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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1357999747 Message started by WebsterMark on 01/12/13 at 06:09:07 |
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Title: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by WebsterMark on 01/12/13 at 06:09:07 Rather than focus on specific weapons, shouldn’t we once again (or perhaps for the first time for others) consider the very basis of gun ownership to begin with? What does the 2nd amendment really and truly mean? Who or what does it protect? The Bills Of Rights for the most part, places limits on what activities government can restrict. So, is this amendment about the rights of the very few in this nation today who use guns to actually hunt for their foods? Is it about protecting the firearm choices of deer, duck or turkey hunters? Does it protect restrictions against the millions who use guns recreationally like skeet shooting, target practice, or just walking through the woods and plinking beer cans? Is that what the 2nd amendment protects? I think not. I think it’s much deeper than that. And I think it scares many. The ramification of limiting the governments power in restricting gun ownership has at times seemed to be illogical or in today’s world, downright impractical or dangerous. However, I’d also say limiting the government’s ability to restrict free speech or religion likewise seems illogical, impractical or even dangerous. I read today the American Taliban won his case and can now attend daily prayers alongside other imprisoned inmates. That seems absolutely ludicrous to me as does allowing a stupid little church to disrupt military funerals. But, these are what we live with in order to maintain the historical freedoms we have. The freedoms we have are not easy to maintain and sometimes the results are not easy to swallow. But I don’t think they are something we should not easily turn over either. I’d be curious to read other’s thoughts on what’s at the very heart of the 2nd amendment, what’s at the heart of the Bill of Rights as a whole. Do we really want to voluntarily limit further what we can and cannot do? What we can and cannot own? |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 01/12/13 at 12:05:18 WM - I am not a scholar of constitutional law. In fact, I found it difficult and confusing in law school, and that hasn't changed much 40 years later. So, I'll limit my comments to gun ownership and the 2nd amendment only. To me, it is clear that the American Revolution was basically a series of acts of treason, rebellion, and armed conflict by loose groups of citzens against the then all powerfull British Empire. Only later did the Continental Army actually come together and function as an organized army, with a command structure and all of the other indicia of a true army. So our founding fathers chose to preserve a mechanism that allowed citizens ot take up arms to protect themselves not only from robbers, muggers, burglars and other common criminals, but also from a tryannical government. That mechanism is to have an armed citizenry. The modern problem is much different from 1785. Then, armies and citizens had similar weapons; rifles and primitive handguns, except for the cannon, which ordinary folks didn't have. But a citizen "army" back then was on a fairly even footing with a governmental army in terms of available weaponry, again except for cannons. Today, the 2nd Amendment has lost most of this "anti-government" power, because obviously no group of citizens has tanks, fighter jets, attack helicopters, large artillery pieces and most of the other conventionla weapons of modern warfare, let alone atomic weapons. Congress and the courts have long ago enacted, and held constitutional, laws that prevent the average citizen from possessing RPGs, heavy machine guns, fighter jets ( except historical ones that are de-militarized ), tanks (again except historical and de-militarized ones ), attack helicopters, atomic weapons, and on and on. So, where does the 2nd Amendment really stand now? I don't know, but I do know that no longer can we say that the average citizen has to be in a constitutionally guaranteed position to protect himself from his gov't, and be in a position to take up arms against tyranny. I think it will all come down to reasonable restrictions. Is it reasonable that I cannot own a fully functional RPG, tank, or fighter jet? Of course it is. What about my owning a quad set of 50 caliber machine guns? I doubt many would say it would be reasonable. The problem with "reasonable" is that it is subjective. I personally have no fear that my shotgun, nor my 380 Webley are at risk of being outlawed. I also see no reasonableness in my owning a full auto fire M-16. Somewhere between those ends of the spectrum is "reasonable"; but precisely where, I can't tell you. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Trippah on 01/12/13 at 15:37:32 I think you are correct, and as noted by some the phrasing includes a well regulated militia -" regulates "which I almost suspect realy meant well organized and controlled (such as the militia in 1776 was organized by each town). ;D As you would see in Colonial Williamsburg, the town had an armory where much of the weeaponry was stored, not necessarily stored in each individuals' home. :D |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Midnightrider on 01/12/13 at 18:50:58 3.5% of violent crimes are commited by rifles. I dont know how many of those rifles can be classified as assault rifles. The rest are pistols, knives, baseball bats etc. Outlawing assault rifles is not going to make much of a difference in the violent crime rates. My heart goes out to the parents in Conn. I dont want to imagine what it would feel like to lose a young child. I could have taken two razor sharp bouie knives or a sword and done the same thing before the LEO's arrived. You cant outlaw insanity and the only way to stop evil is to fight back. Also shooting is a sport. Are we going to start outlawing sports? There are statistis everywhere that when the public is disarmed the crime rate goes up. Australia is a good example. I cant tell you what the 2nd amendment really means but common sense tells me if you take my guns away from me I wont have my guitar collection very long. There's no common sense in Washington, all they worry about is getting rich and relection. Our veterans fought and died for the right to be free. One of our freedoms is the right to arm and protect ourselves. Take our guns away and we become just like the countries we fought against. "The historical reality of the Second Amendment’s protection of the right to keep and bear arms is not that it protects the right to shoot deer. It protects the right to shoot tyrants, and it protects the right to shoot at them effectively, thus, with the same instruments they would use upon us. If the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto had had the firepower and ammunition that the Nazis did, some of Poland might have stayed free and more persons would have survived the Holocaust. Most people in government reject natural rights and personal sovereignty. Most people in government believe that the exercise of everyone’s rights is subject to the will of those in the government. Most people in government believe that they can write any law and regulate any behavior, not subject to the natural law, not subject to the sovereignty of individuals, not cognizant of history’s tyrants, but subject only to what they can get away with. Did you empower the government to impair the freedom of us all because of the mania and terror of a few? |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by WebsterMark on 01/13/13 at 05:16:42 Did you empower the government to impair the freedom of us all because of the mania and terror of a few? That is a beautiful phrase Midnight; thank you. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by bill67 on 01/13/13 at 05:26:28 I agree with Miss America, Miss Hagan,You shouldn't fight violence with violence,As far as putting guards in school.Sometimes young people come up with the right answer. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Midnightrider on 01/13/13 at 05:59:14 I'm beginning to think like Justin when he was 12. Something just aint right. There were video cameras outsibe the theater showing Batman and there was a video camera ouside the school in Conn. The police refuse to show these videos. Survivors of the movie theater claim tear gas canisters came from two differnt people at different doors. Helicopter footage clearly shows two men running from the Conn. school. One of them was caught and said to be a parent of one of the children. He should get father of the year award. The other one hasnt been caught or mentioned. If they were to release the videos of the theater or school now they've had plenty of time to alter them so it really wouldnt prove anything. The worshipers at the church that was shot up claim there were two armed men. One killed himself in the parking lot after being shot by the police. Case closed. I smell a rat. Just think of all the criminal organisations not to mention our own goverment who would love to see us unarmed. The Mexican Drug Cartel could drive across our land without worrying about being shot at. Taking away my means of protecting myself, home and family is tyranny at its finest. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Paraquat on 01/13/13 at 06:32:58 69666A606B666D616671646671030 wrote:
You forgot that the early American settlers were originally on a government funded mission. --Steve |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by bill67 on 01/13/13 at 07:07:46 What kind of guns did George Washington's 200 slaves carry to protected them selfs. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Paraquat on 01/13/13 at 08:33:23 Reparations have been made. How long until we're able to move on from something that occurred 400 years ago? You cannot use that as a counter argument for gun control because the government is still an oppressing force. --Steve |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Midnightrider on 01/13/13 at 09:06:50 You use the word gun control like any peson can legally own a gun. There are already 2000 gun laws already in the books. You cant stop evil with more laws. You've heard this before but you need to hear it again. More people were killed with baseball bats than guns. 3.5% of homicides were with rifles, not necessarily assault rifles.We dont have assault rifles. We have semi automatics dressed up like assault rifles. You really think outlawing so called assault rifles is going to stop mass killings. Most of the mass killers murder themselves so no law can be passed to deter them. Somebody as crazy as Lanza will just walk into school with a dynamite vest. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Paraquat on 01/13/13 at 15:07:23 1322312232362237430 wrote:
I meant to say 100. The 4 is right ion top of the 1 and my fat sausage finger slipped on it. The number of firearm victims (injured, wounded, fatalities all included) in 1993 was 1,248,250. That number in 2009 was 352,810. Are you kidding me? We dropped to nearly 25% in less than 10 years?! Show me any other statistic that did that. --Steve |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Midnightrider on 01/13/13 at 16:48:02 Good point Steve! |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/14/13 at 09:39:28 The right of the people to keep & bear arms shall not be infringed. It says that Yes, there is a preamble that causes some questions. BUT, deductive reasoning I apply there tells me that IF we could sit down with the Framers, that Preamble wouldnt say anything that would contradict with the part that simply states The Right of the People to keep & bear arms shall not be infringed. All thru the Constitution, the People have remained the same,The C is a POwer Limiter for the goobs, not the people. Who here believe the Framers said "The Federal Government gets to decide WHO the People are & the Right of the People to keep & bear arms shall not be infringed."? Who here believes the Framers said "Only the People in a State Militia are considered People & the Right of the people toblahdeeblahhblaahblaah blaahhh" Who believes the preamble, written by the same people who wrote all the rest of it, somehow contradicts with the part that says And the RIGHT of the People to Keep & Bear Arms SHALL NOT Be infringed... ??? |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by WebsterMark on 01/16/13 at 05:59:53 How many got this correct? Only a couple. The heart of the 2nd Amendment in the Bill of Rights is about the last line of defense of a free nation. Governments lose wars and get overrun or they turn against their own citizens. The freedoms given to the citizens of this nation 200+ years ago are the reason we prosper to this day. Yes, at times the day to day responsibilities of a free nation can be messy. Yes, it can be very hard, yes, it is often tinged with the both the good and the bad, but individual freedom is the fabric that produced us. You cannot undo one of the foundational bricks and expect to avoid sinking down just a little. You cannot, with a wave of a hand and a single signature on a piece of paper, change the definition of ‘the rights of the people shall not be infringed’. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by srinath on 01/16/13 at 06:32:45 734146575041566945564F240 wrote:
More of these random out of context mixed metaphors I see. Ron Paul wanted to repeal the 14th amendment. And all the Ron paul nuts glazed over that ... and now by regulating the second amendment all the repug nuts have their panties in a bunch ... Nice double speak. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by 12Bravo on 01/16/13 at 10:53:31 7A484F5E59485F604C5F462D0 wrote:
Well said. ALL OF THE 10 AMENDMENTS IN THE BILL OF RIGHTS ARE EQUALLY IMPORTANT. I've heard the argument that the 2nd was never meant to deal with modern firearms. We can say the same about the 1st since the founders never envisioned electronic communications. We better restrict the 1st to quill and paper. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by srinath on 01/16/13 at 12:05:47 Dude ... There is more than 10 amendments. And all of those have been threatened by various politicians over the last few years. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by 12Bravo on 01/16/13 at 12:31:56 787B0B3B283F26490 wrote:
I know there are more. As you can see I was talking about the Bill of Rights which contains 10. And you are right, politicians from both parties have and continue to attack our rights. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by srinath on 01/16/13 at 15:07:47 0F0C7C4C5F48513E0 wrote:
I know there are more. As you can see I was talking about the Bill of Rights which contains 10. And you are right, politicians from both parties have and continue to attack our rights. [/quote] Some of them deserve to get shredded. The 14th amendment has been used, abused and raped. It has attracted the trash like a 10c per can and bottle of michigan. That coupled with the medical insurance for all will bankrupt our country. Throw that out along with the 80 million illegals and their anchor babies. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by LANCER on 01/17/13 at 04:11:30 2011 FBI stat's 10,000+ deaths by firarms nationwide 300+ were by rifles of all types 33 were by "assault rifles" That is a "staggering" 0.33% by assault rifles Yep, making assault rifles unlawful sure does make a lot of sense, doesn't it ? ? ? ? What is not specified is what percentage of the total gun deaths occurred during the commission of a crime. My guess would be that it is more than 90%. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by srinath on 01/17/13 at 05:50:24 True lancer ... but the NRA wont let a sensible ban go through. Assault rifles and semi auto ones with high capacity magazines were the weapons of choice for whacko's in most of the shootings. Theater, sikh temple, AZ parking lot, University, sandy hook ... I saw that number @ 282 for 2012. Out of 19,000 gun murders. I am not sure if that includes justified. That is something under 1.5%. That would be the target of any gun ban if I were to write legislation. See most gun murders are in a way accidental ... as in they try to rob a convenience store, and the clerk puts up a fight. Its during the commission of a crime. That is going to be very very hard to stop. However those are all small size guns. Most - 98.5% of gun crimes, the criminal hopes to not use the gun. Actually I take that back, there is probably a few drive by's, gang related, and killings of snitches/informants and other similar. OK We're not gonna be able to stop much of all that. We should stop the 282 ... or reduce it drastically. A $100 bullet with $99 as a flat tax to the federal govt will have a choke out effect on all of it though. Those that did use it for self defence will get replacements without the govt $99 tax on them. Bullets have been stock piled. They will be useful to the owners, and useless to anyone else. It is worth something, you can secretly sell it, but since it wont be in factory sealed baggies, it will not get the $100 ... it could be worth a bit more than the original $ paid for it. That way no one gets a windfall ... and you have bullets for your current use. The NRA isn't going to let anything sensible happen. The Gun laws are 100,000 pages with 5,000 pages saying what cant be, and 95,000 pages saying what the loopholes are. Its enshrined in the constitution. We can watch these whacko's do these things every month. However the country has shifted away from the NRA's position as a whole. The whole RMoney vs Obama debate here was very close, out in the real world, it was done and dusted by 11pm election night. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by WebsterMark on 01/17/13 at 05:58:05 Out of 19,000 gun murders Where did you get 19,000 gun murders? |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by bill67 on 01/17/13 at 05:59:59 When I was young and growing up in the 1950's,All the young boys liked 22's, lever action,single shots,pumps.Todays kids wouldn't want a candy a$$ gun like that,They would want a AK type gun.Ok what will the kids 10 years from now want.Theres has to be a stopping point somewheres along the line. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Paraquat on 01/17/13 at 06:12:33 I still like bolt action .22's... but I imagine it's like eating out or being married. You don't want the same thing every time. Sometimes you want to step up your game a bit and sometimes you don't even want to leave the house. Sometimes I drive slow to work and sometimes I crack the throttle and fly. --Steve |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by srinath on 01/17/13 at 07:54:21 6F5D5A4B4C5D4A75594A53380 wrote:
I read it somewhere - But I cant find it now, and I think since I am seeing around 9,000 - it may be the total of all murders. The 282 is the count of all the massacres - that I can find all over the place. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by ZAR on 01/17/13 at 07:54:36 7E4F5C4F5F5B4F5A2E0 wrote:
That's true Steve. And that's why shotguns are so much fun. You can buy one shotgun and with choke tubes,interchangeable barrels (both long and short)pistol grips,scopes,fiberoptic and laser sights and ammo ranging from #8 bird shot to buckshot and sabot deer slugs you can shoot a different gun every weekend. And in 20ga even your girlfriend and kids can use one. If only marriage was so adaptable :( |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by WebsterMark on 01/17/13 at 15:30:42 If only marriage was so adaptable Bitter, party of one, your table's ready; bitter, party of one..... I hear you bro... |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by LANCER on 01/20/13 at 00:35:02 262D28287273440 wrote:
And why is that ? Perhaps if the movie makers and video game makers would choose a different subject the mass audience would not want this type of gun. After all, the movie makers in particular are some of the loudest advocates of gun control ... as long as they are free to have body guards who carry an arsenal with them and are exempt from the gun control laws. We of course ... the dumb sheep ... NEED to be controlled because we cannot be trusted with guns like the "Important people". |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by LANCER on 01/20/13 at 00:51:56 6362797E716478100 wrote:
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by srinath on 01/20/13 at 02:27:38 Well you said the NRA supports all the laws ... and these laws are on the books. A full on database on who cant own a gun as well as a private sale database update. It has been circumvented with loopholes ... but it does exist. I think a 100 buck bullet will work far more effectively than a registry. There will be quite a few gun nuts who wont register ... However they wont let Benny franklin bills lying around either. It will accomplish all the good of the tightest gun control laws you can write, and do none of the bad. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by srinath on 01/20/13 at 02:42:15 [quote author=6362797E716478100 link=1357999747/15#21 date=1358430624]True lancer ... but the NRA wont let a sensible ban go through. What is sensible ? Your idea or my idea ? Since I have more experience with guns then I choose my idea. That would be a classic case of the "nuts running the nuthouse" Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Starlifter on 01/20/13 at 13:06:37 +1000 |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/21/13 at 05:08:19 30312A2D22372B430 wrote:
MMMmHHHmmm,, I think I get it,,heres the logic Lefty Lawmaker says Well,, One thing is certain, the NRA will not allow a reasonable piece of legislation to go thru, SO, Ill write a Reeeetarded peice of legislation & see if that gets traction! SOOO, Lets ban RIFLES!!! Rifles, used in fewer killings that hands & feet! LAME!, still, Sri |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by srinath on 01/21/13 at 12:33:01 No one is banning rifles. I want to tax bullets. I want to ban small concealable guns and high capacity magazines and armor piercing bullets. In any case, tax a bullet. Refund the bullet, when used in true self defence. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Paraquat on 01/22/13 at 06:17:38 686972757A6F731B0 wrote:
Quote:
There are roughly 10,000 firearm related jobs here in CT including Colt, Mossberg, Ruger, Stag Arms and then companies that produce magazines like OKAY Industries, New Helvetica, Ronin Corp. Assume head of household and assume 2.3 children per family. 10,000 adults will lose their jobs and 23,000 kids and suffer as a result. Uncool. --Steve |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/22/13 at 09:02:17 He doesnt even know whats happening, |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by bill67 on 01/22/13 at 09:19:08 Thats as dumb as,We shouldn't fine a cure for cancer,Look how many doctors would be put out of work. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/22/13 at 09:26:56 It would be interesting to see what Bills talkin about |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Pine on 01/22/13 at 15:32:35 566463727564734C60736A010 wrote:
I waitied kinda late... sorry: To me, the second amendment was created because the 13 states had just thrown off a tyrant King and were extremely wary of running head-long into a new tyrant "central government". Indeed the idea as I see is that power given to the central government does not include the abilty of the central government to disarm the citizens that put them in power. What this meant then is now of course very different than what it means today... and yet... it still holds of power in the hands of the poeple. Those that say, ( rightly) that given current laws the people can no longer take on the central government. True, we dont have A_bombs, or planes, or tanks. But I dont think the threat of an a-bomb being dropped on NYC just to take out one guy is realistic either, nor a tank, nor fighter jet... though the new drones... well. The point isn't that one man or even an army of men could take on the entire US arsenal... but they cant be spirited away ... quietely either. He cant just be beaten by one FBI agent with a club. No... any act of the government must be loud... guns must be used.. and people will die. AND that does still have power. I find it comical that even you "gun ban" nuts cant get away from talking about the guns. Why are you discussing 22's. The OP was about rights... about the constitution. The less access any law-abiding citizen has to a gun... the less access all americans have to the rest of the constitution.. life, liberty and the persuit of happiness. The checks and balances will be broken ( more so than now). Those that would give up liberty for security will have and deserve neither: B. Franklin |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Starlifter on 01/22/13 at 16:46:50 Paraquat you are just parroting more NRA hysterical bullsh!t to drive you and others to such panic that you will flood the NRA with your hard earned money, and then go out and buy another trunk load of guns and a few thousand more rounds of ammo. Confiscating ALL magazines holding more than 10 rounds, pistols included. Confiscating magazines indeed. And just how is the state going to go about enterinng your home and confiscate magazines. Do you not see how you are being used by this kind of nonsense? Like this: Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) addressed supporters in a frantically toned email on Monday, warning them of a looming effort to snatch up their guns. "You and I are literally surrounded. The gun-grabbers in the Senate are about to launch an all-out-assault on the Second Amendment. On your rights. On your freedom," reads the opening of the email, according to The Hill. "They're coming for your guns," the email exhorts. This is in Article I, Section 8: Powers of Congress To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress... We all know that the Second Amendment says this: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. If Article I says the government shall be responsible for organizing and arming the Militia, which means among other things deciding what guns the Militia should have, and the Second Amendment says that this Militia is necessary to the security of a free State, could it then not follow that the government can decide it should not be equipped with weapons like Bushmasters and AK-47s? Any workable ban on these guns must get away from what doomed the last one. There was a long list of appearance things: if it has a flash suppressor and a bayonet lug it's illegal, but no bayonet lug and it is. It didn't address functionality. Simply write the ban to eliminate: Semiautomatic rifles with detachable magazines Shotguns with detachable magazines Pistol magazines that when seated protrude from the base of the grip more than the diameter of one cartridge ...from being manufactured or imported 30 days after the date of enactment. Prohibit ammunition sales over the Internet. Prohibit non-Federal Firearms License holders from ordering guns online. The easiest way to accurately write the legislation is to not use the term "assault weapon" in it. Most right-wingers I run into hardly have a pot to piss in... It's not the millionaires out there posting their right-wing bullsh!t. It's generally the under educated, easily fooled who constantly vote against their self interests. ...And just why are those of the gun culture so absoultely TERRIFIED of everything?? The government, neighbors, other people, their own shadows?? I just don't get this depth of fear... |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by LANCER on 01/23/13 at 04:01:17 2223383F302539510 wrote:
I'm a nut for believing what the Constitution says ? Do you believe in the Freedom of Speech ? It says that too. Are you a nut for believing what the Constitution says about that ? |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by bill67 on 01/23/13 at 05:41:32 Yes I believe in freedom of speech too.The next time I go to the dollar store,I'm going to tell the cute girl at the check out she has a nice a$$ and tits too,Do you want to f--k.See theres a limit to the 1st and 2nd amendment of whats right to do. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Paraquat on 01/23/13 at 06:10:49 56716477696C63716077050 wrote:
No, I am not parroting anything here. These are actual laws proposed by my state's governor. --Steve |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by srinath on 01/23/13 at 11:17:59 State level, city level and county level and gun free zone Bull does not work. Your state may be run by a retard ... or your city or your school ... Whatever is going to be done has to be nation wide, and we need to get canada and mexico to go along. Then we need to wait for the excess to get itself flushed out. IMHO the fastest thing that will work is a $100 a bullet. Bullets being made 1 @ a time, put in numbered vacuum packed baggies and $99 go to the fed off the top. The flush out will happen very very very quick. Gun nuts will instantly lock up all their ammo. We then have achieved the 2 steps we need in rather rapid succession. Again 1 state cant tax a bullet ... they will just go next state over. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Starlifter on 01/23/13 at 11:20:05 "Confiscating ALL magazines holding more than 10 rounds." Show me word for word (transcript) where he says this....perhaps the wording was "limiting" new magazines to ten rounds or less (like it used to be). It's a psychological ploy. The word "confiscate" is one more buzz word designed to elicit a knee-jerck reaction of fear, anger and panic among those who's gun collecting goes beyond what is considered by most to be 'normal'. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by LANCER on 01/24/13 at 02:53:33 36372C2B24312D450 wrote:
So what do you do when those running DC are retards as well ? That's called "out of the frying pan and into the fire". |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by LANCER on 01/24/13 at 03:01:07 654257445A5F50425344360 wrote:
Nope, it's been all over the news about the new law just passed in NY, rammed through almost over night, which apparently violited their own law of requiring so many days for review before calling for a vote. Their new law limits ammo magazines to 7 bullets and does not grandfather all the magazines in current existence. So all current magazines holding more than 7 bullets must be turned in to be destroyed. One of their ERRORS was to exempt police from the new law. As of now, the police are breaking the law along with everyone else. OOOOOPPPPSSSSS. ::) |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by LANCER on 01/24/13 at 03:09:55 242F2A2A7071460 wrote:
You have every right to say that if you wish. She has every right to kick your b__lls up into your throat in response as well. That is not a "RIGHTS" issue, it is a common courtesy & wisdom issue. Come on dude, surely you can frame a more logical response than that. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by srinath on 01/24/13 at 06:01:34 78757A7771662623140 wrote:
You have every right to say that if you wish. She has every right to kick your b__lls up into your throat in response as well. That is not a "RIGHTS" issue, it is a common courtesy & wisdom issue. Come on dude, surely you can frame a more logical response than that. [/quote] Hell no, kicking you balls isn't her right, her right is to call the cops and have your balls hauled off to jail. There is plenty of restrictions to the first amendment including this bill mentioned. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by srinath on 01/24/13 at 06:04:16 626F606D6B7C3C390E0 wrote:
So what do you do when those running DC are retards as well ? That's called "out of the frying pan and into the fire". [/quote] That wont matter ... city wide bans inherently are flawed, there is the next city over where there is no ban. Nationwide bans and getting canada and mexico to play along is inherently not flawed. Your local retard may try to stop the air from crossing over into his county. Not gonna work. As a continent we have a good chance. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Paraquat on 01/24/13 at 06:08:02 To Bill67: The right to swing your fist ends where the other's nose begins. Yes. Confiscate. Yes. Police are now considered to be in violation. Sorry that I can be accused of "parroting" LANCER on that. Srinath: The problem with a nationwide law like that is that it's unconstitutional IMO. It violates the 11th amendment. Similar to how marijuana has been a schedule 1 drug all this time just because the federal government says "It's illegal because it's a schedule 1 drug" with no backing. Look how well that's playing out recently. --Steve |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Starlifter on 01/24/13 at 07:00:44 "Confiscate"....Bullsh!t. So a warrant will be issued for every house, barn, shed, garage, safe-deposit box, and woodpile in America so that your magazines can be confiscated? By who? UN troops in black helicopters? And what else? round up and arrest all the cops and ship them off to Gitmo?....Such nonsense. THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING! Shouted 'Chicken Little'. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Paraquat on 01/24/13 at 09:08:22 032431223C3936243522500 wrote:
According to the NDAA you can. I'm still waiting for your reply over there. --Steve |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by LANCER on 01/24/13 at 12:35:57 6263787F706579110 wrote:
You have every right to say that if you wish. She has every right to kick your b__lls up into your throat in response as well. That is not a "RIGHTS" issue, it is a common courtesy & wisdom issue. Come on dude, surely you can frame a more logical response than that. [/quote] Hell no, kicking you balls isn't her right, her right is to call the cops and have your balls hauled off to jail. There is plenty of restrictions to the first amendment including this bill mentioned. Cool. Srinath. [/quote] If Bill said that to the girl at the register she could rightfully claim that he was assaulting her, and therefore would have the right to kick his b_lls anywhere she wanted, in self defense of course. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by LANCER on 01/24/13 at 12:38:23 6E5F4C5F4F4B5F4A3E0 wrote:
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by houstonbofh on 01/24/13 at 12:48:44 7B5C495A44414E5C4D5A280 wrote:
No, just people who have pissed off the powers that be, but have not broken any laws in doing so. They get harassed until the find some obscure law to bust them on, and this is another one. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Starlifter on 01/24/13 at 14:51:19 Fear and paranoia run deep in the gun culture... |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Trippah on 01/24/13 at 19:50:23 No right is absolute, if they were we wouldn't murder the murderers (I am not against executing evil folks necessarily)....the 2nd amendment, again, insists that a well regulated militia but that seems to be lost. The thought that every fool should carry weapons into schoools or movie theatres is insane (I think). I also do not like automatic weapons, especially handguns because they are hard to use well. Our Connecticut MoM of whacko brough jr to the range so he could learn to shoot well, (is she NRA's Poster Mom)..which brings up interesting issues of weapons control. We are blessed living in a great place and can't manage to live well and satisfied.....sad really. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by srinath on 01/25/13 at 07:09:33 Yea there will be all sorts of garbage you have to muddle through courtesy the NRA if you tried to touch any of this with a "Law". What you need to do is just to raise federal taxes on bullets. And make them cash only purchases. None of which will violate the constitution. You also tax gun powder, the shells and the rest of the crap you need to make a bullets. The rednecks will then make bullets and we'll have a lot of gun accidents ... that will get the hard core nuts out of the gene pool and we'll be all better off. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/25/13 at 10:36:18 7B5D465F5F4E472F0 wrote:
Look at the commerce clause, see the word Regulate? NOW, Haul your brain Back in time. Remember, the Framers were working to create a government that put the POwer in the hands of the People.,right? The word REGULATE may well not have meant "Controlled in every way by a superior power" but may have more or less meant "Kept Regular:" No State was allowed to put tariffs on others that would crimp thew ability of the people to trade. YOu REally think they put something in that would SO completely contradict The RIGHT of the People to Keep & Bear Arms SHALL NOT be INfringed? |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Starlifter on 01/25/13 at 17:01:20 It's a matter of interpretation JOG. The way I read it it's ABSOLUTELY clear to me that the 2nd means "A Government Controlled and Well Regulated Militia". I can see no other interpretation of this amendment. You obviously see something entirely different. That's where we stand. That is how we see it. There are thousands of other people who see it my way, and thousands of other people who see it your way. No amount of argument or reasoning will ever sway our opinions. That's the way it is. Further discussion / argument on this issue is futile. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Serowbot on 01/25/13 at 17:12:35 1C3B2E3D2326293B2A3D4F0 wrote:
That pretty much sums up the entire Tall Table... ;D... |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/26/13 at 11:06:19 If the goobs are the deciders, then there is no right of the people to keep & bear, its, at that point, a privilege. The Framers had experience with tyrannical goobs & made the Citizens the Sovereigns. The Right of the People to Keep & bear arms shall not be infringed. Why would they contradict that in the preamble? Explain WHY they did that, dont just tell me they did., |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by WebsterMark on 01/26/13 at 12:46:42 It's a matter of interpretation JOG. The way I read it it's ABSOLUTELY clear to me that the 2nd means "A Government Controlled and Well Regulated Militia". I can see no other interpretation of this amendment. I would agree that two people can read the same thing written by a third person and come away with two different understandings. However, in that case, the writer is the one who gets to says what he meant by what he wrote. So, look at what not only Madison said about the 2nd Amendment of the Bill of Rights, but read what others said about it at the time it was written. Based on that, it seems clear the 2nd amendment at the time was specifically about citizens being armed to protect themselves from their own governement and from other forces should the government army (or militia) be overrun. Now, if you want to re-define that, fine. I'm not opposed to a nationwide discussion on a 'new 2nd amendment', but just remember that you would need to pass a new amendment to the Constitution to superceed or possibly remove the original 2nd amendment. I don't see that happening. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/26/13 at 13:25:02 So, in the first sentence they said the power to control weapons lies in the hands of the government, then they said The Right of the People to keep & bear arms shall NOT be infringed? Riiiight.. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by WebsterMark on 01/27/13 at 06:47:32 Here’s another way to look at it; the Preamble starts with 'We the People'... Who are the People? Are they government approved groups such as the militia or those in the navy or those in the Continental Congress? No, we all agree when it says People in the phrase We the People, it means all the citizens of the colonies. So why would the word people mean something different when it says the right of the people to keep and bear arms... mean something different? |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Midnightrider on 01/27/13 at 08:29:09 "The Right of the People to Keep & bear arms shall not be infringed" No gun law is legal as far as type and where you can carry! "Shall not be infringed"Ben Franklin said if you give up freedom for security you deserve neither. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by srinath on 01/27/13 at 09:32:08 4F6B666C6B656A76706B666770020 wrote:
Yes Benny fanklin was a great man ... he had 100 slaves. That's why he's on the $100 bill. Someone said it ... dont make it correct or true, or even that we are applying it in the right sense and spirit. For that statement in a way let me provide a corollary - You're interpreting he implied that he wanted to be armed. He may have meant his ability to order people around to say "clean my toilet" and his dedicated slave went and cleaned it ... and now franklin says ... man being free is the best, I would not want to be enslaved ... I want to be free. Those that would give up freedom to be safe and secure like a slave deserve neither. In those days, the slave masters took care of their slaves, in a way like they did their horses or cows. Maybe he meant that. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/27/13 at 10:49:55 I knew you had nothing to say as soon as you went to He owned slaves. Youre not talking about the words of the 2nd now. Youve lost. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by srinath on 01/27/13 at 11:18:32 081711160B0C3D0D3D05171B50620 wrote:
What Franklin said isn't in the second amendment - if you give up freedom for security you deserve neither. <- That is not part of the second. I was not talking about the second amendment at all. Read my post. It was just about that statement of Franklin. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Starlifter on 01/27/13 at 12:25:42 I think the one thing that bothers me the most in this "guns for all" any time, any place It's my right! meme is this: I carried a weapon on the job for 43 years. I Had to pass one of the most intensive firearms & qualification courses in the federal system to become an air-marshal. And for my entire career I had to qualify in day long sessions at the range quarterly, with additional practice and training between. I will forever be aware of the deadly purpose and meaning and consequences of owning a firearm. Now what we have here is a system where any paranoid stupid half-wit can go to a gun show and buy more firepower than the average combat soldier. He or she can in most instances leave the gun show, and buy whatever he wants from some guy's trunk in the parking lot, take it home, go out to the back 40 with a couple of six-packs, blast away at a few beer cans, and declare himself "fully qualified" to sally forth into the world armed to the teeth and ready for action. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by WebsterMark on 01/27/13 at 14:16:23 He or she can in most instances leave the gun show, and buy whatever he wants from some guy's trunk in the parking lot, take it home, go out to the back 40 with a couple of six-packs, blast away at a few beer cans, and declare himself "fully qualified" to sally forth into the world armed to the teeth and ready for action. and yet hundreds of thousands if not millions, do this with no bad results. There are millions and millions of semi-automatic 'assault rifles' in the US today and how many are used in crimes? The percentage is shockingly small. There are about a thousands things more important to work on than another gun band that will accomplish nothing. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by srinath on 01/27/13 at 15:43:02 152720313627300F233029420 wrote:
Which is why we want to not let them into the wrong hands. You want to bear arms, you need to lock it up, so your retarded son (as in the sandy hook case) doesn't get into it. That will be fought tooth and nail as infringing on rights ... so they need to be made to lock it up ... by making it cost $$$$$$ ... Yea you can bear arms ... just as soon as you pay for em. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by LANCER on 01/28/13 at 04:16:43 How about we put a $100,000 tax on every car sold, and make the tax retroactive so everyone who now owns a car will have to pay as well. If you don't pay the tax you don't drive. This would immediately reduce the 40,000 + people killed every year in auto accidents to perhaps less than 1,000 per year. Just think, 39,000 fewer auto deaths ! Now there's a plan !!! That would raise much more money for the fed gov't and everyone would be happy, yes ??? Let's don't forget drunk drivers. They are responsible for way more than half of all auto accidents and deaths. If caught driving under the influence they should be shot on site. That will provide incentive for people to obey the law and be good obedient citizens. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by bill67 on 01/28/13 at 04:54:26 How about shooting any president that starts a war on site,That would save many lives and much much money. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Retread on 01/28/13 at 08:43:48 I guess the question should be, "How does the second amendment relate to the present time?" .. It really does not, many say the real meaning for the second amendment was to limit the need for a standing Army, some say it was put in place to protect government from outside influence, and some say it was in place to allow the overthrow of a government out of control, or personal protection of said government. Let me put it this way, we Americans are the biggest bunch of paranoid pussys in the world... If the second amendment is supposed to eliminate fear, it isn't doing a very good job... I'm more scared of my fellow citizen than the government, nut cases, rightwingnuts, mentally ill, and conspriracy theory's abound.. We even think that our military is defending our freedoms, like ANY outside power would even think of invading this nation? They would have to be more crazy than us, there is not a power out there that crazy... :-? |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Paraquat on 01/28/13 at 09:20:33 474A45484E59191C2B0 wrote:
As Draconian as it sounds we went from a time where if a cop found you drunk driving he'd buy you a coffee and drive you home to sleep it off to a time where you lose your license instantly. ...and it worked... So why not change the way you approach the problem instead of an outright ban on driving or drinking? --Steve |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Paraquat on 01/28/13 at 11:53:35 537461726C6966746572000 wrote:
http://naugatuck.patch.com/articles/gun-hearing-shaping-up-to-be-showdown-c4bf1adc In addition to organizing a rally in Hartford on Feb. 14, CAGV has proposed legislation that: Quote:
--Steve |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by srinath on 01/28/13 at 12:14:02 525F505D5B4C0C093E0 wrote:
The first idea actually is in place in singapore. Its nearly as steep. It costs like 10K to buy the bike, and 10K to get plates. (what I forgot to say here was that, singapore has a great public transport system, and wiht this tax, we will see a huge market for public transport, it will be so great, you wont like the result ... all busses all the time baby). It will prevent all drivers ... including the drivers for good ... the ambulances and cops and those that drive to say a hospital to work. Now that makes perfect sense to curb drunk drivers if you find drunks jumping into cars (owned by other people - as in stealing) and killing people ... so that happens to your car a lot ? (Once again, lets talk about anything but guns as killers) Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by LANCER on 01/29/13 at 03:43:50 Your idea of extremely high taxes on bullets would result in fewer deaths from gun violence so I offered a way to save MANY MORE LIVES by high auto taxes and drunk driving laws. The analogy was appropriate for this subject. The example of Singapore was interesting but their goal was to virtually eliminate cars from the street in order to force everyone on to public transportation, with the result being to have cleaner air, since metro ares in Asia typically have horrible pollution problems. Once again, guns don't kill people ... People kill people. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by srinath on 01/29/13 at 06:07:05 7E737C7177602025120 wrote:
Guns dont kill people. OK not counting the ones who have been hit with a gun till they died. Bullets kill people. Your analogy of cars being hit with a 100K tax will work if people are stealing cars enmasse and committing murders with them. And as soon as you produce that evidence, I'll tax em 100k, heck a million. Now the last many cases have been people getting guns stealing or killing the owners and taking them. Cars and people in cars kill people ... as an accident. Y'know gas has to cost more, something like 30 a gal. That way people will be driving less. That will force everyone to work from home, or prevent people from commuting 50 miles 1 way etc. Guns are out there, they cant be confiscated. The owners wont lock em up. I cant see any other way to let the self defence thing work for guns, but not criminals. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Paraquat on 01/29/13 at 06:15:26 I'm not able to work from home. Why should I suffer the consequences because of someone else's decision. (See what I did there?) --Steve |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by srinath on 01/29/13 at 09:37:38 7B4A594A5A5E4A5F2B0 wrote:
You might want to take it up with the $100,000 per car retroactive tax proposed here then. As for me, I work from home unless I am training or meeting some one etc. I could push comes to shove pay the $2 and hop on the bus, OK I have to ride a bicycle the 1.5 mile to there ... but yea, I wont care. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Paraquat on 01/29/13 at 11:12:22 31302B2C23362A420 wrote:
You might want to take it up with the $100,000 per car retroactive tax proposed here then. As for me, I work from home unless I am training or meeting some one etc. I could push comes to shove pay the $2 and hop on the bus, OK I have to ride a bicycle the 1.5 mile to there ... but yea, I wont care. Cool. Srinath.[/quote] That's fantastic for you. What about me and people like me who have to commute to work? I live on a bus route. If I opted to ride the bus to my old work I'd have to wake up at 5:30 and wouldn't be home until 8:30. In addition to that local businesses would suffer as I would be forced to pack my own lunch. They surely aren't going to hire a delivery driver for $10,000 and hour so they can afford their own vehicle. That was when I worked 15 minutes from home (I live near an on ramp). Now I work 35 minutes from home on a good day's drive and the bus doesn't head in this direction. Now what are my options? Edit: Old work: 4.8 miles, estimated 11 minutes New work: 15.2 miles, estimated 24 minutes (took me 35 this morning with "slippery conditions") --Steve |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by srinath on 01/29/13 at 15:06:11 7746554656524653270 wrote:
I am not saying 100K a car tax Steve. I am talking 100 bucks a bullet - you dont happen to use any of those on your way to work do you ? And even so, is it justified homicide ? If not, sorry you need to be locked up, if yes, you'll get the bullets free. OK so then take it up with the guy that wants to tax your car 100K. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Midnightrider on 01/29/13 at 15:31:16 Motorcycle might kill ya, drive safely and defensively. Take a MSF Course. You might not get killed. A gun might kill ya. Get a gun ,go to a concealed safety gun class. Practice safely, ya may not get killed. Its simple as that, none of ya can change the laws or the Constitution, now get on with your life. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by srinath on 01/29/13 at 19:49:41 43676A606769667A7C676A6B7C0E0 wrote:
Yea but your gun wont be killing you ... more than likely. Some other idiots will. OK they should go to training and class ... OK, but then their nutcase kid may get it and blow you away. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: What's at the heart of the 2nd Amendment Post by Midnightrider on 01/29/13 at 19:57:57 When I said a gun might kill you I meant someone elses gun. Get you a good quality SMALL Ruger, S+W, Glock or whatever as long as it is good quality and dependable and take concealed carry class. Learn your gun inside and out and practice regularly safely. Might save your life. All the bitchin and moaning on this forum aint gonna change anything, the neighborhood you live in, the gun laws or the Constitution. Its up to you to protect yourself. If someone breaks into your home and you're unarmed its like not wearing a seatbelt. I never locked my doors till the 90's but this is 2013. |
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