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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Clutch slip cure. /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1347198894 Message started by buffyporson on 09/09/12 at 06:54:53 |
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Title: Clutch slip cure. Post by buffyporson on 09/09/12 at 06:54:53 I have tried numerous ways to stop clutch slip on my Savage. Stronger springs, 'performance' plates, washers under springs etc. I finally think I have found something which works long term. I placed an additional plain (not friction) clutch plate in the basket. This results in a slightly thicker clutch pack which pre-tensions the springs more when everything is assembled. I put the extra plate between the inner most friction plate and the pressure disc. Shouldn't really matter where it goes though as long as it has a friction disc on one side. Results in a slightly heavy clutch action but really makes a difference during hard acceleration. I found a bunch of plain clutch plates on ebay. You only need one and they never wear out. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by drums1 on 09/09/12 at 11:47:21 Or wear out. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by Cavi Mike on 09/09/12 at 11:50:09 What oil are you using? |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by Gyrobob on 09/09/12 at 12:16:57 1E3C2B34103436385D0 wrote:
A critically important question, eh? |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by Paraquat on 09/09/12 at 13:02:29 It's a wet clutch. The wrong oil could lead to slippage. If that junk gets embedded in the friction plates it's gonna take some sanding to get it off, if you can at all. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/09/12 at 22:42:28 556B607D707D70120 wrote:
A critically important question, eh?[/quote] Absolutely critical question., |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by ToesNose on 09/10/12 at 04:07:24 Who brought up oil?! (looks at Mike and grins) |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by LANCER on 09/10/12 at 04:09:04 7C6365627F7849794971636F24160 wrote:
A critically important question, eh?[/quote] Absolutely critical question., [/quote] YEP |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by buffyporson on 09/11/12 at 04:59:23 I started using cheap Walmart brand 20/50 - clutch slipped. Changed to Shell Diesel Rottela - clutch still slipped. Changed back to Walmart brand. I have also tried using the different length clutch push rods which also made no difference provided the clutch cable was adjusted correctly. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by rfw2003 on 09/11/12 at 05:05:25 2C3B2828373E213C3D21204E0 wrote:
The oil is def an issue here. Depending on how long you ran that CAR oil in your bike will decide on what needs to be done. If it wasn't very long several flushes with a non-friction modifier oil will wash all that crap outta your clutch. Now if you have been running it for awhile, you will have to take apart the clutch and do some sanding to get the crap off of the plates. Another thing about the oil you have been using, it doesn't have near enough of the high pressure additives to keep your Savage's motor alive. R.F. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by Cavi Mike on 09/11/12 at 05:18:26 302734342B223D20213D3C520 wrote:
What ever for? Why would anyone put that crap in anything they own? |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by Gyrobob on 09/11/12 at 05:34:18 The Walmart oil is your problem. As the others have mentioned, it has bad stuff in it that makes your clutch slip, and not enough of the good stuff in it to keep the Savage motor from wearing rapidly. Be careful with that seefoam stuff, if for no other reason than bill recommending it. You will either have to take the clutch plates out and lightly sand them, or use correct oil (Rotella T6) for a few oil changes to get the clutch back to normal. None of your "cures" (springs, plates, washers) will work until you get the friction modifier crap from the cheapo Walmart oil off the plates. You are wasting ALL of your time and money trying to solve the problem mechanically. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by Charon on 09/11/12 at 05:55:37 Charon hasn't lost his mind and started talking to himself --- there was a Bill "seafoam" trolling episode here that was deleted. :( Sorry I didn't get here sooner to nip it in the bud. Oldfeller. Before you waste your money on Seafoam, find out what is in it by entering some terms like "seafoam msds" into your favorite search engine. You will get results telling you it contains about half naptha (lighter fluid), about a third pale oil (20w 2-stroke oil), and about a sixth isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol. Which of those ingredients do you think will help clean a clutch? And remember as soon as the oil warms up the naptha and alcohol will evaporate out. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by Charon on 09/11/12 at 06:08:12 To be blunt, it did absolutely nothing except raise costs. That, to me, makes it worse than useless, because it costs money (about half a dollar per ounce) to do nothing at all. And by the way, when I used it and reported the non-results, Bill told me I must have used it wrong. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by Charon on 09/11/12 at 06:59:28 Bill, all you are doing is trying to start an argument. Let's look at another thought. Seafoam says it is to be used at 1.5 ounces of Seafoam per quart of oil in a crankcase. It contains about half naptha, which is pretty much the same as gasoline. Another thread lately, regarding a question about changing oil, brought forth the issue of fuel contamination in lubricating oil. The S40 contains about 2.5 quarts, 80 ounces, of oil. Adding about four ounces of Seafoam is the same as adding two ounces of gasoline to the oil, and results in effectively contaminating the crankcase oil with 2.5% gasoline. Anyone care to speculate about the results on oil viscosity? |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by Gyrobob on 09/11/12 at 08:43:13 Seafoam, Rislone, MMO, Berryman's Chemtool, etc., are nothing but types of solvents. No miracle cures for anything. If you need a solvent, use one. Otherwise, especially in crankcases, use really good oil and leave it alone. For our bikes, that means Rotella T or T6. BTW, my fav is Berryman's Chemtool. That is a STRONG solvent. I would never put it in a crankcase. It is useful as a general shop item. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by Gyrobob on 09/11/12 at 08:45:28 Curiously, a common trick in extremely cold climates is to put some gasoline in the crankcase just before shutting down an aircraft engine. Then, the next morning, the oil will be thin enough to allow the starter to crank the engine over, and, after warm up, will just evaporate off as the oil gets hot. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by Gyrobob on 09/11/12 at 08:48:27 2C27222278794E0 wrote:
I've tried it. It's just a grossly overpriced solvent. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by Oldfeller on 09/11/12 at 12:20:27 3225363629203F22233F3E500 wrote:
Chalk up another car oil 20-50w "clutch slipper" on my list of Why Clutches Slip :( |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by verslagen1 on 09/11/12 at 14:38:35 34203174767675460 wrote:
The oil is def an issue here. Depending on how long you ran that CAR oil in your bike will decide on what needs to be done. If it wasn't very long several flushes with a non-friction modifier oil will wash all that crap outta your clutch. Now if you have been running it for awhile, you will have to take apart the clutch and do some sanding to get the crap off of the plates. Another thing about the oil you have been using, it doesn't have near enough of the high pressure additives to keep your Savage's motor alive. R.F.[/quote] Once that oil gets on your plates, it's hard to get off. OF has a thread on clutch cleaning, maybe he'll treat you to a link. But the basics are there. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by rfw2003 on 09/11/12 at 14:52:31 yeah I was just summing it up. Here is the post were OF talkes about how to clean them. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1270678838/9#9 |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by Cavi Mike on 09/11/12 at 16:46:29 1C2229343934395B0 wrote:
That was before the existence of multi-grade oils. Also, the gasoline won't fully evaporate and will leave you with a permanently thinner oil. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by feelinjunky on 09/11/12 at 18:37:57 29242B2620377772450 wrote:
A critically important question, eh?[/quote] Absolutely critical question., [/quote] YEP[/quote] Yup. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by Gyrobob on 09/11/12 at 18:56:15 0725322D092D2F21440 wrote:
That was before the existence of multi-grade oils. Also, the gasoline won't fully evaporate and will leave you with a permanently thinner oil.[/quote] Don't tell that to my buds up in AK that are still doing it. They've made their living up there for decades doing these things. They'll be surprised when you tell them it doesn't work. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by Charon on 09/11/12 at 19:29:06 407E7568656865070 wrote:
I have heard of doing this, too, but had forgotten about it until you brought it up. Seems to me while most of the gasoline will evaporate out, it will leave behind such additives as lead. Older AVGAS had more lead than modern 100LL, but it is still there. Perhaps fairly frequent oil changes help. Wouldn't surprise me to find some cars and trucks get the same treatment. Another helpful thing with airplane engines is the practice of hand propping them over a few times before start attempts. It "limbers" them up, and also as a fringe benefit makes sure there isn't a hydrostatic lock. Some airplane operators were known to drain engine oil into a suitable bucket, and leave that bucket on or near the stove so it stayed warm. Then the warm oil was poured back into the engine for the next day's start. Bringing the battery inside wouldn't hurt, either. All of which comments are completely off the topic of the cure for a slipping clutch. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by Boofer on 09/12/12 at 00:41:01 If I have to mix gas with the oil just to get it going in the cold, I'm heading straight south for a few thousand miles. ;D But I do remember my uncle building a small fire under his old pickup oil pan on cold mornings. If you're old enough to remember the 6 volt systems on those old vehicles, you may have seen it yourself. That was back when men was men. ;D |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by stinger on 09/12/12 at 08:17:48 Say what you want about Wal-mart car oil. I just hit 50,000 miles on my Savage using nothing but. Most high speed riding over 60. Never a oil leak and never had a repair on the engine. Runs as good as new. By the way, still on the second cam chain. changed the first at 33,000 miles but it didn't need it really. Sick of oil talk and people who say you need $6 a qt oil. Sometimes I mix different brands together. Makes no difference. Savage Greg has been in my engine and said it looked like new. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/12/12 at 08:41:53 76716C6B626077050 wrote:
Theres some of that "The proof is in the pudding"..That "cheap" oil clearly doesnt have the friction modifiers in it, so, in lieu of that expensive chemical package, what IS in there? I wonder if its still got some ZDDP,, |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by Oldfeller on 09/12/12 at 12:28:52 Stinger, which Wally oil was that, brand, type and weight? Just about every Wally oil has VOA and UOA data available on BITOG, so we can likely take a look at what's in it. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by arteacher on 09/12/12 at 15:57:13 "Another helpful thing with airplane engines is the practice of hand propping them over a few times before start attempts. It "limbers" them up, and also as a fringe benefit makes sure there isn't a hydrostatic lock." To the best of my knowledge, which is limited, this is only necessary if the engine is a rotary, or inverted. This is because some oil will settle in the cylinders and cause hydro lock if you don't first cycle the motor to get the oil out of the cylinders. This is one of the reasons that these engines smoke like mad when they are first started up- the oil is burning off in the exhaust manifold. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by Gyrobob on 09/12/12 at 18:03:24 4C47474E424D4C5657230 wrote:
This is one time when your limited knowledge is correct. ;-) BTW, the term is "radial" not "rotary",.... unless you are talking WWI. Some of those dudes flew behind engine/prop assemblies where the entire engine rotated with the prop,... yep, a "rotary" engine... the prop was fastened to the crankcase, and the crankshaft was fastened to the firewall. Think of the gyroscopic loads!!!! |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by buffyporson on 09/13/12 at 18:27:02 Still using cheap 20/50. But now the clutch works great. Kinda thought this might help others with slipping savage clutches rather than become a debate on engine oil. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by Gyrobob on 09/13/12 at 19:41:38 Why does it work great now? |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by Oldfeller on 09/13/12 at 21:11:21 372033332C253A27263A3B550 wrote:
Here is your source material. Sounds like he used the "wrong" 20w50 oil, had slippy clutch issues, did fixes (several) and is telling others who follow the same path a way out of the woods that only requires tearing the side case down and adding "Stronger springs, 'performance' plates, washers under springs etc. I finally think I have found something which works long term. I placed an additional plain (not friction) clutch plate in the basket. This results in a slightly thicker clutch pack which pre-tensions the springs more when everything is assembled" The alternatives are: 1) use the right oil in the first place (easiest) 2) tear the plates out of the clutch, clean and sand them, then use the right oil from then on (tough, but tough love is tough) 3) continue using the wrong oil and do all of the above in blue text as he has discovered a way to use the wrong oil and keep the clutch from slipping. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by SALB on 09/13/12 at 21:18:19 7251595B585151584F3D0 wrote:
Here is your source material. Sounds like he used the "wrong" 20w50 oil, had slippy clutch issues, did fixes (several) and is telling others who follow the same path a way out of the woods that only requires tearing the side case down and adding "Stronger springs, 'performance' plates, washers under springs etc. I finally think I have found something which works long term. I placed an additional plain (not friction) clutch plate in the basket. This results in a slightly thicker clutch pack which pre-tensions the springs more when everything is assembled" The alternatives are: 1) use the right oil in the first place (easiest) 2) tear the plates out of the clutch, clean and sand them, then use the right oil from then on (tough, but tough love is tough) 3) continue using the wrong oil and do all of the above in blue text as he has discovered a way to use the wrong oil and keep the clutch from slipping.[/quote] 3) continue using the wrong oil and do all of the above in blue text and see how long it takes to start slipping again. I wonder how many extra clutch plates will fit in the pack???? ::) |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/13/12 at 23:15:58 Ill wait for the " My clutch throwout broke" report. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by Cavi Mike on 09/13/12 at 23:52:44 6D5358454845482A0 wrote:
x2 |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by JohnBoy on 09/14/12 at 11:28:02 Quote:
Oldfeller wrote extensively on clutches including adding additional plates a couple of years ago. I consider him to be very reliable. OF what was your informed opinion about adding an additional plate to a clutch pack? Did you have to make any additional mods? |
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Title: Re: Clutch slip cure. Post by Oldfeller on 09/14/12 at 11:53:25 Stock, relatively unworn, there is enough room for an extra steel plate (barely). But remember, this is your throw-out stroke room you are using up with that extra steel plate thickness. (thus Justin's comment about over stressing the powdered steel throw-out eccentric as he is hitting a solid metal-to-metal lock up with his clutch lever motion) You cannot put in the steel and a fiber until you go through the longer Suzuki rod and at least one custom cut longer rod. This takes a LOT of miles, more miles than I have done yet anyway. When your current rod is longer than the stock rod by the combined width of a steel and a fiber, you have enough working room to put them in. So, discovery is pending ..... for now anyway. The stock clutch when used with an appropriate oil and the appropriate push rod replacement is proving to be VERY DURABLE and long lived. |
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