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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Why the Gun is Civilization /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1360345854 Message started by Midnightrider on 02/08/13 at 09:50:54 |
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Title: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by Midnightrider on 02/08/13 at 09:50:54 Why the Gun is Civilization. By Marko Kloos Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it. In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some. When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender. There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we’d be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger’s potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat–it has no validity when most of a mugger’s potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that’s the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly. Then there’s the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don’t constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that’s as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weightlifter. It simply wouldn’t work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn’t both lethal and easily employable. When I carry a gun, I don’t do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don’t carry it because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn’t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation … and that’s why carrying a gun is a civilized act. |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by Serowbot on 02/08/13 at 11:08:27 Civilization,.. would be not needing a gun,.. because you live in a civilized society... The gun,.. is merely an alternative to physical size, for domination... Instead of the biggest guy,.. it's the biggest gun... That's still survival of the fittest... with guns replacing brawn.. Totally opposite of civilized... |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by Midnightrider on 02/08/13 at 12:39:35 Take our guns away and see how long our society remains civilised. |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by bill67 on 02/08/13 at 12:57:09 293F28352D38352E5A0 wrote:
+1000 |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by Midnightrider on 02/08/13 at 14:15:13 Listen to Don Henley's song Dirty Laundry. Thats all this Sandy Hook news story has turned into. I pray for the families of the children but there's 300 million of us that havent shot anybody. Its time to stop punishing us and stop punishing us now! The only way to fight evil is to fire back. Take away that ability and we're all sitting ducks. There's gang violence in every major city and its too late when the cops arrive. Thats why I'm against large magazine legislation. I'm all for stricter background checks. Our goverment wants to police the whole world and we cant make our own cities safe. Taking away law abiding citizens guns isnt gonna do it. All the ink and paper in the world isnt going to keep guns out of criminals hands. I said it in another post, anyone my age and has seen what has happened to this country knows whats going to happen. Six months of political bullshit and they'll tax the hell out of guns and ammo if we're lucky. |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by bobert on 02/08/13 at 16:32:02 There is and always has been evil and evil people in the world. These people are not interested in living within societal laws. Their MO is the more powerful preying on the less powerful. No amount of "civilization" will turn some of these evil people into normal, upright, law-abiding citizens. I can see where the gun is capable of creating a more level playing field. I wish the world wasn't this way, but it is. |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by bill67 on 02/08/13 at 17:47:32 030E03041315610 wrote:
With tanks it would be a lot easier to level off the playing fields. |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by Midnightrider on 02/08/13 at 18:15:30 597D707A7D737C60667D707166140 wrote:
With tanks it would be a lot easier to level off the playing fields.[/quote] Tanks would be good in Chicago, Detroit, anywhere gangs prevail. It would be nice to create our own militia to take em out, Law enforcement and the goverment arent even trying to, they're too busy trying to police the rest of the world. We have thousands of soldiers in Japan and Germany, we won those wars a long time ago. The big cities dont have enough money to hire the needed officers to, protect the citizens and we have thosands of goverment paid military men with nothing to do occupying peaceful allies. My wife was on a gang task force for 2 years, went to seminars all over the country. Gangs are here in my town and you wanna take my guns away and I'll be safer. Dream on. |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by LostArtist on 02/08/13 at 18:35:16 the gun equals force, deadly force, implied deadly force, it does NOT remove force from the equation, it at best, if both people have a gun of equal capability, it can equalize the force making reason the remaining factor to decide the situation but only after the force has been equalized by the gun, it takes the persuasion to the top where force is needed then because neither person has the upper hand, then persuasion is resumed, and then, there's still the threat that the other person still wont' be persuaded and will use the implied force first and then you are still screwed, guns do NOT "civilize" a society |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by Midnightrider on 02/08/13 at 18:47:57 7563746971646972060 wrote:
The uncivilised, the hard dope dealers who deal in crystal meth, all forms of cocaine and sell to kids, gang members, wife beaters and so on have to be taken out of a civilised society. Are you good enough with a slingshot to do it? You guys act like uncivilised criminals dont exist. |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by Paraquat on 02/08/13 at 22:37:20 God created man. Samual Colt made them even. It levels the playing field. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by LANCER on 02/09/13 at 02:48:19 2A3C2B362E3B362D590 wrote:
So since people in prison do not have guns, that is a civilized society ? Great, go live there for just 30 days and then come out and tell me it is a civilized society. |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by LANCER on 02/09/13 at 03:02:41 0F2C30370231372A3037430 wrote:
You are correct, a gun does not remove FORCE from the equation, but it does tend to equalize it. Would you rather be equal or on the weaker side of a FORCE CONFRONTATION ? Do you think if you are confronted by someone stronger & meaner than you (or a bunch of them) and are intent on hurting you, do you really think they are going to stop after just one punch ? Don't be foolish dude, if they really want to hurt someone they will stomp you into the ground; near death likely, if not dead. Do you think you will stop them through persuasion ? They simply take that as a sign of weakness and will enjoy stomping you all the more. We have animals in our society, and they ONLY thing they respect and will yield to is POWER. |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by bill67 on 02/09/13 at 05:11:09 575A55585E49090C3B0 wrote:
So since people in prison do not have guns, that is a civilized society ? Great, go live there for just 30 days and then come out and tell me it is a civilized society.[/quote] They weren't civilized when they went to prison,Why should they be civilized in prison ::) |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by Serowbot on 02/09/13 at 10:10:48 You guys are now arguing a different point than the original article was making.... The thesis was that guns make a society civilized... you are arguing the need for guns as an equalizer, precisely because this country is not civilized... PS... Lancer,... in prison, the guards have guns... again, this hardly qualifies as civilized... opposite, in fact... |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by LostArtist on 02/09/13 at 11:15:41 3E333C3137206065520 wrote:
You are correct, a gun does not remove FORCE from the equation, but it does tend to equalize it. Would you rather be equal or on the weaker side of a FORCE CONFRONTATION ? Do you think if you are confronted by someone stronger & meaner than you (or a bunch of them) and are intent on hurting you, do you really think they are going to stop after just one punch ? Don't be foolish dude, if they really want to hurt someone they will stomp you into the ground; near death likely, if not dead. Do you think you will stop them through persuasion ? They simply take that as a sign of weakness and will enjoy stomping you all the more. We have animals in our society, and they ONLY thing they respect and will yield to is POWER. [/quote] but it still comes down to who is more likely to use force first, that's why the cold war worked, Mutually Assured Destruction here, it takes all sense of respect from the persuasion aspect and replaces that respect with fear, how does fear affect your efforts or persuasion? oh and those "animals" they can get guns too so either way you end up on THEIR level, you are not civilizing society by the proliferation of guns |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by Midnightrider on 02/09/13 at 14:38:26 Our major cities are becoming uncivilised. Whats it gonna take to make them safe, reasoning? Ok you guys gotta cut this sh!t out. Or force, we'll drop your gangs in your tracks and you'll never see daylight again. |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by LANCER on 02/10/13 at 04:25:52 7655494E7B484E53494E3A0 wrote:
You are correct, a gun does not remove FORCE from the equation, but it does tend to equalize it. Would you rather be equal or on the weaker side of a FORCE CONFRONTATION ? Do you think if you are confronted by someone stronger & meaner than you (or a bunch of them) and are intent on hurting you, do you really think they are going to stop after just one punch ? Don't be foolish dude, if they really want to hurt someone they will stomp you into the ground; near death likely, if not dead. Do you think you will stop them through persuasion ? They simply take that as a sign of weakness and will enjoy stomping you all the more. We have animals in our society, and they ONLY thing they respect and will yield to is POWER. [/quote] but it still comes down to who is more likely to use force first, that's why the cold war worked, Mutually Assured Destruction here, it takes all sense of respect from the persuasion aspect and replaces that respect with fear, how does fear affect your efforts or persuasion? MAD only works is both sides are RATIONAL If a bad guy knows I have a weapon he will think about the risk before deciding whether to attack of not...it is all about ME protecting MYSELF. oh and those "animals" they can get guns too so either way you end up on THEIR level, you are not civilizing society by the proliferation of guns ahhh...the animals already have weapons...... In a confrontation I absolutely want to be on their level at least, if not several levels above. Animals only respect power and if you don't have it then you are the next meal. If these concepts do not make sense to you then YOU are on THEIR menu.[/quote] |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by mpescatori on 02/12/13 at 00:03:13 Guns are merely the one technological step forward from the knife. Next step, powder-propelled taser bullets ? It's not (only) about how you handle street gangs and petty crime,. it's how you can work your economy in such a way there are better things to do than hang around with a life expectancy of 28 ... Do we have street gangs here in Italy ? Yes, but they are not "gangs" by your definition, they are small groups of (un)armed Rumanians, Albanians, Ukrainians, Gypsies, and Italian petty thugs who live on a day-by-day basis. They are dealt with by the Police, and sometimes a homeowner or jeweller will be armed and shoot (back). By our laws, if the criminal is running, you cannot shoot him in the back, that's murder. Sometimes it's organized crime who deals with street thugs. As a sad anecdote... Years ago arabic immigrants were roaming the streets, drinking, getting drunk, and being a general annoyance to the general public. Then a team of three ganged upon a young chinese mother who was carrying her baby in her arms; they raped the woman and murdered both. The cityfolk were livid and demanded proper measures to be taken; the Police investigated but the perpetrators, although more or less positively identified, were nowhere to be found. They found them, alright, about ten days later, hanging by the wrists and cut to death in thin slices, in an almost ritual way; word of mouth had it was a chinese ritual killing, a rituial revenge. The result? The chinese were molested again, and the arabs suddenly started behaving. :-X |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by LANCER on 02/12/13 at 03:59:48 55485D4B5B594C574A51380 wrote:
CAUSE & EFFECT |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by Paraquat on 02/12/13 at 06:17:35 I see nothing wrong with this story. You want to act like an animal you'll get treated like an animal. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/12/13 at 06:55:33 If I have a gun, I can protect myself from animals, BUT, the 2nd amendment wasnt about Hunting or self defense, since they were as taken for granted as breathing, |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by srinath on 02/12/13 at 08:06:34 302F292E33340535053D2F23685A0 wrote:
Correct JOG - the 2nd was to overthrow a tyrannical govt and to defend the country when suddenly attacked by a foreign power when in times of peace we didn't have a military. Good story though. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by srinath on 02/12/13 at 18:00:12 40646963646A65797F6469687F0D0 wrote:
If you take all the guns away ... it will be very civilised ... except the gun nuts who are dependent on their gun cos they dont have a spine. You take some of the guns away ... yea then you would not be vert civilised, the ones that lost the guns will be the weakest and the ones that need them the most. For starters I wont even want the guns taken away. I would like to have all the guns and ammo very safely locked away so it wont get into the wrong hands. Nothing should get stolen, or pinched or get "lost" ... each bullet is a potential dead body. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/16/13 at 10:15:40 Im SICK of STUPID EVERY OUNCE OF Statistical Data PROVES more guns in socioety & fewer rstrictions EQUALS Less Violent CRIME,, FBI stats Scream it, History Screams it SHUT YOUR DUMB Ass up. |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by bill67 on 02/16/13 at 10:38:05 11 year old kids takes a gun to school to kill a girl,Now that is civilized,At its best.We need more guns so all the little kids have one. |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by srinath on 02/17/13 at 08:40:09 091610170A0D3C0C3C04161A51630 wrote:
That's BECAUSE nra HAS blocked ALL the DATA that SHOWS otherwise. YOU need TO pull YOUR dumb HEAD out OF your STUPID a$$. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by bill67 on 02/17/13 at 09:15:03 2F2E35323D28345C0 wrote:
That's BECAUSE nra HAS blocked ALL the DATA that SHOWS otherwise. YOU need TO pull YOUR dumb HEAD out OF your STUPID a$$. Cool. Srinath.[/quote] +1 |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by srinath on 02/17/13 at 16:00:04 524D4B4C51566757675F4D410A380 wrote:
Alright - you fool - http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/12/gun_violence_research_nra_and_congress_blocked_gun_control_studies_at_cdc.html OK yea slate is a librull rag ... OK fine look it up yourself. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by Midnightrider on 02/17/13 at 16:40:59 Domestic violence and mental illness causes white people to go off the deep end and start shooting. Drugs and gang violence causes Latinos and Blacks to start shooting. Thats the way it is period. No law is gonna change it. |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/17/13 at 19:28:47 Go read the FBI stats.. IF theyre not available, it wasnt the NRA that blocked them, moron, the NRA's position is made STRONGER by the stats,GOD wadda dumbshit |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by srinath on 02/18/13 at 16:46:57 697670776A6D5C6C5C64767A31030 wrote:
You fool ... NRA has blocked the data and research - they blocked that CDC study just as 1 single example they have done it to a 1000 more, no amount of you calling me names or SHOUTING IN UPPER CASE is gonna change that you dip$hit. What a moron. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by srinath on 02/18/13 at 16:52:59 Try this fool - http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/the-blockade-on-science-on-gun-violence/ http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-13/gun-lobby-helps-block-data-collection-by-crimefighters.html http://www.sacbee.com/2012/07/29/4668327/gun-lobby-blocks-violence-studies.html http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/01/executive-order-nra-should-fear-most/61004/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/31/nra-guns-tobacco-research/1859385/ http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/26/opinion/etzioni-guns http://bangordailynews.com/2012/12/31/health/nra-backed-obamacare-provision-restricts-doctors-in-asking-about-gun-use/ http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/08/10/160412/commentary-nra-prevents-funding.html https://www.change.org/petitions/stop-the-nra-s-block-on-gun-research http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/02/07/nras-bill-to-ban-anti-gun-lobbying-would-cripple-anti-smoking-programs/ OK moron. There is a 1000 more. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Why the Gun is Civilization Post by srinath on 02/18/13 at 17:03:51 Oh yea not just blocking information - its also active propogation of lies - like this, which I have read even here - I will look for it in a min - National Rifle Association (NRA) Continues to Feed Its Readers Demonstrable Lies and Distortions Thoroughly debunked years ago, the gun lobby’s favorite research – a 1995 study by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz that reported an astounding 2.5 million defense gun uses (DGU) each year in the United States. Yep, you read it right; 2.5 million DGUs PER YEAR! The Kleck study claims that 2.5 million times per year, someone uses a gun to defend themselves. That’s more defensive gun uses than happened in WWII in Europe in 1944. The Kleck study is so flawed the only thing it measures is the wild imagination of gun owners. I will look, but I have seen that 2.5 million number in a post here. Cool. Srinath. |
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