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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> The Cafe >> Oil War! :D /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1448088343 Message started by cheapnewb24 on 11/20/15 at 22:45:43 |
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Title: Oil War! :D Post by cheapnewb24 on 11/20/15 at 22:45:43 Okay, Okay, Don't beat me up yet ;D I am looking forward to my first savage oil change. I have some Rotella T and some Delo. I bought these after researching this forum. I gather that the newer formulations of this oil may be slightly short on the ZDDP. Also, two different dealerships I have talked to did not like diesel type oil such as Rotella. One even blamed some ATV engine failures on Rotella :P :o ::) :-? :-/. More than that, I had a missing nut from the head and it was causing an oil leak. I had to add some Rotella, perhaps slightly overful (the old trick some of you guys mention of letting a bit of oil creep to the sight glass while on the kickstand). Well, now I am noticing shifting issues, particularly when stopped or nearly stopped, just doesn't feel right sometimes. I have always had a soft clutch prone to a little slippage, but tonight, I think it outrightly slipped. Had it in 2nd or 3rd, accelerating from a four lane stop light, and it broke loose and went vroom, if you know what I mean :P The clutch was already engaged, I think. I may have been covering the clutch, but I can't say I caused it to slip. I doubt I had substantial pressure on the lever. I know it doesn't take much. I am guessing it just slipped: period. From what the previous owner told me, and the miles I've put on it, the oil may be just ready to change. Maybe it's not the Rotella's fault. It may have 2500 miles on the oil change. I am not sure. I think the PO told me that it would need to be changed after 1000 miles. I've put maybe 400 on it since then :). Who knows what he had in it. It calls for 10w-40, I think. Maybe the slightly thicker Rotella in cold weather is causing the issue; but I don't think the engine was cold when it slipped. I have noticed for a while now that it sometimes slips in 2nd gear specifically, but I could have just blamed that on improper clutch throttle coordination. Now I wonder. I have been considering shimming the springs for a while now. I know that too much pressure could destroy the disks and stress the throwout rod/bearing. I will have to tear it down at some point anyway to change the neutral switch and check the notorious cam chain tensioner for issues. The bike has over 15900 miles on it. Might as well say 16K. It would be cool to just throw a Verslavy tensioner in it and a Barnett clutch, but I ain't made of money :P. Now, concluding my late night ramble ::), I welcome the opinions by the dozen :D |
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Title: Re: Oil War! :D Post by Dave on 11/21/15 at 02:56:51 The folks that recommend against Rotella don't understand what it is, or what their oils have been losing as the formulations change. Motorcycle dealerships are not up to speed on what the Savage needs to survive. The folks on this forum have racked up hundreds of thousands of miles on the Savage.....and youzguyz has 140,000 miles on just one bike and the cylinder/piston has never been taken apart. How can you doubt that kind of durability? There is nothing in Rotella T (yet) what will make the clutch slip. We don't recommend using a lot of throttle until the bike is warmed up - as cold oil between the clutch plates can make the clutch slip. Don't use Suzuki 10W-40 oil that you buy from the dealership - it just doesn't have enough ZDDP to allow the cam/rockers to survive for a long time. You need to check the cable adjustment - there should be a tiny bit of play in the lever before you feel the tension increase.....that ensures the springs inside the clutch can apply the full force to the clutch plates. You also need to check the lever on the side of the engine case - the lever should be between the two marks cast into the case when the clutch is at rest. If the lever is not between the marks, you need to get a different length push rod....Suzuki offers 3 different lengths. See the clutch threads in the Tech Section for more reading on how to adjust the clutch and determine if you need a different length push rod. And.....when you shift - be sure the clutch lever is fully released before you start applying throttle. |
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Title: Re: Oil War! :D Post by verslagen1 on 11/21/15 at 07:41:26 7F74797D6C72796B7E2E281C0 wrote:
You might point out that rotella has the JASO MA oil cert and ask did his shop service the atv's. becareful, likely to get you tossed out. ;D Quote:
time to change the oil. |
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Title: Re: Oil War! :D Post by Oldfeller on 11/21/15 at 13:28:59 OK, you got replied to for sharing information from unknown folks who quoted no supporting evidence whatsoever for those opinions that they held out to you. Did you know that here on the list we do not have a very high opinion of the stealership people when working on Savages? Mainly because they only sell 1-2 a year and only service that many at maximum levels, with very few ever coming back after the required warranty "pocket pickings". We keep our lists of horror stories of inept stealership very jr mechanics being given Savages to work on because they are single cylinder engines and the most jr mechanics (generally still in high school) do all the work on all the kiddy bikes. My favorite was the kid who was told by his senior mechanics to take the engine out of the frame so he could adjust the valves easier up on the bench. Perhaps good advice for a Honda 70, but right dumb advice for a Savage and its 170 pound engine. This Mikey broke off the boss where the clutch cable terminates trying to get the engine out of the frame, requiring a complete motor replacement as the boss is cast into one of the case halves. Go Mikey !!! The dealership wound up buying the bike from the list member ...... after the terror stricken Mikey tried to zip tie and epoxy the clutch cable back into place. Me, I'd like to see the "damage" done to an ATV engine by dino Rot T. ;) Go to Tech Section > Table of Contents/Index > Clutch and read how to adjust your clutch. It starts by comparing the lever position against the marks on the side of the case, to make sure you have the correct length of push rod coming out of your clutch. On average we change our clutch rod 2-3 times over the life of a clutch pack ..... as the chrome lever actuation range is small compared to the total wear out range of the stacked clutch disks. This rod also WEARS DOWN as it is the give point between the rapidly rotating clutch and the stationary actuator that is attached to the chromed clutch lever. When this happens, you put in the CORRECT replacement rod that takes out all the cork plate compression and wear effects. Most newbies don't know about doing that first, and they make a confused mess out of clutch adjustment because they don't start in the correct application range for the lever motion. hint: if you are out of the adjustment range on the side of the case, nothing you move will effect anything in a useful fashion. Read up, then ask questions to clarify what you don't understand -- this is how we know we need to tune the Tech Postings to help make it clearer. |
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Title: Re: Oil War! :D Post by Art Webb on 11/22/15 at 08:03:05 As Versy said, and i have said on this forum more than once, Rot is JASO MA certified, go get your Rot bottle and read the back |
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Title: Re: Oil War! :D Post by Kris01 on 11/22/15 at 08:09:23 If you search this site for anything oil related you'll get a ton of people recommending Rotella. Matter of fact, you probably won't get anyone recommending against it! ;) I use Rotella exclusively and have had no problems with it. Others have reported smoother shifting, less engine mechanical noise, etc. Get you a bottle and join the club! :D |
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Title: Re: Oil War! :D Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/22/15 at 09:20:51 I was hunting information on a four wheeler and the forum had an oil thread, and guess What! The old timers were supporting Rotella. It boils down to, IMO, Why argue with a proven winner that is so affordable? |
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Title: Re: Oil War! :D Post by cheapnewb24 on 11/22/15 at 17:24:32 I already have a bottle, and I already looked and noticed that it is JASO-MA (Delo isn't, though). In fact, I mentioned it to the same parts man who blamed those ATV engine failures on Rotella. The funny thing is that he seemed like he did not even know what JASO-MA was! ;D ::) :P He recommended some sort of "Thumper" brand oil sitting on the shelf. Don't remember the manufacturer. I mentioned the ZDDP issue, and that is what he recommended. Unfortunately, he had no numbers on the zinc or phosphorus on that oil, so it was a guess at best, though it looked pretty good. I didn't buy it. He said something like "car oil for cars, motorcycle oil for motorcycles," that sort of simplistic philosophy. At another dealership, I was told that diesel oil was too thick :-?. Uh, yeah, right... 15w-40? naaaww, that stuff's thicker than refrigerated honey ya know, can't even pour the darn stuff till ya heat it with a torch. ;D ;D ;D. He didn't say that, by the way. I do think he said it was too thick though. I tried too reason with him. I am not sure how far I got. Speaking of stealership, I don't really like them much anyway, car dealerships included. I'm too cheap to like them. However, I did have a nut missing from the front side of the head which was causing the leak which made me have to add oil in the first place. The parts man at the dealership gave me the nut, free of charge, and one of the mechanics let me borrow a wrench to do it myself, so I got my bike fixed free ya might say ;) Of course, I warned him beforehand that I might not let them do it if it cost too much ;). Maybe he got the message... Or maybe he should have done it himself for free :P Slave driver ain't I? ;D Got in an argument with the owner about bike technology. I valued older,simpler, more primitive technology. He seemed to like more high tech. He did teach me the practical function of dangerously powerful brakes, ya know, the kind that locks up if you give them just a little too much pressure. (I was the only one in my MSF class to pull a stoppie during the emergency stops. I had their only TU250X. That little thing sure had some strong brakes :D) I worry about the trend of mandated ABS in some places, and, on cars, electronic stability control. Yeah, I sound a little crazy ::), but I like to have the choice to be primitive and dangerous. This sounds a little extreme and hard for me to imagine, but, if we don't watch the nanny state of this world, even motorcycles themselves could be outlawed because "they're too dangerous." Yeah, its a pretty long stretch, but that is where the "safety first" kind of thinking can end up-- self-driving cars and sitting in ones house surrounded by airbags ;D, not to mention taking away all our guns >:(. I can certainly say the Savage has anti-lock brakes :D They can't lock :P. (The front anyway, I locked the rear yesterday on hardtop-- nasty too-- veered to the side, jerked about when I let it catch, and had to set my foot down too :o The kind of things that highsiders are made of). I can say that the one that didn't know about the oil ratings did give me a fairly good deal on turn signals :) (something like $5 a piece used mismatched, $35 for the K&S OE style rear, but he only had one) The funny thing is that I have actually been going around the shops and dealerships trying to find someone who will train me OJT as a mechanic or something. Just call me Mikey :D. Of course, winter tends to be a bad time for a motorcycle job. The fancy-shmancy Harley dealership was pretty depressing as they got their "Harley Certified" mechanics out of a certain school in Florida :(. This was a dealership in northeastern Tennessee, by the way :(. I've already been to college and used my gov't benefits. I work part-time minimum wage. I am a little sick of the idea of blowing my money, my parents money, and the government's money on years of schooling all for a degree--a stupid little piece of paper, which may not even guarantee expertise--that may never even get used in the first place, just so I can qualify to have a certain job. >:( Just think, the American Dream has come to this -- what a shame! >:( By the way, I hope those "Harley Certified" mechanics have more sense than those engineers who designed a certain twin cam engine that blows up ;D ::) :P Of course, this has nothing to do with oil. I may repost this later to another thread. Anyway... Does replacing the clutch throwout rod eliminate slippage? I already made sure there was plenty of play in the levers along time ago. Don't remember checking the marks, though. |
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Title: Re: Oil War! :D Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/22/15 at 17:39:32 The rod length can't make it slip. If the cable has slack, the clutch pack is gripping as much as it can. Go get a junk lawnmower at a garage sale. Fix it. Sell it. Rinse, repeat. Keep it all separate from household funds, build up. Get a piece of crap riding mower. Do not buy parts from the lawn and garden places, go to industrial supply houses. Save up. Buy a bike that isn't blown up. Fix it. U tube, forums.. Hunt for a forum before you buy. Few are like this place. Yamaha Raptor forum was really bad. |
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Title: Re: Oil War! :D Post by cheapnewb24 on 11/22/15 at 17:51:50 I looked up the thumper oil. It was Bel-Ray Thumper 4T Racing oil, not sure if it was syn or dino that he had. Anyone had experience with this stuff? How about the phos. or zinc levels? "most jr mechanics (generally still in high school) do all the work on all the kiddy bikes" Well, I'm 25 years old and never messed with dirt bikes, so I guess I'm safe ;D. |
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Title: Re: Oil War! :D Post by Dave on 11/22/15 at 18:06:57 7D6264637E7948784870626E25170 wrote:
Yes, the rod can make the clutch slip. As the clutch wears the inner plate moves closer to the outside plate....and eventually the rod is too long and prevents the clutch pack from getting full tension. That is why there are marks cast on the side of the engine.....so you can see if the rod is in need of changing to a shorter one. The clutch plates has enough material to last through 2 more rods, and it is cheaper than buying new clutch plates. Look at the thread in the Tech Section for the clutch rod details. |
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Title: Re: Oil War! :D Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/22/15 at 18:11:47 Never mind, a mental pic just hit. I can have slack in the cable, but the throw out is pinned against the case. Right? |
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Title: Re: Oil War! :D Post by cheapnewb24 on 11/22/15 at 18:32:35 "Go get a junk lawnmower at a garage sale. Fix it. Sell it. Rinse, repeat. Keep it all separate from household funds, build up. Get a piece of crap riding mower. Do not buy parts from the lawn and garden places, go to industrial supply houses. Save up. Buy a bike that isn't blown up. Fix it. U tube, forums.. Hunt for a forum before you buy. Few are like this place. Yamaha Raptor forum was really bad." Huh :-? Does this mean I should just buy moderately broken bikes and other small engines for cheap, fix them, and sell them for experience? I do have some mechanical experience, though I would not consider myself an born and raised mechanic by far. Perhaps I stand corrected... my Dad was a mechanic ::). (mechanic/electrician: coal mines) I just lack enough experience, in my opinion, partly because my family's home is not the ideal mechanic's garage. One really gets discouraged with this stuff, especially when you're used to cars, trucks, tractors, and bulldozers. Ever tried to mess with dozer tracks? It can be a nightmare >:(. When it comes to bikes, with their light weight and simplicity, I might be willing to make an exception. One of my recent hobbies has been playing with Gearing Commander. For years, I have had the kind of mind that tries to figure out from time to time how to build a better engine or transmission, or something else. You might say I am a gearhead, but for certain reasons, I have had more experience in the past few years behind the computer screen than with a wrench. I have considered mechanical engineering often, but that can be a MEGA HUGE amount of trouble: several years in school, hard classes, and then, maybe, years in some sort of apprenticeship :-/. But then, I started for a while to become a doctor ::). With all this said it is a little interesting that I value old technology :-? My degree will end up being a business degree with an entrepreneurship concentration, good for starting my own business. I thought for a while about getting into walk behind tractors (e.g. BCS). Something about two wheels I guess ::) I wasn't really serious about motorcycles then, to beat it all ::) Not saying I would never go to school, but I do want to enter the job field, know that I like it, and have some success with it before I actually have to get certifications. One step at a time ;) |
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Title: Re: Oil War! :D Post by cheapnewb24 on 11/22/15 at 18:35:20 417A7760717D66607B737E61120 wrote:
Yes, the rod can make the clutch slip. As the clutch wears the inner plate moves closer to the outside plate....and eventually the rod is too long and prevents the clutch pack from getting full tension. That is why there are marks cast on the side of the engine.....so you can see if the rod is in need of changing to a shorter one. The clutch plates has enough material to last through 2 more rods, and it is cheaper than buying new clutch plates. Look at the thread in the Tech Section for the clutch rod details.[/quote] If the side cover lever can wiggle, can the clutch pack still be pinned open? |
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Title: Re: Oil War! :D Post by cheapnewb24 on 11/22/15 at 18:52:40 57484E4954536252625A48440F3D0 wrote:
Or, does this mean that successful DIY, Old Fashioned, American Dream motorcycle shops are made this way? :) Does this mean that I don't need to cower before the almighty stealerships ;D ;D In all honesty, the owner of one local dealership was a real man. He was really cool to talk to. He used to race back in the day. Unfortunately, he was confined to a wheel chair from a broken neck. From what he said, he wasn't expected to live for 24 years after his accident, but he did. He is now in his seventies. :) I would have thought that if I could get some experience repairing many different bikes at a shop with an organized place to work, that would be a good way of getting experience. The question is a big IF. |
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Title: Re: Oil War! :D Post by cheapnewb24 on 11/22/15 at 19:20:37 I saw this a few days ago, that's how I know about the Harley engines http://www.jamesrussellpublishing.biz/beforeyoubuyharley.html According to him, the only new Harley worth buying is the 1200 Sportster. He might just be right, but then, you can't believe everything you read on the Internet (disclaimer). |
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Title: Re: Oil War! :D Post by Art Webb on 11/23/15 at 09:35:10 The guy trying to sell you thumper oil make his living selling thumper oil to folks who don't know ant better Never take advice from someone who has a financial stake in giving it JOG suggested an excellent method of learning: the savage is essentially a big lawn mower engine (even sounds like one with the stock pipe) in a motorcycle and while tech has it's place, I'd like to see Mr high tech repair his injected bike by the side of the road with pliers and a screwdriver ;D |
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Title: Re: Oil War! :D Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/23/15 at 13:34:31 6F7076716C6B5A6A5A62707C37050 wrote:
I didn't even almost suggest that you buy a busted motorcycle. Start with something that you can afford to sell to the salvage yard. Start with a worn out lawnmower. Play with it. If it never runs, you will have learned something. Before buying anything, check u tube out. youtube lawn mower repair videos And it's not necessary to have a special flywheel puller. If you're careful and have the right pry bars. I also have a ten pound slide hammer for body work, and it's a huge advantage. Working on busted stuff that Failing to repair has minimal consequences is as safe a way to get experience as there is. |
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Title: Re: Oil War! :D Post by cheapnewb24 on 11/23/15 at 18:00:58 I have worked on small engines before, just not enough. How much stuff do I need to work on before someone can trust me with fixing their stuff? Just wing it and figure it out as I go? Build up a business gradually by buying, repairing, and selling until I get a reputation? Join into random bike building projects with people? Just random stuff like that? I met someone who was involved with some people who build Harleys, but I missed the chance to meet up with him. His employer sent him home early that day :(. It'd be pretty crazy to set up shop working on people's bikes having not worked on them before. Hmmm.... then again, you never know the possibilities ::). There's some pretty creative business models out there, I would imagine, in various job fields. Of course, I hope I don't get flamed for such blasphemous thinking, but its good to think out of the box. It'd be better business strategy than charging a fortune for Mikeys like the dealers do ;D. Hmmm, maybe I have been underestimating my capabilities a little bit. As if-- those other mechanics really know by heart how to work on each individual bike ::). Like many here have said, even some of the dealer mechanics don't know what on earth they're doing with these Savages. They all have to follow the repair manual :P. Well,then again, I assume even the repair manuals can be wrong. I read that the Clymers manual has an error on clutch plate tolerances. I am sure that some of you here are serious bike mechanics, both amateur and professional. How did you start? I may start another thread for this. |
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Title: Re: Oil War! :D Post by cheapnewb24 on 11/23/15 at 18:36:23 I've started another thread for the topic of becoming a bike mechanic. Lets keep this thread an oil war for now, unless someone feels it appropriate to do otherwise. :) That way, more people can know what we're talking about. I thought about just changing the name of the subject, but that would just ruin that funny subject heading I made :D |
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Title: Re: Oil War! :D Post by cheapnewb24 on 11/23/15 at 18:37:01 http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1448331336 |
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Title: Re: Oil War! :D Post by cheapnewb24 on 12/03/15 at 16:09:30 By the way, I recently changed my oil. I overfilled it a little more than I would like, so I had a shop I was visiting to suck a little out while I was there. Boy, that stuff was dirty. I told him about changing my neutral switch, and he advised me to just change the stuff if I was going to continue to ride it. I guess that Rotella I added cleaned the dirt out of the crevices. When I changed it, I looked at it. It could have been worse in my opinion, but with the wear metal in it (probably not an alarming amount), it was a good thing I changed it. To beat all, I had the nerve to take it up the Interstate before I changed it. I just hope it wasn't dirty enough to hurt anything. Well, my guess is that in 3000 miles, unless the PO lied or something, it'll be just as dirty. This incident, along with the incident with our 83 Shadow (not even talking about that one >:() teaches me to always change, or at least thoroughly inspect, the oil immediately upon purchasing a vehicle, regardless of what the PO says. I can say one thing... When I changed the oil with some fresh Rotella dino oil, it sure made a difference. Made it run better, shift better, the works. I think the clutch gripped a little better. As far as running better or power is concerned, some of the effects seem to have faded upon the trip back home. I don't know, maybe my bike doesn't like chilly evenings :P. Of course, it is still possible that there is still some dirt in there that is still being flushed out. When I changed the filter, I put a K&N in it. I found that the PO had also put a K&N in there. I wanted to save it, but I dropped it and got it dirty >:( >:(. I replaced the small o-ring with one in my Dad's old o-ring kit, but the big one was the real problem. The little one might have been a little flattened, but it was alright. The big one, though, had a pretty bad spot in it. My Dad found a big o-ring laying around, cut it to size using a slanted cut, had me fill it in with some old clear silicone caulk, and let it set overnight. I was skeptical, but it worked :P :). Perhaps it helps that the seam was on the top side. That o-ring is low pressure, isn't it? |
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