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Message started by nrausch on 03/13/13 at 09:07:19

Title: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by nrausch on 03/13/13 at 09:07:19

Greetings Gents!

I ordered a raptor petcock from ebay, drained the tank, took the old petcock off, and as I was putting in the new one, realized that the small connector nozzle that connects to the gas line is too small to fit the gas hose.

Is this common, is there an adaptor, does that nozzle screw off and is it replaceable with a larger nozzle?

Or is this just the wrong petcock? Otherwise the screws into the tank and the seal are all spot on...

This is what I received:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/271104963437?item=271104963437&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME:L:OU:US:3160&vxp=mtr

Thanks for any wisdom!

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/13/13 at 09:24:34

Id get a new piece O gas line thatll shove on the carb AND on the new petcock & call it good.

But, when you say the petcock nozzle is too small,, how Much too small? Would a hose clamp get it? Its kinda hard to get a really good, ROUND crimp on stuff that small.

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by nrausch on 03/13/13 at 09:34:22

It is so small that it fits inside the old hose without touching any of the sides.

I was worried about getting some new hose that fits the petcock, but then would be too small to fit onto the carb.

I don't think a hose clamp would be able to squeeze it enough to make a nice tight fit. But I guess that's worth a shot if there's no better solution.

Thanks!

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/13/13 at 09:38:38

Naaah, Im with you,, If its so loose it doesnt even touch, a clamp is gonna bunch it up, like a belt on pants that are Just too big,,I cant imagine such a tiny fuel outlet on the petcock,, sounds DUMB,, but,, if thats what it is, thats what it is. Id go to the parts store & take the gas line with you, & an accurate measurement of the petcock nozzle or the petcock itself. Someone can help you get something put together.

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Serowbot on 03/13/13 at 09:40:45

It says it's the right one,.. but, it may be a from a Raptor 350, or 250...
They are a smaller outlet,.. and the one I have is on a shorter stem that required filing a small divot in the tank seam to clear...
I did make it work,... but, swapped to a correct size later...

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by jcstokes on 03/13/13 at 11:29:18

Had a look at your EBAY thing and note that your petcook is from an ATV, it was also a $13 one, I saw a $29 one which was also for a Raptor 660 and the outlet looked larger.

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by paulmarshall on 03/13/13 at 12:43:33

I agree with jcstokes, I did the same thing once. >:( Because I hadnt used it they refunded me. :) Maybe you can swap it.

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/13/13 at 14:07:13

What he said,,

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by rockah on 03/13/13 at 14:09:22

the description looks the same to me.
~~the second picture matches the part number.~~
found the part number in this guide: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1251932429/1

1 (wrong): http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Yamaha-YFM660-Raptor-ATV-Gas-Fuel-Tank-Switch-Valve-Petcock-2001-2005-/181067234403?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a2872bc63&vxp=mtr
2 (ALSO WRONG!!): http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fuel-Gas-Petcock-Valve-Switch-Pump-2005-2004-2003-2002-2001-Yamaha-Raptor-660-/180997910666?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a2450f08a&vxp=mtr

Part number: 5LP-24500-01-00

http://i.imgur.com/hmzhEEB.jpg

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by nrausch on 03/13/13 at 14:49:04

Thanks guys!

I ordered the correct one, and am sending the other back.

Glad to know this rather than trying to rig up some kind of custom hose.

Thanks again!

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Dave on 03/13/13 at 16:10:52

They even make a similar looking petcock for a 50 and 80cc bikes with the small tube. (Don't ask me how I know).

Maybe they copied the wrong petcock and only thought it was for a 660.

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Super Thumper on 03/14/13 at 16:34:05

The correct rRaptor petcock is for 660 Raptor. The ones for a smaller engine size may not flow enough fue for your 650 Savagel. The pic shows the OEM petcock next to the 660 Raptor petcock so you can see the difference in the fuel outlet size. The Raptor 660 petcock requires a 1/4" fuel line....the OEM petcock uses the OEM 5/16" fuel hose. The fit on the Raptor petcock is a little loose so use a 1/2" worm clamp as shown in the pic. I sell these petcocks and include a worm clamp AND a vacuum cap to plug the vacuum port on the OEM carb with each petcock. I sell these on my website www.windsorcycles.com.

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Dave on 03/14/13 at 18:24:12

Super Thumper:

What you have is not a factory Yamaha Raptor Petcock. The Yamaha petcock does have a 5/16" nipple and it fits the original fuel line with the original spring clamp. It also has a brass extension tube.

You must have gotten one of the chinese knock offs.......

The factory petcock is part number 5LP-24500-01. The nipple measures 0.316" on the tube and 0.359" at the flared portion. A 5/16" fuel line fits very snug on the nipple.

Here is a thread I did on the factory Raptor petcock.
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1340021926

And here are photos of of the Yamaha Raptor petcock.
http://i47.tinypic.com/2u8cht2.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/5o5et.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/nd7lnb.jpg

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by mikey2004 on 03/14/13 at 18:42:02

I just installed the raptor 2 weeks ago. had the same problem. I just used a worm gear connector and tightened it as much as I could until I got a good seal.

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Super Thumper on 03/14/13 at 18:50:07

I just got these from a supplier a few days ago so I will check this out tomorrow when I get to my shop. I do have a genuine Suzuki Raptor 660 petcock to compare and will report the results this weekend along with pics. If it rurns pouyt the fuel outlets are indeed smaller on my aftermarket Raptor 660 petcocks they are going back! Thanks for the info.

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Boofer on 03/15/13 at 05:57:00

Correct Raptor is 2003 Yamaha Raptor 660 YFM 660R. Part number is 5LP-24500-01-00.

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Super Thumper on 03/15/13 at 08:25:54

It looks like I have the wrong petcocks from my supplier.....they are going back.

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Serowbot on 03/15/13 at 10:21:46

3628212D232C302B2A440 wrote:

I do have a genuine Suzuki Raptor 660 petcock to compare and will report the results this weekend along with pics. If it rurns pouyt the fuel outlets are indeed smaller on my aftermarket Raptor 660 petcocks they are going back! Thanks for the info.

ST,...
It's a Yamaha Raptor 660 petcock.. you are looking for...

The batch you are selling is for a 250/350 Yamaha Raptor...
They are too small on the outlet, and too short to clear the tank...

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Super Thumper on 03/16/13 at 13:50:48

I have in my possession a NEW Yamaha YFM660 Raptor petcock part # 55X-24000-02 that I bought from an ebay seller a few months ago. After calling the Yamaha dealer it turns out the so-called Raptor 660 petcock I got from ebay is actually for a Raptor 80. I include a pic here to compare the one I got from ebay and the one I got from my wholesale supplier. Except for the plastic tube versus the brass one they are identical yet BOTH the ebay seller and my wholesale supplier say these petcocks are for a Raptor 660. BEWARE!! The fuel outlet as described by the other responders is accurate. The correct Yamaha part number for a Yamaha YFM660 Raptor is 5LP-24500-01-00.
I confirmed this with the Yamaha dealer over the phone. It has the larger 5/16" diameter fuel outlet and will work on the Suzuki Savage. Thought the other petcocks look edientical the fuel outlet is smaller (1/4" ) and may work until you do some get low on fuel OR use the throttle heavilly requiring more fuel. Since I have one of the smaller petcocks from the ebay seller I intend to try it out on the road (I can't send it back, it's been too long) I'm curious to see how it works.

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Super Thumper on 03/16/13 at 13:56:04

I want to thank all the folks who brought the Raptor petckock to our attention...it has saved me much embarrasment (and refunds) and I am sure it has helped others to beware of the sellers on ebay especially who are selling the smaller ones. MOST of the sellers do NOT mention the fuel outlet size or in most cases the Yamaha part number and this is where I got caught buying the wrong one.

Once again....THANKS to all :)

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Oldfeller on 03/17/13 at 07:01:26

3628212D232C302B2A440 wrote:

http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/Raptor_Petcocks_Comp1.jpg

Hmmmmm ..... "Except for the plastic tube versus the brass one they are identical".

Not really all that identical, now are they? One of them has more of the extended shank that will help it fit past the weld up flange on the gas tank and only one would provide some of the room between tank flange and knob for glove covered fingers to turn the tap easily come winter time.

Neither of the petcocks shown in the picture above are a true stock Yamaha 660 petcock. Neither have the full length shank the real one has.

The real Yamaha 660 petcock looks like this.

http://i47.tinypic.com/2u8cht2.jpg

Never pay attention to what a ebay vendor says something is, they either don't know what the differences are or they are making wide latitude assumptions about "interchangeability".

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Super Thumper on 03/17/13 at 10:11:03

Thanks for all the info and the great pics. I am sending all my newly purchased petcocks back to my wholesale supplier and will get the correct ones this time. No matter how old I get I find I still learn something new every day. Thanks for all the help :)

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Dave on 03/18/13 at 06:03:24

OK.....I have been overthinking this a bit.....but it is what I do while driving or doing other mindless chores.

I doubt that the biggest restriction in the fuel system is the outlet tube of the petcock. When I did the "Chaptor on th Raptor" post that is located in the Technical Section.....I found that the Raptor Petcock flowed far more fuel that the Savage can use at full throttle when the tank is full. I also learned that as the fuel drops and gets nearer to the top on the inlet tube.....flow drops dramatically. When you only have a bit of fuel above the inlet pipe there is very little fuel pressure (weight of fuel) above the pipe and the inlet screen is only partially submerged......with any petcock the full throttle fuel flow will not be available.

It may well be that the outlet pipe size (for original equipment) was more a function of the inlet pipe on the carb than fuel flow is. I suspect the biggest restriction in the petcock is the internal valve parts and the size of the holes in the rubber disc that sits betwen the valve handle and body. I believe that these holes are smaller that the inlet or outlet pipes.......I also suspect that the biggest restrictiion in the entire system is probably the flow through the needle and seat in the carb.

I have the folliowing factory Yamaha OEMpetcocks to measure:

660 Raptor, Part Number 5LP-24500-01-00
350R Raptor, 350X Wolverine, XVS650, Part Number 21V-24500-11-00
YFM 50 & 80 Raptor, Part Number 55X-24500-02-00

While I suspect the 350 Raptor petcock ...which also fits the XVS650 will flow just as well as the 660 Raptor one....it does have the short stem and will interfere with the bottom lip of the Savage Tank. I bought this petcock to work with my GT550 tank converrsion where I don't need the long stem. If it flows enough fuel for the XVS 650.....I suspect it will flow enough for the Savage.

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Oldfeller on 03/18/13 at 06:56:55

Dave, remember that Charon's tests had to do with refill rates from an empty fuel filter and empty fuel lines, the recovery period where air was flowing up the lines at the same time the trickle of fuel was flowing down. His discovery was that when the lines and fuel filter were full of air, recover to a full state was very slow.

During recovery, the flow volume of air going up the lines must be equal volume to the fuel going down and the line and fuel filter is a "two way street passing only 1/2 fuel volume" until the volume above the float needle is all solid fuel again. The volume of air that must vent up through the lines and the petcock nipple includes the line volume and the fuel filter volume.

While a quarter inch line/nipple may not be the restriction point of the entire system (I agree the float bowl/valve is) the recovery time is about doubled by using quarter inch hose/nipples. 5/16 is a better hose size as it recovers almost twice as fast as 1/4. 3/8" hose is better yet as it recovers fastest of all.

Remember, during the recovery period (the half fuel flow period) the 1/4" line could barely supply the float valve at normal low throttle. This is part of the reason people report such cobby running after a low bowl episode caused by the vac petcock.

Once the bowl is full and the fuel flow is sold fuel, all hoses and nipples can work OK for a stock engine, but since the vac petcock keeps running the bowl low and keeps putting air in the fuel filter and lines once again you are in a constant recovery state and the small hose size struggles to keep up or to make up the air volumes with the recovery two way flow.

End moral of the story was to get rid of your vac petcock and stay with 5/16 or larger hose sizes if you wanted to feed a high performance engine with no air in line hiccups.

Using this thinking, raptoring with a 1/4 nipple petcock kinda half defeats the purpose of raptorizing in the first place. When you raptor, you are seeking improved fuel flow to keep the bowl full at all times as you feed an engine that can demand half again more fuel flow at full throttle compared to a stock engine.

Intentionally selling a limited raptor that cannot properly support a modded engine is something a hop up shop shouldn't do. Especially when you sell ported heads and other hop up stuff and your name is SuperThumper. That kinda clashes a bit with the name, don't you think?

The guys that designed the OEM carburetor put the 5/16 nipple on it for flow reasons, putting anything smaller than that upstream is putting a restriction on the entire system flow (which is why the oem petcock matched the inlet on the carb and why we matched it with the Raptor sizing).

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Dave on 03/18/13 at 07:27:28

OF:

I had not considered the hose/air bibble/fuelfilter relationship in the system. I certainly can see how a smaller nipple/hose size could make that condition worse. Escpecially when you look at how thick some of the nipples in the plastic fittings can be - and even on the petcocks the nipples can be a thin drawn tubing or a machined brass nipple that has much less of an ID for rhe same sized OD.

We have a sink drain here at the office that reminds me everyday how trapped air can ruin flow. When you are rinsing the dishes the water barely drains out the sink......the when you think nothinng is going to happen a few bubbles come up through the drain and the flow suddenly begins and the sink drains. It is a small "bar" type sink and the strainer and basket are very restrictive and it traps air just beneath the sink.....there is not enough water flow to push the bubble down and too much flow to let the bubble come up through the incoming water.

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Blinky on 03/18/13 at 07:37:53

air was flowing up the lines at the same time the trickle of fuel was flowing down.

OF
Question. What role do the two carb vent lines play? Is not the bowl vented to prevent just this problem?

Thanks and good hunting

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Dave on 03/18/13 at 07:47:22

2D2A3C2525490 wrote:

The problem was that the fuel flow was not rapid enough to push the air bubble down - the air was trying to go up the fuel hose while at the same time fuel is trying to go down. The air and fuel had trouble pasing by each other in the restrictive areas where the size was reduced in the nipple and fittings.

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Oldfeller on 03/18/13 at 07:54:53

Blinky, they vent the float bowl.

The float bowl is AFTER the float needle valve and it plays no part in the venting of the fuel lines and the fuel filter air volume, air which must bubble up through the fuel lines and petcock nipple and then up into the gas tank.

Gravity puts a pool of gas in the drilled passages right over the float needle valve, so air can't move downstream through the needle valve. Air has to go up, being lighter than gasoline.

We are concerned with this because while this air is moving up these lines only half the fuel flow can move down the lines (the volumes must be equal).

What surprised us all was how durn long this air took to make it's total trip, and how crappy the fuel flow was during this time (not enough to keep the engine going right). And when the bowl got low and the lines emptied out again, well, the cycle started all over again.

When people report a vac petcock "ran me out of fuel" episode, note that they always report very cobby running for the next 10-20 minutes as they struggle to get home or to a gas station. That is what this is.

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Blinky on 03/18/13 at 08:09:17

OF,
Thanks for the detailed explanation. I now think i understand the issue. You don't have to tell me 12 times; 11 usually does it. 8-)

Good hunting

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by RAVAGE-SAVAGE on 03/25/13 at 08:52:07

This link for the "RIGHT" petcock is ****WRONG**** Got it today...very small outlet. >:(

http://i.imgur.com/hmzhEEB.jpg[/quote]

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/25/13 at 09:06:40

This is why I took my petcock up to the counter & paid for one, face to face. No, I didnt save $5.00,, Nor did I get a puzzle in a box.

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Oldfeller on 03/25/13 at 09:08:42

The Swedish newbie that posted that set of pictures and links meant well, but the brutal truth is the Ebay sellers don't know enough to claim "compatibility" or not, and they certainly don't list details like outlet size.

Try to send it back to him if he claimed it was a Raptor 660 petcock, explaining if it doesn't have the larger outlet then it ISN'T a Raptor 660 petcock, but is something else.

Ebay has a dispute methodology you may threaten him with -- generally this dispute process thing means the absolute death of the Ebay vendor so generally they will give you your money back before attempting that process.

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Super Thumper on 03/26/13 at 06:44:12

This looks like the ones i bought from a wholesale supplier....when i got them I took one to the Yamaha dealer to compare to a "GENUINE" Yamaha Raptor 660 petcock. The fuel outlet is smaller on these knock-off petcocks, the same size as a Raptor 80 fuel outlet. I had to send 20 of these back to the manufacturer and they are STILL arguing about a refund. Sorry you got burned as well...the best way to handle this is to file a complaint with ebay about this seller. I looked into the seller...they are from China...lots of luck.

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/26/13 at 07:24:17

495650574A4D7C4C7C44565A11230 wrote:

This is why I took my petcock up to the counter & paid for one, face to face. No, I didnt save $5.00,, Nor did I get a puzzle in a box.

&, after reading even MOre of the delightful events some have encountered, Im gonna say I did Good!
My recommendation? YOure out some $$$ & some time, Id say youre odds on for getting nothing back unless you go to your credit card company & dispute the charges that way. Hoping for a refund from someone who knows that what they sold wasnt the same as what they said it was? Probably a bit like trying to get a refund from the guy who sold ya the bridge.

Best bet on satisfaction? Dispute the charges. Contact the credit card folks. They can UNpay those people,,,at least Ive had some help in that area, but the people who got UNpaid were in the usa.

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by hotrodbobber on 05/02/13 at 11:48:31

Hi there, im having a similar issue,, ive got a damaged seal on my raptor 660 fuel tap, but i cant find a new one, all the listed ones are much thinner and larger diameter, does anybody recognise this seal ???
I also have the 350 fuel tap and that has four holes and not the three, as i was going to swap them over !!

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Serowbot on 05/02/13 at 11:55:59

I believe that's called the Mr.Bill gasket... :-?...

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Oldfeller on 05/03/13 at 05:23:06

Oh No !!!!

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/K-L-Supply-Fuel-Petcock-Rebuild-Kit-18-2727-/00/s/MjM1WDM1MA==/$T2eC16ZHJHQE9nzEy9tRBQ9)k9U(ig~~60_12.JPG

K&L Supply Fuel Petcock Rebuild Kit 18-2727 for $3.98

Do watch out for them $10 shipping charge sorta guys -- they makes it a toss up for buying a whole new petcock complete. And then there are the sleezy ones to watch out for that say the picture may not be representative of the actual item sold, and then you punch in the kit number listed and find out it is for a car .....

Ebone is such a crap shoot now days.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/K-L-Supply-Fuel-Petcock-Rebuild-Kit-18-2727-/170975795014#vi-content

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Oldfeller on 05/03/13 at 05:32:40

Who knows? Since nobody puts any sizes on these things you could put your $3.00 down on this one with free shipping and take you a cup of Starbucks coffee level risk that it might work.

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Bikers-Choice-Replacement-Petcock-Valve-Gaskets-3-Hole-Style-/00/s/MTE0WDEwNA==/z/9wAAAMXQlUNRMjCf/$T2eC16FHJGwE9n)ySd30BRMjCfWy4Q~~60_35.JPG

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bikers-Choice-Replacement-Petcock-Valve-Gaskets-3-Hole-Style-/390359935347?hash=item5ae343e973&item=390359935347&pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

Title: Re: Raptor Petcock Issue
Post by Dane Allen on 05/03/13 at 11:57:49

I avoided all this by taking the advice of the veterans on this site and bought a genuine Yama part through Amazon. $27 and change and installed at the 900-950 mile mark for that oh-so-sweet long-tern satisfaction that you can only get from putting the right part in the right place very early on. I will never have to worry about this for the life of the bike. Versy camchain adjuster is in two weeks.