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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Chase Snowden DOWN! /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1373004655 Message started by justin_o_guy2 on 07/04/13 at 23:10:55 |
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Title: Chase Snowden DOWN! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/04/13 at 23:10:55 HE is a bad man for telling the truth. BUT,, it is a CRIME to lie to Congress. its on the books, folks,, and THIS GUY LIED,, so, who is in trouble? the one who told the TRUTH! Clapper Says His Denial of Mass Data Collection Was a True Statement, a Noble Lie, and an Honest Mistake. Pick One. Jacob Sullum|Jul. 4, 2013 12:59 pm Office of the DNIOffice of the DNIThis week Director of National Intelligence James Clapper released a June 21 letter in which he apologized for his "clearly erroneous" answer to a question from Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) about mass data collection by the National Security Agency. This represents Clapper's third explanation for his failure to tell the truth, and for all I know he is coming up with a fourth even as I write. He might be better off if he picked one and stuck with it. Here is the question that Wyden posed at a March 12 hearing before the Senate Intelligence Committee: Last summer the NSA director was at a conference, and he was asked a question about the NSA surveillance of Americans. He replied, and I quote here, "the story that we have millions or hundreds of millions of dossiers on people is completely false." The reason I'm asking the question is, having served on the [intelligence] committee now for a dozen years, I don't really know what a dossier is in this context. So what I wanted to see is if you could give me a yes or no answer to the question: Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans? And here is Clapper's answer: No, sir. Wyden knew this was not true, because as a member of the intelligence committee he had been briefed about the NSA's then-secret database of all domestic telephone records, collected under a controversial interpretation of the PATRIOT Act. So Wyden gave Clapper another chance: Wyden: It does not. Clapper: Not wittingly. There are cases where they could inadvertently perhaps collect, but not wittingly. Wyden: All right. Thank you. I'll have additional questions to give you in writing on that point, but I thank you for the answer. Clapper's explanation for this misrepresentation has evolved since it first came to light as a result of the recent revelations about the NSA's surveillance programs. At first he said the exchange with Wyden was about email content, as opposed to telephone metadata. "What I said, " he told National Journal on June 6, "was the NSA does not voyeuristically pore through U.S. citizens' emails." Since Wyden asked about "any type of data at all," and since the word email was not even mentioned during the hearing, that description was clearly false. In an interview with NBC News two days later, Clapper effectively admitted that he lied to Wyden, saying he gave the "least untruthful" answer he could to a question dealing with classified matters. (If Clapper was concerned about revealing classified information during an open hearing, wouldn't declining to answer have been less untruthful?) In his June 21 letter, which is addressed to Senate Intelligence Committee Chairwoman Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), Clapper backs away from that admission, pleading honest confusion instead: I have thought long and hard to re-create what went through my mind at the time. In light of Senator Wyden's reference to "dossiers" and faced with the challenge of trying to give an unclassified answer about our intelligence collection activities, many of which are classified, I simply didn't think of Section 215 of the Patriot Act. Instead, my answer addressed collection of the content of communications. I focused in particular on Section 702 of FISA [the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act], because we had just been through a year-long campaign to seek reauthorization of this provision and had had many classified discussions about it, including with Senator Wyden. That is why l added a comment about "inadvertent" collection of U.S. person information, because that is what happens under Section 702 even though it is targeted at foreigners. That said, I realized later that Senator Wyden was asking about Section 215 metadata collection, rather than content collection. Thus, my response was clearly erroneous—for which I apologize. While my staff acknowledged the error to Senator Wyden's staff soon after the hearing, I can now openly correct it because the existence of the metadata collection program has been declassified. Clapper implies that he was surprised by Wyden's question, and he states that his staff "acknowledged the error to Senator Wyden's staff soon after the hearing." Those claims seem inconsistent with this June 11 statement by Wyden (emphasis added): When NSA Director Alexander failed to clarify previous public statements about domestic surveillance, it was necessary to put the question to the Director of National Intelligence. So that he would be prepared to answer, I sent the question to Director Clapper's office a day in advance. After the hearing was over my staff and I gave his office a chance to amend his answer. Now public hearings are needed to address the recent disclosures and the American people have the right to expect straight answers from the intelligence leadership to the questions asked by their representatives. So did Clapper make an accurate statement, as he claimed in his June 6 interview with National Journal; give a deliberately misleading answer in the service of national security, as he claimed in his June 8 interview with NBC News; or give what he thought was an accurate answer to a question he mistakenly believed Wyden had asked, as he claims in his June 21 letter to Feinstein? All three of these things cannot possibly be true, and probably none of them is. Clapper's noble-lie explanation implies that he refused to acknowledge the NSA's telephone-record dragnet because it was classified; it would be more accurate to say the program was classified so that officials like Clapper would not have to acknowledge it. http://reason.com/blog/2013/07/04/clapper-says-his-denial-of-mass-data-col?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reason%2FHitandRun+%28Reason+Online+-+Hit+%26+Run+Blog%29 you guys get my attitude yet? |
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Title: Re: Chase Snowden DOWN! Post by srinath on 07/04/13 at 23:22:36 About 3000 people - lots of congressmen, several agency heads etc etc spanning about 12 years - going back to the early days after 9/11 have had a hand in approving or just being aware of this. Snowden didn't hack his way to getting this information, he was given access to this information after signing a non-disclosure agreement. Nothing cool or heroic about that fool. He decided to take the high ground after finding out the info was not worth any real $$$. Hey, I'm sure there are people who know when and where we have weapons and when we gonna move it to where, maybe that should be made public ... How about other operations like when they are going to drive from one place to another ... that too should be made public. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Chase Snowden DOWN! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/04/13 at 23:31:11 Nothing cool or heroic about that fool. your opinion,, now, why is clapper not in trouble? why are you so quick to protect the goobs? got more freedom than ya know what to do with? want more spying on you ? like being lied to? |
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Title: Re: Chase Snowden DOWN! Post by oldNslow on 07/05/13 at 05:12:37 Quote:
And if twice that many, or ten times that many, had a hand in approving it it would still be wrong. |
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Title: Re: Chase Snowden DOWN! Post by srinath on 07/05/13 at 06:38:27 407E7F73617D7C120 wrote:
That ship sailed a long time ago when we started screaming about planes flying into buildings. Really we want to have it both ways. We dont want people getting killed in these Idiotic 100 storey fire traps ... and we want to have full on privacy and freedom. Bogus BS. Sorry and that's why 3000 people didn't "leak" the info. We have not had another 9/11. Those 3000 people have had a small part in that, and this fool is inviting another 9/11. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Chase Snowden DOWN! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/05/13 at 06:59:50 youve just made perfectly clear who you are, & frankly, im disgusted, literally uncomfortable in my guts, knowing youre the way you are,, |
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Title: Re: Chase Snowden DOWN! Post by oldNslow on 07/05/13 at 07:07:24 Quote:
Sri, I don't know who the "we" you're refering to are, but I am most assuredly not one of them. I'm not at all interested in "having it both ways" I've said several times on here that I don't want the government to protect me; I want it to leave me alone. |
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Title: Re: Chase Snowden DOWN! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/05/13 at 07:09:27 7 still, no support for clappers arrest, |
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Title: Re: Chase Snowden DOWN! Post by srinath on 07/05/13 at 08:27:01 635D5C50425E5F310 wrote:
And you were going to stop planes flying into buildings ? And the car bombers, and the christmas day bomber and everyone else who has had their plan interrupted ? 4F5056514C4B7A4A7A42505C17250 wrote:
I think having it both ways needs to be foot in the fire. 697670776A6D5C6C5C64767A31030 wrote:
Now you know how disgusting your "hold both feet to a fire" garbage when it looks like republicans have been doing something has been for the rest of us - which BTW republicans were the ones that started this - this was post 9/11 republican house, senate and president. Bush and cheney all the way baby. Read it and put both legs into a fire. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Chase Snowden DOWN! Post by srinath on 07/05/13 at 08:27:51 Sorry I forgot 9/11 is a made up problem ... OK ... gotcha ... so there should now be 3 legs in the fire ... both legs and the made up leg. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Chase Snowden DOWN! Post by oldNslow on 07/05/13 at 08:50:49 Quote:
Nope. Never claimed I could do that. And the govenment didn't do such a hot job either. And with the exception of the two guys in Boston,all those others whose plans were supposedly foiled got caught cause their stuff didn't work, or they were actually the victims of sting operations run by the FBI - ie. they were basically idiots. Not much of a return on the investment of living in a police state, not to mention the billions of wasted dollars IMO. |
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Title: Re: Chase Snowden DOWN! Post by srinath on 07/05/13 at 09:08:35 310F0E02100C0D630 wrote:
Hey, if you felt so, why did you let bush get this program get expanded - remember Bush also searched content, not just on meta data. Bush's scanning of email included content, bush also had a warrantless wiretapping program in place, listening into calls - not just pulling phone logs to see who called who for how long. Police state ... very very very much so, under Bush/Cheney. With Obama its more like mall security state. And yes now its time for you to say ... "Both parties need to have legs in the fire" now that bush has been implicated. Yes cost a lot of $$$ under Bush. Pulling phone logs I would guess is much much much cheaper. Again both legs in fire ... cos looks like Bush spent more $$$. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Chase Snowden DOWN! Post by oldNslow on 07/05/13 at 09:28:03 Quote:
Sri, I didn't LET Bush do anything. I'm one guy. He didn't need my help. How come when you don't have any other answer you just default to "It's Bush/Cheney's fault." I don't get it. And yeah, I do blame both parties. They are equally culpable for the mess this country is in. Neither of them is intrested in anything other than maintaining their status as the overlords. |
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Title: Re: Chase Snowden DOWN! Post by Pine on 07/05/13 at 10:44:25 7D43424E5C40412F0 wrote:
This.. very much this. Way too many bad things occur when government seeks to "protect" the citizens. Make no mistake, the government cares not one bit about the lives lost in 9/11. They do care about the black eye the government got. |
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Title: Re: Chase Snowden DOWN! Post by srinath on 07/05/13 at 11:00:01 0937363A2834355B0 wrote:
Who says I dont have an answer when I say "Bush did it". In this case Snowden is a thief. We paid him to be lets say a bank security guard, and he stole the $$$ that was in the safe. And all the squealing from the right wing nuts ... that's who the "Bush did it" is for. You see the ones that squeal the loudest about "both sides need to have their feet in the fire" are the same that ignored all the garbage that Bush did, and want to beat Obama over the head with smaller versions of it. I am only exposing the right wing hypocrisy ... If Obama did it, its bad, If Bush did it "Both parties need to be held accountable" ... except, they were completely silent when Bush did it, and try to take righteous high ground now. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Chase Snowden DOWN! Post by srinath on 07/05/13 at 11:01:45 447D7A71607B66140 wrote:
This.. very much this. Way too many bad things occur when government seeks to "protect" the citizens. Make no mistake, the government cares not one bit about the lives lost in 9/11. They do care about the black eye the government got. [/quote] What govt is this you're talking about ? Seriously the whole bravado about "let me keep my guns and I'll protect myself" ... is all the 4 walls of your tiny room, compared to what is nationally @ risk. Cool. Srinath |
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Title: Re: Chase Snowden DOWN! Post by Pine on 07/05/13 at 11:03:03 7E6167607D7A4B7B4B73616D26140 wrote:
Clapper should be fired.. cause he is an idiot. Hell my 15yo son can lie better than that! BTW .. I will go with Sri on one thing... Bush senior was a CIA insider, and allowed the CIA access to the DC machine greater than ever before. I was not and am not a fan of the Bush regime. It may well be that current Admin has at least held the CIA at bay. But the intelligence machine has already been birthed, and that genie aint going back in the bottle anytime soon. The blatant lies told by Clapper are only a small indication of the power that the intelligence machine ALREADY wields. Of course they lie... what is a senator gonna do about it? What is the president gonna do about it. Nothing.... they cant... INTELLIGENCE... they hold all the cards. Cut our funding and see how quickly the bad guys find out (cause we will tell them) where to hit us. Heck... the WHOLE Snowden thing could be a made up deal.. The intelligence machine wants MORE money .. more power... whats spilling a silly secret to the power they can get with scaring congress? Again.. I don't know how I got to be part of the 3000.. but this wasn't news to me. This was told when the NSA wanted to increase their surveillance to READING and storing all EMAILS. Phone logs... pffffftttt chump change. Think it cant happen? The banks told congress to get out of wall street back in 2004. They needed more freedom to make money. When the head of SEC took it to congress she was railroaded out of DC... out of government. No she wasn't at ALL surprised by 2008. ..... oh and to date no one has had the balls to put the old restrictions back on the banks. ( but they have given them money) PS: this was all on a PBS special on TV!! |
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Title: Re: Chase Snowden DOWN! Post by Pine on 07/05/13 at 11:21:18 60617A7D72677B130 wrote:
This.. very much this. Way too many bad things occur when government seeks to "protect" the citizens. Make no mistake, the government cares not one bit about the lives lost in 9/11. They do care about the black eye the government got. [/quote] What govt is this you're talking about ? Seriously the whole bravado about "let me keep my guns and I'll protect myself" ... is all the 4 walls of your tiny room, compared to what is nationally @ risk. Cool. Srinath[/quote] Sri we are agreeing with you! Can I protect myself?? NO!!!!!!! But I would rather die with all my freedoms intact,,, living my life unhindered... not wondering when I will made "disappeared" for some mis-dialed phone call. Than to life as "kept" and "protected". Nothing ... nothing is more important than freedom. National Security .. either it serves ME and my freedom... or I am enslaved to it. Many country's enjoy a higher standard of living than the US... don't think I want to move Arabia any time soon. I could probably earn more money in CHINA than here... but money is not the point. Hell, if I want to be "protected" I would move to North Korea. Now to be sure, an intelligence machine is needed, and classified info that I don't need to know about and all. And sure, efforts and diligence is needed to protect the country at large. But the second that "national security" reduces the liberty and freedom of everyone, not based on crimes or even intent.. but simply based phishing... the line is crossed. The USA system relies on the assumption of innocence. The phone logs assumes the guilt of everyone. |
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Title: Re: Chase Snowden DOWN! Post by srinath on 07/05/13 at 11:47:25 I dunno, I dont think we're ever going to get "all our freedoms" ... there is too much population in many pockets of the country ... have you heard the saying "your RIGHT to flail your arms around ends where my nose begins" ... Yea too many noses in too close proximity in many many cities. People are the problem, you cant have your rights, cos other people have their rights and they get in your way. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Chase Snowden DOWN! Post by Midnightrider on 07/05/13 at 12:23:06 Snowden, I wish we had a 100 just like him. We cant keep the government in check. They do things behind our backs and we have no say so, patriot act, homeland security, Federal Reserve, drones overhead, national database, Monsanto poisoning, ruined our childrens education and I could go on. The government has gone wild worrying about us but they're not worried about our safety. They're worried about guys like me who have just about had enough of their sh!t. They'll pass a bill when they know 80 or 90% of the people are against it. They don't want us to have the ability to defend or attack, no 2nd amendment. They're doing illegal searches and getting away with it. Theres no one to police them. Anything they do is OK and the people have no say. I wish I could be Warren Buffet for one day and anyone that leaks damming information would be an instant millionaire. They're spending more on the rest of the globe when they could be putting our people to work on the infrastructure instead of handing them food stamps. Our people are sick of our foreign policy but once elected our politicians do nothing about it. Obama sux, he's done nothing but lie and try to cover his a$$ and do away with half the constitution.. He's done nothing he promised to do. His insurance plan sux and I know a couple good doctors who told me the day it goes into effect they're through. Congress screwed that up, I'll lay the blame where it lies. They're crying about welfare, SS. If I had the money I paid in I would be a millionaire, now they don't want to give some of it back. The middle class is a thing of the past that use to keep this country running, Nafta and a few more agreements has made the middle class a dinosaur. We haven't had a president we could trust since JFK. He was killed because he was gonna blow the whistle. |
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