack of an accelerator pump is the issue, and that it is normal for a carb to be slightly lean just after the throttle is opened. It does run great however, and I don't see any reason to overcompensate by jetting any richer or changing carbs to one with an accelerator pump. |
|
Title: Re: Halvors O2 tuning Post by Halvor on 08/28/13 at 08:41:53 I agree. It is just the facination about exactly monitor whats going on and learn more about the combustion. After this jetting-process, I have learned a lot. I am able to hear when it is lean or rich. And feel the heat from the engine to determine rich/lean conditions. A bit lean conditions feels like the engine is burning, rich - thumping. When you are between those stages - go down one size and enter the zone of burning, but not far from thumping. THats optimum. I am back to feelings again, but it is good to confirm the jetting with the O2 meter. 8-);D |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |