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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Add on fuel filter restriction issues /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1352043794 Message started by Grayowl on 11/04/12 at 07:43:14 |
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Title: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Grayowl on 11/04/12 at 07:43:14 I added a fuel filter (5/16 inlet & outlet) that appears to be the same as Oldfellows (from pictures in his posts) and purchased it from Auto Zone. The bike will only run for a couple of minutes then it is starved for fuel. When I remove the filter it is fine, so it has to be the restriction on the filter in a gravity feed system. Has anyone else run into this issue ? I have seen it mentioned by Claron in one other post by Cafejim (Help!!! Carb problems I think? 10/26/12 at 21:43:2), but not much discussion on it. When I remove the line from the carb no fuel come out with the starter turning the engine and the petcock in the ON or Reserve position. When I remove the fuel filter the fuel will run out of the line with the starter turning the engine and the petcock in the ON or Reserve position. When I am in the Prime position on the petcock no fuel with the filter and fuel without it that is why I am thinking it has to be restriction across the 40 micron paper pleat filters that I can find in the local auto part stores. Does anyone have a part number that works on the LS 650 ? Just thought I would ask, since I would like to run an additional filter to protect against issues with small crap in the carb, but have not been able to find one with a low enough restriction to work on the gravity fuel system. The one from my tractor works but it is only a gravel catcher so to speak 100 micron and up. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Oldfeller on 11/04/12 at 07:57:53 Charon's information came from a Honda 250 twin that he is currently riding. Can you post a pic of your set up on your Savage? Have you ever simply poured some gasoline into the inlet of the filter and watched to see if the paper element would stop it? That is functionally at NO head height, so if the gas stops like you think it will then you have something to show the clerk at Autozone when you carry the filter back to them to get your money back. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Grayowl on 11/04/12 at 08:13:05 I have it off the bike right now, but it was set up just like yours in your post (Re: Help!!! Carb problems I think? Reply #13 - 10/27/12 at 17:28:30). I used that picture to filter shopping to find one that would work and had the hose routing just like you picture, since I had issues with one other filters before that. Missed the point about Honda 250 Twin, sorry about that. I am headed out to the shop to pour some gas into the filter, never thought of that until you mentioned it. I was thinking I was doing the same thing on the bike with the petcock, but that would really prove it in my own mind – no head pressure at all in that setup. Thanks !! |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Oldfeller on 11/04/12 at 08:21:08 They have a word for fuel filters that do not pass fuel when you pour it into the inlet side .... ..... defective ...... But before you try to carry it back to the clerk make sure it isn't marked with a flow arrow or "inlet" and "outlet". Some filters do have one>way valves incorporated in them, you know. The clerk might also ask you about water after he examines the clear sided filter, as soaking the paper with water before gasoline gets applied to it can cause a paper filter to osmosis lock out the gasoline flow. And we have heard about some folks using an old gas can full of watery rusty gasoline lately, which sort of thing could certainly do that sort of water soaking to a newly installed paper pleated fuel filter. But it would show through the sides of the clear filter as wavy looking "swollen up" looking paper pleats. A possible way to save a water soaked filter is to pour rubbing alcohol through it (Alcohol will mix with and absorb the water). But since yours is brand new, simply carry it back to where you bought it from and get your money back. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Grayowl on 11/04/12 at 08:38:44 Fuel runs through it, but in doing that drill I think figured out what is biting me. From the picture in your post the filter is full of fuel. Mine never filled up, but I am thinking that it had some kind of air lock going on in the filter when it was hooked up to the carb and float was holding flow closed during installation of the filter. Just having the petcock in the ON position was not enough to allow the filter to fill. I am going to get it back on the bike shortly and fill the filter this time and see what the outcome is. Thanks for helping me see the light or lack of fuel in this setup !! :) |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Oldfeller on 11/04/12 at 08:46:36 If you notice my set up, everything is oriented sequentially "downhill" and the top of the filter is below the petcock exit point so my filter stays full all the time. Air lock? No such animal as the fuel will flow downhill right through the paper element until the bowl fills up and the fuel backs up and fills the filter. If you haven't been seeing this, you have another issue like a stuck float valve. Take a good sized screwdriver handle and whack the bowl 3-4 times fairly smartly with the handle end when the petcock is on prime. You should start to see fuel start flowing. ============ Now, here is a totally biased piece of advice. Get rid of your vacsucker petcock, because if a simple fuel filter puzzles you out then that vacsucker is gonna drive you totally out of your mind when it starts to misbehave. ;) |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Grayowl on 11/04/12 at 10:55:02 I went out and installed the filter in the same orientation that the fuel ran through it on the bench. No fuel will flow into the filter with the outlet connected to the carb. Taping on the bowl make no difference on the flow into the filter. Running the engine makes no difference in the ON, RES, or prime position. Remove the line from the carb engine running and very little to no fuel will come out of the line from the filter with the engine idling. In fact no fuel will flow into the filter with the outlet end of the filter open and downhill in the prime position. Remove the filter and fuel will flow out the hose end in the prime position on the petcock no problem. No matter what I do the filter will not fill with fuel or even flow fuel through it for that matter. I agree that just sitting there the filter should flow fuel in the prime position on the petcock, but it doesn’t. I am at a loss as to why the filter will flow fuel with when you pour in into the filter and not when it is hooked to the petcock in the prime position. I understand how the vacuum portion of the petcock works and that is why I have been using the prime position during these drills. I have also tried the ON and RES positions to no avail with the engine idling on what fuel was in the bowl. Fuel flows through the gravel catcher (100 micron screen) filter off of my tractor when it is on the bike and the bike runs fine. The fuel will not flow through the FF7144DL filter when it is on my tractor (gravity fuel system also), so it has to be something in the FF7144DL fuel filter 40 micron pleated paper media and restriction across it. Since the fuel will flow through the FF7144DL filter when it is poured in I am at a loss as to why the filter is acting the way it does. This has become a personnel issue with me and I will get the lab manometer on the filter at work on Monday and get an exact restriction across the filter media. Back to running a straight hose and riding the bike to worry about the fuel filter another day. Thanks again for the help and advise !! |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/04/12 at 11:01:12 TRy a long hose on the filter, filled with fuel & blow gas thru it, wet the paper fully. Once its wet with gas, it may play more nicely, Youve already done some smart stuff by playing with the tractor & its filter. One more step & its either on the bike or back to the store. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Grayowl on 11/04/12 at 11:25:10 JOG2 - I will try that on Monday when I have the filter in the shop and see if it makes any difference in the restriction across the media when I can measure the actual restriction with good accuracy. That way if the restriction changes from what I now to full of fuel I will be able to detect it. From one of your other posts it looks like you live out in east Texas somewhere. I live down in Granbury, TX and get out to the mines in east Texas from time to time for my job. Maybe we could get together sometime for lunch when I am out there. I normal have the truck when I am out at the mines, as I need my tools to fix what issue they have going on. If I ever catch a PR visit at the mines were no tools are needed I could ride the bike out. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/04/12 at 11:38:02 YOu must get up around Mineola then? Im North of Longview , about 5 or 6 miles I guess, , about 1/2 mile East of 300, & about 2 miles North of 1844. Im about 40 Mi East of Mineola. Im not riding right now, so,, bring the truck.Just come on out, Theres a few good burger joints in L/view. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Charon on 11/04/12 at 12:23:14 Actually, the machine on which I tried the fuel filter is a Honda CH80, an Elite 80 scooter. The filter flowed enough fuel when the tank was full, but not enough when the tank got down to 1/2 as measured on the scooter's gauge. The scooter tops out about 40-45 mph, and gets about 80 mpg, so the filter only has to flow 1/2 gph. Filling the tank (at a gas station, not from a rusty can) restored operation until I got home and removed the filter. I have several paper filters on hand, all new. I plan to run an unscientific flow test on them when time permits. My plan is to use an old fuel tank from a Toro Sno Pup, which holds about a quart. I am still working on details of the procedure, but I plan to restrict the "head" of gasoline to less than a few inches. The basic idea is to fill the tank, time how long it takes to empty with no filter, then try again with each filter. If life doesn't get in the way again, I should be able to get to it in a few days. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Oldfeller on 11/04/12 at 12:30:18 Fuel flows through the gravel catcher (100 micron screen) filter off of my tractor when it is on the bike and the bike runs fine. The fuel will not flow through the FF7144DL filter when it is on my tractor (gravity fuel system also), so it has to be something in the FF7144DL fuel filter 40 micron pleated paper media and restriction across it. Since the fuel will flow through the FF7144DL filter when it is poured in I am at a loss as to why the filter is acting the way it does. This has become a personnel issue with me and I will get the lab manometer on the filter at work on Monday and get an exact restriction across the filter media. Justin, be aware that he is talking about testing his tractor fuel filter not the big clear universal filter that is mentioned in the instructional thread he says he's basing off of. Punch in FF7144DL filter into your browser and it does come up with an Autozone listing that looks like this. http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/_/N-8gd7g?itemIdentifier=246928_0_0_ http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/chl/FF7144DL/image/4/ He's got the completely wrong filter, or something else is wrong here. First he starts off talking his bike and a clear filter .... I added a fuel filter (5/16 inlet & outlet) that appears to be the same as Oldfellows (from pictures in his posts) and purchased it from Auto Zone. The bike will only run for a couple of minutes then it is starved for fuel. Then he finishes talking about his his bike AND his tractor and a tractor style filter on his bike. ?????? Fuel flows through the gravel catcher (100 micron screen) filter off of my tractor when it is on the bike and the bike runs fine. The fuel will not flow through the FF7144DL filter when it is on my tractor (gravity fuel system also), so it has to be something in the FF7144DL fuel filter 40 micron pleated paper media and restriction across it. Since the fuel will flow through the FF7144DL filter when it is poured in I am at a loss as to why the filter is acting the way it does. This has become a personnel issue with me and I will get the lab manometer on the filter at work on Monday and get an exact restriction across the filter media. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Grayowl on 11/04/12 at 13:28:02 The filter I have does not look like the picture you have it is marked with FF7144DL and 12155195 and came from the local AutoZone. It has 5/16 inlet and outlet and is clear plastic about 1.25 in dia and slightly tapered at one end. Looks very similar to the one Oldfellow has on his bike, that is why I bought it. It appears the AutoZone site is having problems as I can not get to it. I Googled FF7144DL and it comes up with a Durlast filter that looks like the one I have and several sites for other bike owners recommend using it, but some have had problems from what I have been reading on those sights. This one blows my mind as it should work from the test I have done, but doesn’t. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Oldfeller on 11/04/12 at 13:29:17 Charon, I am very interested in your "head pressure survey" information. Please don't junk it up with a lot of metal cannister data though as I don't think people should be using opaque fuel filters (it misses the main point that the clear sided filters do meet, to be able to SEE your fuel's condition and its flow) ========== Yup, I mighta got lucky on my clear fuel filter compared to a lot of the metal pressure cannister types out there. I wanted to be able to SEE what was going on -- and I still think that is a key requirement for troubleshooting. (I don't think I would have put my finger on the vac petcock near as quickly without the clear filter to look at when the bike was dying by the roadside). Mine was sold as a clear plastic universal in-line filter and they used to be very common, Walmart sold them as did every auto parts store, in quarter inch, 5/16 and 3/8 sizes. Some had combo nipples (mine did). The world does turn from year to year though, and I am surprised to find that now the clear sided fuel filters in the smaller nipple sizes are not so easily found any more. Fram G2, G3 and Fram G12 are still in stock at parts stores, etc, but the ID size of the hose goes up to 3/8" which is still within clamp closure range I guess. The old G1 small nipple must be ordered from most places now days. "The G2 has a nominal micron rating of 10-14 microns." You gotta love that very very very clear polycarbonate bowl that Fram uses, although under stress a polycarbonate can crack a little easier than a softer (less clear) plastic. Our looping hoses don't put a lot of stress on anything, and the position we put it in is very protected from impacts. Also note that Fram packs a lot of inches of filter paper into that tightly folded pleat section, more so than a lot of the others who don't filter nearly as finely. http://www.oilfiltersonline.com/images/products/large/G2_102306.jpg Here is a pic of the old G1 small nipple which does need to be ordered most places now days. In retrospect, a quarter inch hose is likely too small on the nipple ID for a maximized fuel flow (the nipple on the filter presents a restriction point). When I replace mine, I will go with bigger 3/8" hose and bigger nipples accordingly. http://www.oilfiltersonline.com/images/products/large/G1_092606.jpg There are a lot of two stroke marine filters in the same size range are available at larger micron numbers, but that isn't "commonly available" the way I like to recommend things. Still, the use of a CLEAR SIDED fuel filter is vital on a motorcycle, so you can see what is what with your fuel. We will have to spot some easy to get filter sources and see what we have available and add it back to the Tech thread. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Grayowl on 11/04/12 at 13:59:12 I finally got into the AutoZone web site and the filter comes up there with two on the page the first one is the one I have with their part number Part Number: FF1-4DL, but the filter is stamped FF7144DL. I am not sure what the deal is there, but I will look later when I go past the AutoZone. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Oldfeller on 11/04/12 at 14:13:21 Looks like Autozone is sourcing far eastern fuel filters to replace their Frams and haven't gotten all their web stuff straightened out yet. The FF1-4DL looks to be a Fram G1 replacement, but not with the nice clear Fram polycarbonate bowl. The vendor is called "Import Products". Filter paper "goodness" from an oriental copy, who knows? http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/ipc/FF1-4DL/image/2/ Import Products FF1-4DL 12 pleats visible in pic ================================================= http://www.oilfiltersonline.com/images/products/large/G1_092606.jpg 20 pleats visible in pic FRAM G1 ================================================= In retrospect, the larger 3/8" hose is looking better and better to me as the clamps we use can make it conform down to 5/16" fairly easily on the petcock and carburetor nipples. The key point being the filter nipple IDs would not present the "restriction point" to the whole system any more. The stock metric petcock nipples and metric carburetor nipple would present the least ID restriction in such a system. http://www.oilfiltersonline.com/images/products/large/G2_102306.jpg You know, I feel really funny calling FRAM anything "the good stuff" because all my life it has been the poorest performing of all American vendor's products. But still, compared to unknown oriental stuff, I guess beggers can't be choosers .... ================= PS I fixed up the Filter Tech Thread and I am waiting to see Charon's filter flow analysis at 2-3 inches of system drop to see what is "most commonly seen" at a minimal head pressure. 2.5 gallons for 100 miles = .025 gallon per mile = 0.4 cups per mile at 16 cups per gallon. This is our grand average fuel consumption per mile, 0.4 cups per mile. When we go "normally" it is at about 60 miles per hour -- that is at a mile a minute effective rate. 0.4 cup fuel consumption per minute is supposedly equal to about a mile in a minute at our grand average consumption rate, so a 1 cup per minute filter pass rate would allow you to go at least as fast as a Savage can possibly go. ========================== Now Dave has done some pass rate work on a Raptor petcock. 7C474A5D4C405B5D464E435C2F0 wrote:
So a Raptor can flow around 7 cups of gas in a minute, so the Raptor isn't a potential issue here. The stock vac petcock in "ON" position may or may not be an issue as it has dynamic flow depending on engine suction levels. Let's ASSuME that in Prime position a vacsucker isn't a flow limiter either just to move things along. So we need a cup a minute throught the filter and the lines ..... |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Charon on 11/04/12 at 16:50:39 "When you explore the unknown, by definition, you do not know what you will find." I ended up having more time this afternoon than I expected, so was able to run some tests. My basic setup was an old fuel tank from a Toro SnoPup. It is about 3 1/2" diameter, about 8" long, and holds about a quart. I didn't measure precisely, because I use the same tank for all testing. I don't know if would make a difference, but ambient temperature was about 58 degrees F. Initial test: hold my finger on the outlet nipple, fill the tank, remove my finger and start my old analog stopwatch. When fuel flow stops, stop the stopwatch. Time, 97 seconds. Second test. Attach the filter (TW FASTEX VISU FILTER) which gave trouble on my CH80 scooter with about 4" of plastic line. Hold the filter upright to allow fuel to fill it. Put finger over outlet of filter, fill tank, remove finger and start stopwatch. Time to drain 88 seconds - less than the unrestricted tank? Repeat and get 86 seconds. Total distance from bottom of tank to bottom of filter, about six inches. Third test, a Briggs and Stratton filter, PN 691035, which on its packaging says it is for engines with fuel pumps. Time to drain the tank was 74 seconds. Fourth test, a filter with a UPC of 37049 92399. I cannot remember whether I got it at Walmart or Ace Hardware. Time to drain tank, 70 seconds. Fifth test, the tank with the 4" of line, but no filter. Time 81 seconds. The gas was on hand from three or four months ago, and I think it was what Bill would have called "100% pure gasoline." The gas I had used in my scooter was E-10. When the filters dry out I'll get a gallon of E-10 and try again, just in case it makes a difference. All filters are clear plastic, pleated paper. I am not sure how to go about attaching more than one picture to a post, or I'd do so. But as I have said before, if I have to use a third-party site it ain't gonna happen. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Oldfeller on 11/04/12 at 17:28:47 436861726F6E000 wrote:
To get the needed total 2-3" Savage vertical drop you might have to lay the filter and the hose over on their side with the top of the filter just below the outlet point from the tank and the post filter hose length laying over with an additional inch of drop below the bottom of the filter, with the tank outlet point down to lowest hose end point being 2-3" of vertical drop with the filter and the hose bends all being lateral resistance (which is what we really do). What is your hose size again? Nipple size on the filters? |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Grayowl on 11/04/12 at 17:43:18 Checked at AutoZone and the filter package states it is a Duralast FF7144DL universal filter that is made in China. It has ¼ - 5/16 inlet and outlet on it, you just cut off the ¼ to have the 5/16 I am trying to use. I have a picture of the filter, but cannot find the instruction on how to get a picture into a post. I also checked my fuel tank and I am at about 1/3 full, so that could have some bearing on the issue of flow. I guess it does not really matter because I need the filter to flow all the fuel in tank to be useful. Wondering about the Chinese filter media now. Still cannot get over the flow just pouring gas into the filter verses from the petcock. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Oldfeller on 11/04/12 at 17:49:23 7A4F5C44524A510F0D0C0C3D0 wrote:
========================== To post a pic look just below the little box you type your posts into. Right below the smiley faces is a browse bar that lets you locate your picture, when you find pic on your PC just double click on it and it will appear in the bar itself. When you save your post the picture is saved with it. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Charon on 11/04/12 at 17:51:48 The outlet of my tank was (unmeasured) about 1/4" ID. A 5/16 hose fits nicely on the nipple, but I used a 1/4" ID and forced it on. One of the filters was a 1/4 and 5/16 combined size; the others were nominally 1/4". I used 4" of tubing to give me room to bend the filter "up" so as to allow it to fill with gasoline before I pointed it down for the test. As I said, the total drop or head was about 6" from the bottom of the tank to the bottom of the filter, with the filter and hose more or less in a straight line pointing down. Total drop from the top of the tank to the bottom of the filter would have been no more than 10". There was no line attached to the outlet of the filter - I just stuck it into the collection tank. The S40 head varies from about 12" with a full tank to about 4" with an empty tank. I admit to being somewhat surprised when the second test (the first filter test) resulted in a shorter time than the unrestricted tank. I attribute it to the additional "suction" of the longer drain line, and that is why I ran the final test with the 4" line but no filter. My testing is by no means rigorous, and I welcome constructive criticism. This should be the filter which gave trouble on the scooter. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Charon on 11/04/12 at 17:58:59 This should be the Briggs and Stratton filter. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Charon on 11/04/12 at 17:59:57 And this is the third filter. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Oldfeller on 11/04/12 at 18:02:46 Ain't any criticism there -- if you do any more testing let's intentionally screw it up just as bad as any newbie can possibly do. (just to be real world) ;) Start out with an empty dry filter and lay everything on its side at the hose length and with the sideways measured 2-3" total system drop and let the fuel flow down to fill everything up as much as it ever will, finger stop it with your finger then start the stop watch and fill the cup. Might as well time how long a cup takes as that's what we really need, a cup in a minute. That way you can get a couple of tests out of a tankful and you can see it the flow rate really changes very much at the bitter bitter end of a tank full. Makes the math & reporting easier, this way. Plus I want everyone to really see that "filling everything up" totally isn't really needed -- it is a gravity flow situation just like water falling down from one puddle to the next .... It <filled suction that is> helps some, sure -- but to make a cup a minute I bet it isn't needed. =================== That filter that was on the scooter, does it use "sideways" pleated paper or something else to do the filtering? Hard to tell in the picture, really. Looks sideways to the construction of the rest of the filters though, with not nearly as many pleats available. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Charon on 11/04/12 at 18:15:20 All three filters use pleated paper, but none of them gave specs as to their filtering abilities (xx microns). When I put the filter on the scooter, the filter didn't seem to ever really fill up. It is hard to judge, because the body panels on the scooter hide the filter from view. I guessed that was because there really wasn't any way for the air in it to pass back up the fuel line into the tank. That is also why I pointed the filter "up" for my testing. When I removed the filter from the scooter, I blew through it and noticed a distinct resistance. Today, when I got through testing it, I blew through it and didn't notice the resistance. I plan to try it again with known E-10 and see if it makes a difference. I am not completely sure what the fuel was that I used today, since I cannot even remember for sure when I bought it. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Oldfeller on 11/04/12 at 18:18:20 When you are done and have picked out the best of the litter, let it dry out good (or blow it dry with compressed air) and then intentionally wet it with water and see how much gas it will pass then. (bet it doesn't do too well if water gets into the filter paper fibers ahead of the gasoline). |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Grayowl on 11/04/12 at 18:24:05 The one I have looks amazing like the third one Charon tested and worked great. Here is the one I was trying to use without much luck. Thanks Charon for the testing you did and both Oldfellow and your input on this. I am losing my mind on why it will not flow out of the petcock in prime, which is a totally the stock vacuum petcock at this point. From what I have seen the prime position is total free flowing depending on the float valve to keep it from running into the engine or do I have my facts wrong ? The diaphragm does not come into play except on the ON and RES positions right. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Grayowl on 11/04/12 at 18:25:14 Here is the filter itself. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/04/12 at 20:24:58 Prime = sittin on the bike, grabbing the lever & swinging it to the rear of the bike. If you arent gettin gas like that, sumpins RongGG |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Oldfeller on 11/04/12 at 21:08:14 Justin, it is just my own personal bias showing up again -- but how is he to separate the various failure modes of the vac petcock system from his attempts to get a fuel filter set up working correctly? The only way I can see is to get the vac petcock out of the way .... Greyowl, your Prime position isn't a separate passage, it is a little spring finger lifting up the diaphragm and little valve seat (using the same passages). If your vac petcock is getting bubble gum rubberitus, what makes you think Prime is operating correctly? ::) |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Todd James on 11/04/12 at 21:30:52 Grayowl stated in Reply #18: "Checked at AutoZone and the filter package states it is a Duralast FF7144DL universal filter that is made in China." Here is a picture of the same part number filter that I purchased at my local Auto Zone and it is imprinted "Made in Israel" followed by the number "1212" It appears that Auto Zone's part numbers may not be useful for performance comparisons if the parts in the package may come from different manufacturers in different countries. I haven't installed mine yet, so I can't report on how it works. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Oldfeller on 11/04/12 at 21:41:50 I only count six (6) visible pleats in that filter. That is not a lot of paper. Israeli filter 6 pleats visible http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/Filter.jpg Chinese filter 6 pleats visible http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/Filter_1.JPG FRAM G2 20 pleats visible http://www.oilfiltersonline.com/images/products/large/G2_102306.jpg FRAM has nearly quadruple the paper and a nice clear hard polycarbonate bowl |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Routy on 11/05/12 at 06:55:30 This thread gave me a headache ! How can anyone can make life so complicated. Life is what you make of it,....I keep it simple. But then, I don't let "petcock paranoia" get me either. And I don't use a filter that filters smaller material than what could ever hurt anything in the fuel system. And it fits perfectly, downhill all the way ! http://p1.bikepics.com/2012/05/14/bikepics-2401250-800.jpg |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Gyrobob on 11/05/12 at 08:53:50 333C263D212734363E3027550 wrote:
That filter is good for keeping rocks out of the carb, but not much else. After a few years, the carb bowl will have a layer of sediment in it from the fine dirt that makes it through that filter. Also, it does seem kind of silly to use a filter like that after the filter on the petcock which has a finer screen. I have used those kinds of coarse screen filters in front of a paper element filter, though. If you have room for it, it works pretty well to let the paper filter only have to keep out the fine grit without getting clogged up with rocks. The coarse filter will last forever, and can be reverse rinsed to dump out the rocks, periodically. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Oldfeller on 11/05/12 at 09:03:33 Yes Routy, you have added a small flat section of fine metal screen to your fuel flow. This device was intended for riding lawnmowers and it would indeed be an improvement for a system that had no screen in it at all, like a B&S riding lawnmower. So now you have a large fine plastic mesh screen up inside your tank on your petcock and a small section of the same sort of mesh, made out of metal this time, in your fuel line. You have doubled up on your 100 micron protection and you have made sure all solid particles are less than 100 microns. You will never find sand inside your float bowl ever again. It will be in your tank and in your little round filter instead. The mesh filter manufacturers all claim that they can stop 150 micron particles (some claims go as low as 100 microns). They make no claims for stopping water (because the screens can't). Lastly, if we occasionally block up the larger screen sections up in the Savage's tank, how long will it take to clog up the little round disc of the same sort of material in the fuel line? Do you pull it and clean it periodically or wait until whenever the upper screens plug up / varnish up? But you are right, it is all part of 'petcock paranoia'. ;) I'm paranoid that my vac petcock is going to strand me in the middle of a busy 6 lane expressway .... Charon made a statement that his scooter fuel filter wouldn't pass enough gas when his tank went low -- now he is back checking his statement and discovering more about it. We are all learning and discovering new stuff. We have quantified how much gas a Savage uses (0.4 cups a minute normal "average" riding) and have set a goal of a cup a minute as an acceptable flow rate at full tilt boogie speeds. Now we have a fuel filter test that can be used (wait until you are in reserve, then pull your fuel hose from the carburetor nipple, get your cup and wrist watch ready and throw your petcock lever over to go and see how many seconds it takes to get your cup full -- less than 60 seconds is a pass, more than 60 is a fail) GreyOwl has an issue he had attributed to his filter, now he is learning more about his petcock because apparently it isn't his filter as his filter (if it is the same as Charon's #3 filter) is easily capable of filtering at like twice the rate our bike needs at full tilt boogie. And you are right, we are all being silly wanting that big clear sided filter bowl up under the edge of our tanks so we can instantly SEE what's what when our bikes malfunction and stop us by the road side. Silly us .... Silly me .... ;D |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Routy on 11/05/12 at 15:42:55 Ya all don't understand,....the screen filter is there to catch all those deteriorated vacuum petcock rubber and diaphram parts, that thru "petcock paranoia" has me convinced will all come unglued one of these days, and come crashing down into my carburator,.........if I didn't have the filter that is :o ;D |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Oldfeller on 11/05/12 at 16:06:29 Routy, that was a good answer -- shame you tongue was in your cheek. ;) Metal parts, too big -- screen would stop those. Glops of bubble gum rubberitus, mebbe stopped, mebbe oozed right on through. Sad thing is your bike wouldn't be running well enough to drink it into the carburetor, now would it? You'd already be hit by the big Ford Truck by then. Petcock war is declared on a separate labeled thread, it's winter time and time fer debatin' stuff again. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/05/12 at 16:10:56 16353D3F3C35353C2B590 wrote:
Good point,, a dose of chronic BG Rubberitis will ( do pardon me, please) sure gum up the works. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Charon on 11/05/12 at 19:56:51 I found it interesting that in the writeup on Honda's CH80 (www.motorscooterguide.net) one of the criticisms was its lack of a fuel filter. It was strongly suggested that a filter be added. The rationale was that a lot of those scooters have sat around for a while and are being resurrected, and they are likely to have dirt and/or rust in the tanks. I bought mine, a 2007, with 4.4 odometer miles as a used unit from a dealership. I looked in the tank using a flashlight, and at least visually it is spotless. However, after a thousand or so miles of playing I decided to add the filter, and it caused trouble. Also interesting, the first year of production was 1985 and it had a filter. The filter was dropped after the first year, but I have found no explanation. Did Honda decide the filter was not needed? Or did it give trouble? |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/05/12 at 20:02:13 042F26352829470 wrote:
http://www.jacksscootershop.com/honda_info.html Didnt see it in the list of Known Problems,maybe they used an Oh Fishul Honda filter.. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Gyrobob on 11/06/12 at 12:12:42 Here's the filter we used on both Double RYCA Build bikes. They seem to have no trouble flowing enough fuel. I had mine up to about 85 for several minutes just to keep up with traffic on I-85. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh253/Gyrobob_theOriginal/KampNfuelfilter01b.jpg http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=81-0261 |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Charon on 11/09/12 at 13:24:00 OK, folks - the long-awaited Second Phase, this time using E-10. My first test was the quart fuel tank with the four-inch plastic line. It resulted in 81 seconds to empty, same as with "100% pure gas." From that I decided not to worry about differences in fuel density being a factor. Second test was with the filter which had given trouble on my scooter. This time I did not allow the filter to prime, but with it pointed straight down and my finger blocking its outlet, filled my little tank. I removed my finger from the outlet, started my stopwatch, and Behold! no flow. Barring a few stray drops, that is. After a minute or so I stopped the watch, pointed the filter UP and got it filled with fuel (expelling the air bubble). It then took 84 seconds to drain, where last time it was 88 and 86 on two tests. The fuel line on the scooter is 3/16" ID, even worse than the 1/4" ID in my testing, so I believe the problem on the scooter was an air lock in the filter. The picture is the filter shot from the inlet end, so Oldfeller can satisfy his craving to know about pleats. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Charon on 11/09/12 at 13:35:52 My third test was the Briggs & Stratton filter. I did as in the second test. I held my finger over the outlet, filled the tank, unblocked the outlet and started the stopwatch. This time flow started, albeit slowly. Then apparently an air bubble exited and flow sped up to normal, taking a total of 88 seconds to empty the tank. The filter never filled with gasoline. No photo attached of this one, as it is the same as the last time. Last time when I "primed" the filter it took 74 seconds. I think the difference is the slow flow until an air bubble exited. My fourth test was the same as above, with the last filter. This time the flow started quite slowly, then I could see an air bubble in the fuel line above the filter start to move down. When it got into the filter body flow speeded up, and the total time was 113 seconds. Last time, with the filter primed, it took 74 seconds. The photo is of the last filter, but taken from the side opposite its label so as to show pleats. As a final and very unscientific test, I blew through each of the filters. There was no noticeable difference when blowing from inlet to outlet or from outlet to inlet, so apparently there is no one-way valve. But the Briggs filter seemed least restrictive, followed by the last filter, and the first one (TW FASTEX VISU FILTER) was noticeably more restrictive. These differences can be attributed to filter media area or to filter restrictiveness (micron filtration) or both. I have no way to know. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Oldfeller on 11/10/12 at 14:43:27 Stated in terms of a full cup of gas in 60 seconds or less, did any of the filters have any issue meeting this required flow rate? How about when the air bubble was there? |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Charon on 11/10/12 at 15:23:12 I did not measure in "cups" and do not intend to do so. In fact, I didn't measure the volume at all, except that my little tank holds somewhere near a quart. My measurements can be approximately translated to gph by dividing the seconds per tank into 900, or gpm by dividing the seconds into 15. The main conclusion I reached, which will probably require further experimentation, is that none of the filters can be counted on to prime from dry unless the inlet is lower than the outlet, giving the air in the filter a chance to be pushed along the fuel line to the carburetor. This might also be dependent on the diameter of the fuel line, but I only used 1/4" ID lines. I think the air in the fuel line above the filter (introduced when the line is cut and the little bit of gas drains out) combined with the air in the filter cuts off the fuel flow at the very low pressures involved. Once the flow got started, I think any of the filters would flow enough to satisfy the demands of the S40/Savage, which only requires about 3 gph at full power. My worry would come if the fuel system were run empty (forgot it was in Reserve or Prime). From dry I would worry the filter might not restart flow. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/10/12 at 18:21:09 The main conclusion I reached, which will probably require further experimentation, is that none of the filters can be counted on to prime from dry unless the inlet is lower than the outlet, giving the air in the filter a chance to be pushed along the fuel line to the carburetor. & Thats an important contusion youve come to. Its just a bit counter intuitive ( Which is smartypants for "dont zaklee make sense when ya first think about it") but, once ya Do think about it,, well,, then its only slightly confusing.. but, it does make sense after a little thot, |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Oldfeller on 11/10/12 at 21:20:43 Say you have an empty filter, empty because you drained the system all the way (or you are running a vacsucker and it just did you dirty again). Now you turn on the gas by hitting the reserve (reserve on a Raptor, or hitting Prime on the stock vacsucker) and the gas flows down and starts to fill up the float bowl. It takes more time for the gas to flow through the needle valve than the fuel line, so the gas flow to the needle valve is more than enough and the gas begins to back up above the needle valve. At this point, the hose becomes a two way street through much of its length, passing displaced air up and gas flowing down. By definition, the volumes must be equal because of displacement, equal gas in and equal air out. So, during "fill up hose" phase the gas flow down is halved at each of the restriction points in the system. The filter cavity isn't a restriction as it is large compared to everything else, but the ID of the nipples is a restriction as the passage is smaller than the hose. Each bend is a possible restriction if it was allowed to pinch the hose down. The dual "both ways" flow issue ends when the hose is filled up, but the hose won't be filled totally until the bowl, long line, filter and short line are filled. How long does this take? On the stock vac petock, it takes a bloody long time with you fumbling around on finding Prime and all. Times of 60 - 100 seconds was typical on my machine after I got the gas going again in Prime (I could see it in the clear filter when it finally started to trickle and I could see when the filter filled up). And if you left the vacsucker in the ON position on your vac petcock it was really forever as the gas never flowed. My Prime worked, after a fashion -- but nowhere as well or as fast as the Reserve on the Raptor worked. On a Raptor, good gas flow was immediate and the system filled itself back up in 15-20 seconds, float bowl, filter and all. This was with a 1/4" hose and nipples. From a dead empty system, the bike is able to start running again when the float bowl gets full. Generally you can keep it running from this point, but with a vacsucker the bike seems to not like to run at full power until the fuel system fills up all the way. Back in my vacsucker failure days, I hated cranking on the starter, so I generally waited until the vacsucker supplied enough fuel to the point the fuel filter got half full before even trying to start it up -- it worked better that way. ================ The Math Involved area of a circle = pi times (the radius squared) 1/4" hose = .250" hose ID A = 0.0491 in2 5/16" hose = .315" hose ID A = 0.0779 in2 3/8" hose = .375" hose ID A = 0.1104 in2 So, if this initial flow disruption bothers you, opt for a larger hose size and fit the filter nipples accordingly. 3/8" filter nipples are available as is the 3/8" hose. 5/16" might be a better compromise as they fit the nipples on the petcock and the carburetor better than the 1/4" or the 3/8" hoses do. Going from my current 1/4" hose ID up to 3/8" hose ID can double my gas flow on fill up, which only offers an advantage really when I am filling the system up after a stall out as the needle valve can be fed happily by either hose size once the gas stacks up over the needle valve. And, since I Raptored, I don't have those pesky fuel out situations any more like I used to. My float bowl is full all the time now days. But for what it is worth, a 3/8" hose and filter can flow gas through the whole system at a rate that during the two way fill up period is about equal to the rate a 1/4" hose and filter can flow when completely filled. Because the hose volume is doubled though, you lose some time for hose fill accordingly, but your "fuel down" rate to the point of the needle valve is excellent all the time. The area inside the 3/8" hose is slightly more than doubled compared to the area inside the 1/4" hose. Expect to have more fun making the bends on the 3/8" hose as the wall thickness and extra diameter work against you on them bend zones. :) 5/16" hose is the best compromise, I think |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Charon on 11/11/12 at 07:13:16 I was not testing petcocks, vacuum or otherwise. I was experimenting with filters. And by the way it is a "vacuum petcock" and not a "vacsucker." "Vacsucker" is merely pejorative propaganda. I also point out that discussion of the petcock is "off topic." While I am being pedantic and obnoxious, I will also point out that it is not a "Raptor" but a "manual petcock" also used on Yamaha's line of Raptor four-wheelers. Since "raptor" also describes several birds of prey, I don't know whether Yamaha could trademark the name - but I bet they tried. Your theories about air moving one way and gas the other within the fuel line seem good enough, except that my observations seem to show the bubble of air completely blocking the fuel flow. A larger diameter line would help by giving more room for the fuel to get past the bubble. Surface tension seems to be involved, as well. Once the bubble moved completely through the fuel line and into the much larger diameter filter body, there was room for the fuel to pass around the bubble and flow immediately increased. The filter body never filled because the fuel flowed out the bottom as fast as into the top, and the air had nowhere to exit. My test setup had the filter hanging vertically from the line, with the inlet on top. Had there been restriction at the outlet (say a carburetor float needle) things might have differed. Still, the air in the filter body can only leave through one or other of the filter lines. Had my filter been mounted with the outlet on top (as I held it to "prime" it the first time) the air would be pushed out the outlet by the fuel entering the bottom. I suspect a completely dry filter will allow air to pass easily, while a wet filter will impede air flow because each pore in the filter is blocked with a "film" of gasoline. When the cold snap passes and I can work outside again I might try some experiments with that. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Grayowl on 11/11/12 at 08:20:30 Charon Posted : Reply #44 - Yesterday at 17:23:12 The main conclusion I reached, which will probably require further experimentation, is that none of the filters can be counted on to prime from dry unless the inlet is lower than the outlet, giving the air in the filter a chance to be pushed along the fuel line to the carburetor. This might also be dependent on the diameter of the fuel line, but I only used 1/4" ID lines. I think the air in the fuel line above the filter (introduced when the line is cut and the little bit of gas drains out) combined with the air in the filter cuts off the fuel flow at the very low pressures involved. Once the flow got started, I think any of the filters would flow enough to satisfy the demands of the S40/Savage, which only requires about 3 gph at full power. My worry would come if the fuel system were run empty (forgot it was in Reserve or Prime). From dry I would worry the filter might not restart flow. I found the Durlast FF7144DL (I had - made in China) has about 2.4 PSI of restriction across the filter media and with stock petcock you have to hold the outlet (open to atmosphere) higher than the inlet to get it to fill, so the air had some place to go. That is the same thing that Charon found with his testing. The restriction across the media and the air bubble in the filter are enough to cause the limited fuel flow issue that I was seeing on my bike. In operation the filter would flow once full of fuel (JOG told me that in one of his posts), but I was concerned about the media restriction if I would run out of fuel at some point. I found the Fram G2 (Oldfeller’s recommendation) has almost no restriction (less than .1 PSI) across the filter media. I installed a Fram G2 (made in Israel) on the bike and it was relatively fast to fill with fuel and has been working well on the bike for two tanks full of fuel so far. I did not intent to start a sh*t storm on the site, but I now have a better understanding of how some of these filters can impact the normal operation of the engine with the stock petcock in place. The Raptor may have a little bit larger I.D. diameter coming through the petcock and be able to deal with the air bubble better than the stock petcock. Thanks everyone with your input on my filter question and helping me getting the issue resolved. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by verslagen1 on 11/11/12 at 08:36:48 thanks for the sh!tstorm GO, these boys have so little tech to talk about lately. and this one so easy for the less wrench inclined to get involved with. [smiley=thumbsup.gif] keep up the good work! |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Oldfeller on 11/11/12 at 08:44:46 Grayowl, this was not a shite storm, it was quite polite actually. In reality, this discussion really didn't have much to do with you at all. You simply stumbled upon one of our standard discussion/war topics which got discussed some more and some experiments were done and some more progress was made. Progress made: Charon did gas flow testing and discovered new things that he didn't expect (and neither did anyone else). Experiments are always such fun that way -- we loves them, we do. We calculated a simple filter flow test based on the usage of the Savage engine at 1 cup per minute as being ample. We found all filters can easily flow this amount once filled -- but it points out another issue with the stock vac petcock running your carb out of fuel, the air flow back up the plumbing causes a low flow condition until the line is filled with backed up gasoline. GyroBob posted a new filter and a new installation method that has some real promise. This information was all added to the tech post and the 1/4" hose size was unrecommended with preference going to 5/16 and 3/8" hose sizes. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Grayowl on 11/11/12 at 10:06:50 Glad to hear it was not a sh*tstorm and I gave everyone a chance to think tech and some good discussion on the issue. I have learned a great deal from this site and got some good ideas also. I am new to world of thumpers and love the one I have, so glad I did not go back with a V Twin from my old days (30 years and two kids ago). More fun to ride and play with than previous bikes, better mileage too. ;D |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Dave on 11/12/12 at 08:44:08 I just want to comment about the "air lock' conditon. This is a completely valid concept that is common in the design of water distribution systems. When designing water lines we "must" include a fire hydrant or air release valve into the system at any high point in the system in order to bleed out trapped air in a system when filling it with water. What can happen is that the air that is trapped at the top of the system forces the water to flow under the air.....and it can reduce the capacity of the water system dramatically. If the slopes are steep - it is sometimes impossible for water flow alone to completely push the bubble out - and in an 8" diameter water line you could end up with only 1-2" of water flow under the bubble. I had always read about this and one day I actaully got to experience it. One of the small towns I work for had a water main break and after it was repaired - the Mayor called me as they could no longer get adequate water supply for the town. The system had worked fine for years.....but suddenly they could not get enough water into town. I came out and looked at where the break had occured and it was at the bottom of a hill. I found a fire hydrant at the top of the next hill and asked the maintenance department to open the hydrant and check for air.......and after flowing air and water out.....the flow into town was back to normal! I can see how the tiny inlet/outlet openings in some of the filters could cause a flow problem....especially when air is trapped in the filter housing. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Oldfeller on 11/12/12 at 15:20:57 Yup, with 3/8" hose and filter nipples you will have to go through the extra trouble of having some real clamps at the carburetor and the petcock, but in return for the larger hose size you get at least 1/4" hose size fuel flow at all times, even when you are passing air back up the system on a refill situation. The petcock nipple presents the key flow "roadblock" in this 3/8" system but there is no fix for that issue. This sorta marginalizes the advantages to the 3/8" hose and filter nipples, but it has to help to have only one restriction instead of 3-4 of them. 5/16" on hose and filter nipples is a good compromise as you can use simple spring clips on all the connections and make your key bends a little easier. 1/4" hose is simply a bad idea. Those filter nipples are TINY and when you cut them in half while moving some air the effective flow rate is pitiful. ================== The K&N style sideways thick matt media may pose more of a problem "passing air" as the surface area presented to the air isn't nearly as large as on a pleated paper filter. Plus the gas in a sideways pleated filter has the upper portion of pleats kept relatively "dry" to pass air more readily while the sideways matt of the K&N gets fully wetted each time by gasoline, making more of an osmotic air barrier out of the matt. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by Grayowl on 11/20/12 at 15:32:04 I found a filter that is available at almost any automotive parts place at a very reasonable cost ($2.50). It has no media restriction to speak of and pretty desent filtration at 12 microns. It fits up under the frame without any issues and flows good on the stock petcock. Ran the bike at high speed for 70 miles this afternoon without any fuel starvation issues. WIX - Fuel Filter Part Number: 33011 Line: WIX • 1 year limited warranty • UPC: 765809330115 Detailed Description WIX offers high quality, high efficiency fuel filters for automotive, medium and heavy-duty trucks, as well as farm, construction, mining and other equipment applications. Some features include: • Low initial restriction providing for proper fuel flow and long service life. • For fuel water separators, self venting drains allow for efficient and easy draining of water. • Materials, designs and construction that ensure WIX fuel filters provide excellent performance under all types of operating conditions. Style: Fuel (Complete In-Line) Filter Service: Fuel Height: 4.125 in. Outside Diameter (Top): 1.4 in. Micron Rating: 12 Inlet: ¼ - 5/16 Outlet: 1/4- 5/16 I have even added some restriction with my “u-turn” for the fuel line and it was fine. That was made out of 5/16 fuel line fittings. |
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Title: Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/20/12 at 15:47:48 I saw a pretty nifty lookin filter at the Yamaha shop in Longview. It was conical ( NO Not Comical) & had a built in 90. Fuel dropped in, then went out horizontally & the media is the same Crushed Brass lump lookin mess that ya find behind the inlet of an Old Rochester Quadrajet, IDK how fine it is, mite just stop boulders & smaller rocks.. |
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