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Message started by cheapnewb24 on 07/10/16 at 20:15:01

Title: Libertarians and public property
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/10/16 at 20:15:01

Well, Justin, what do you think about the concept of public property? I take it that right-libertarians are obsessed with the idea of private property. I'm not convinced that everything should be privatized. I'd like some right to roam. I'd like to be able to roam around places without risking angry landowners from hauling me away for trespassing. Don't you wish you could ride dual sport over just any random place without fearing that you're stepping on someone's toes?

More than that... What about... say... pollution? Need some laws there, right? How is a purely individual-rights-based government going to work? What about the public good? Can we always let nature take it's course? Can things like Adam Smith's invisible hand always fix everything without the need for regulations?

When I think about the EPA, I've figured out that even though the states can make their own emissions standards for bikes, wouldn't it be useful for the Fed to make one global standard to make it easy to follow? A muffler that's legal in one state might get you a ticket in another. I guess that's their excuse for making the lot of their laws: Interstate Commerce

On the other hand, should the standards of each state simply be organized for easy reference?

Title: Re: Libertarians and public property
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/10/16 at 20:41:51

So, what are you saying? If a gun doesn't Always keep its owner safe, then obviously guns should not be available for people?
If freedom can't be imagined into every detail that your mind can conjure, then freedom is stupid?
You sit and stew on stuff trying to stump me? For what? You WANT more governmental control?.

Title: Re: Libertarians and public property
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/10/16 at 21:46:16

4A555354494E7F4F7F47555912200 wrote:

Uhhh... No! Like I said in another thread, I seem to be turning libertarian these days.

The main question is this: Is there a place for the widespread use of public property in libertarian philosophy? Maybe the government could buy property on the free market, fair and square? Places, like parks and forests where anybody can walk or ride around and not be convicted of trespassing? Is the idea of private property the answer to everything?

Secondly, can society run under a purely libertarian government without the type of government regulation that looks out for public welfare, such as reasonable air pollution control, or other necessary regulations? Can securing the individual right at all cost make a society without substantial flaw?

Are you libertarian simply because you want to use the philosophy as a tool to promote a simpler, more efficient government that hurts people less but still gets the job done.... Or are you in favor of a philosophically pure libertarian government?

Title: Re: Libertarians and public property
Post by Serowbot on 07/10/16 at 22:11:19

I want some places kept pristine...
...and some should be publicly owned and open to all...

Let's keep the Grand Canyon out of Trump's clammy hands...

We don't need a dollar sign on everything...

Title: Re: Libertarians and public property
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/10/16 at 22:26:58

I don't know if there is a practical application for pure libertarian government, anymore than democracy is tolerable. But the nanny state, leftist crap is wearing Thin. If I think I want a vaccination, I Know how to get it. I don't need someone who Thinks they know what is best for me or mine telling me hoot.
And if You're scared of typhoid, take the shot. And the kid who Didn't can't hurt You, r i g ht? You're Vaccinated.. so, shut up..

I just had the basic libertarian ideas, didn't find commonality with either party, I felt completely alone for years, then someone told me about Ron Paul.

We could see a ton of improvement without going Full on Libertarian. Some people take Libertarian to Retard and blame libertarian ideas for failing. The people who say that a country should not have immigration laws is silly. America is private property, owned by all of us. Libertarian people still have fences and doors. Private property is important.

And the idea that
The Government
Should buy land? What part of the Constitution authorizes that?
Where do they get money? You know what lands they are allowed to own?
I think the travel is pretty good.

Title: Re: Libertarians and public property
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/10/16 at 23:16:31

Don't know... But I can say that shortly after the Constitution was written, the feds did buy land from France: the Louisiana Purchase. That's a bit different, but it's still buying land. Back in the day, we had large amounds of public land before statehood. Remember the great cattle drives of yore? Remember when the cowboys cut fences and waged war against farmers? Private property can have its drawbacks.

Title: Re: Libertarians and public property
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/11/16 at 01:34:20

Life has risks, slavery or liberty, ? Trade freedom for security?

Title: Re: Libertarians and public property
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/11/16 at 08:17:25

The idea is that giving people all the land and letting them lock it up leaves people nowhere to roam. They're locked up in their own homes. You know what happens when the roads get privatized? Toll roads. Do you want to have to pay money simply to travel? I don't mean hotel fees or food. I mean, You can't even move without having to pay someone [b]not to be trespassed.[/b]

In the end, the government is whatever the people want it to be, right? Wouldn't you pay a little tax money for some public space you can go without stepping on toes? Not all of this has to be federal land, either. Some of it can be owned by states or local communities.

Perhaps early American government got away with buying land from other nations under the premise of making treaties (I'd guess). The government is here to serve us. Would public resources be one way the government serve us?

On your post: What does public land have to do with trading freedom for security? Who knows, maybe it gives us more freedom? Are you going to be arrested for trespassing on true public land? (Not talking about government use "keep off" land). Isn't that more freedom? The funny thing is that when you make everything privatized and libertarian, you do give the individual liberties.... THAT individual. Everyone else gets the shaft. Everyone else gets liberties taken away pertaining to that particular circumstance.

It comes down to this, JOG, do you really want to have to pay someone for the priviledge, not right, as it's no longer a right once everything is private property, to merely step outside your own house? Do you want to have to constantly negotiate with people everywhere you go? Yeah, you're kinda free not to then, but wouldn't you rather pay a little tax to the government to keep roads and public parks and forests open to you? Hey, you can even be free to pay the taxes. One example is something like a gas tax, where you only pay if you drive. That's like paying an automatic toll, right? Now should the government be entrusted with this, or should it get split up amongst thousands of private road companies and recreational land owners?

The idea is fee-less travel. Anybody can come or go without getting trapped. Say you have a homeless person. How is he going to pay road fees to walk across the countryside? Not very free, is it?

If you've noted, as I was writing, I seem to have come up with an idea for letting private companies emulate the government's job of keeping up "public" property, but is it the best idea?

Title: Re: Libertarians and public property
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/11/16 at 08:55:44

You got me,