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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Healthcare....... /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1485221186 Message started by raydawg on 01/23/17 at 17:26:26 |
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Title: Healthcare....... Post by raydawg on 01/23/17 at 17:26:26 Can we be adults, and share ideas on what might work? Looking for ideas, input. It seems we need some consensus as to what we need, and how we go about getting it. You guys living outside America, who have a healthcare system for your population, can you share with us? |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by old.indian on 01/24/17 at 06:53:09 #1. Some way to make health care affordable. (Torte reform ? Single payer ? ) #2. Basic care and surgeries available to all. "Optional" i.e. desired cosmetic surgery / treatments etc. NOT covered. (Exceptions for accident victims' reconstructive surgery etc....) |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by Joer0952 on 01/24/17 at 07:47:27 50535B1156515B565E513F0 wrote:
I agree with 1, but there is no way to do 1 and 2 together, its just not plausible. If you want it to be available for all its going to be expensive b/c the people paying are going to have to pay for the part of the "all" that aren't paying or who are heavily subsidized. THAT IS GOING TO JACK UP PRICES. Single payer means the government runs the show, what part of the DMV or the post office gives you the confidence that the government can run anything effectively. The government can not solve your problems it can only create them. Look at the NHS in the UK for a glimpse at how single payer works out, or the people in Canada dying while waiting on line for treatment. Healthcare being available for all is another entitlement that will insentivise poverty and single motherhood, which will continue to destroy families. Access for all is a much more plausible suggestion. |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by raydawg on 01/24/17 at 08:10:25 Can someone spell out single payer, please? I believe pre-existing condition should be covered, however, not bad life style, choices. A diabetic that keeps eating wrong should be held responsible, but how? I carry additional medical for my MC because it's a greater risk |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/24/17 at 08:38:39 10031B06031505620 wrote:
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by Serowbot on 01/24/17 at 09:00:50 UK and Canadian citizens love their NHS... In a comparison in nightmare healthcare stories the US would win, hands down... Our system don't work. ...and costs triple... |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by Joer0952 on 01/24/17 at 09:11:55 5442554850454853270 wrote:
Yea b/c all the people who got screwed by UK and Canada's systems are dead and can't complain. |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by raydawg on 01/24/17 at 09:29:22 7066716C74616C77030 wrote:
Expand of why you believe this. You have anything to show us? |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/24/17 at 09:36:19 293F28352D38352E5A0 wrote:
The deep love of their system must be an improvement over how they were feeling thirty years ago when I had my wife in Scott and White in Temple Texas. Their RV parking lot was just loaded with license plates from Canada. |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by T And T Garage on 01/24/17 at 11:35:01 Single payer OPTION (medicare for everyone), you can always purchase private/ACA policies, and keep many of the ACA rules intact - 26 y/o student, no pre-existing condition, prescription coverage, etc. Further, and possibly more importantly, allow insurance companies to compete across state lines. (the big guys like aetna and bcbs hate that idea) This will actually lower rates. |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by T And T Garage on 01/24/17 at 11:42:26 Well, you can't deny that something is wrong with the US healthcare system... http://usuncut.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/drugschart.png |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by raydawg on 01/24/17 at 12:08:20 4F515E5F524F54493B0 wrote:
Cool, this is what I am looking for. Can you give a more detailed explanation. Like scenario and examples and why it would be the way to go? |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by T And T Garage on 01/24/17 at 13:16:15 3F2C34292C3A2A4D0 wrote:
Cool, this is what I am looking for. Can you give a more detailed explanation. Like scenario and examples and why it would be the way to go? [/quote] The scenarios are too numerous for me to get into any detail, and I'm no author, but there's a great article on the pros and cons of a public option here: http://washingtonmonthly.com/2016/08/02/would-a-public-option-improve-obamacare/ By no means is the public option a be-all end-all solution. IMHO, it would be a great component of ACA or trumpcare or whatever it's going to be called tomorrow. I think everyone agrees that there's still more that can be done to improve the healthcare industry - like tort reform, punish price gouging from big pharma, setting limits on deductibles based on income, etc. - that would also help. |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by pg on 01/24/17 at 15:12:50 I lived on the American side of the Canadian border for a few years. My neighbors were Canadian and they told me about their health care system. They said everyone can go see a general practice doctor at any time without issue. However, if you need to see a specialist it is very common to wait 6 months. If you need surgery the wait could be up to a year. They said anyone who could afford supplemental insurance would always purchase it. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by raydawg on 01/24/17 at 15:23:13 706E61606D706B76040 wrote:
Cool, this is what I am looking for. Can you give a more detailed explanation. Like scenario and examples and why it would be the way to go? [/quote] The scenarios are too numerous for me to get into any detail, and I'm no author, but there's a great article on the pros and cons of a public option here: http://washingtonmonthly.com/2016/08/02/would-a-public-option-improve-obamacare/ By no means is the public option a be-all end-all solution. IMHO, it would be a great component of ACA or trumpcare or whatever it's going to be called tomorrow. I think everyone agrees that there's still more that can be done to improve the healthcare industry - like tort reform, punish price gouging from big pharma, setting limits on deductibles based on income, etc. - that would also help. [/quote] cool, i'll check it out.... i don't understand why a profit has to be made on medicine, medical, i get the argument it provides incentive.... i don't understand why education has to be for profit... i don't understand why war..... has to be for profit. |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by Serowbot on 01/24/17 at 15:36:12 10031B06031505620 wrote:
i can't believe I'm agreeing with you... :-X ...but with medicine in particular... nobody chooses to be sick... and it can ruin anybody at any time... Illness of a loved one is enough to deal with, without adding cost to it... The only charity I give to is St. Jude's... they never charge a patient for anything. A child with cancer is enough burden... |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by Joer0952 on 01/24/17 at 15:54:52 [/quote] cool, i'll check it out.... i don't understand why a profit has to be made on medicine, medical, i get the argument it provides incentive.... i don't understand why education has to be for profit... i don't understand why war..... has to be for profit. [/quote] while I understand the sentiment behind your view, and I think not for profit is a great thing, I think your are selling the incentive thing a little short. Without profit there is little incentive to innovate, unless you are relying on altruism, and I wouldn't want to rely on that. How willing would you be to put in the hard work, long hours, and the risk of losing money on something if you weren't going to make a profit if it becomes successful. It destroys the risk reward system. |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by raydawg on 01/24/17 at 15:59:51 6076617C64717C67130 wrote:
i can't believe I'm agreeing with you... :-X ...but with medicine in particular... nobody chooses to be sick... and it can ruin anybody at any time... is often more than enough burden, emotionally, to cause serious "pursuit of happiness" Illness of a loved one is enough to deal with, without adding cost to it... The only charity I give to is St. Jude's... they never charge a patient for anything. A child with cancer is enough burden...[/quote] I can't believe I am agreeing with you..... ;D You are right, bad luck should never be capitalized upon. Illness itself, by itself, is often hard enough, emotionally, to impinge ones ability at the "pursuit of happiness" our founders felt was a cornerstone to our system of governance. |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by Joer0952 on 01/24/17 at 16:08:32 3A29312C293F2F480 wrote:
i can't believe I'm agreeing with you... :-X ...but with medicine in particular... nobody chooses to be sick... and it can ruin anybody at any time... is often more than enough burden, emotionally, to cause serious "pursuit of happiness" Illness of a loved one is enough to deal with, without adding cost to it... The only charity I give to is St. Jude's... they never charge a patient for anything. A child with cancer is enough burden...[/quote] I can't believe I am agreeing with you..... ;D You are right, bad luck should never be capitalized upon. Illness itself, by itself, is often hard enough, emotionally, to impinge ones ability at the "pursuit of happiness" our founders felt was a cornerstone to our system of governance. [/quote] I don't think you are interpreting what is meant by pursuit of happiness correctly, but ill play along what if someones happiness is making a lot of money while doing something they are passionate about such as invent new medical equipment and procedures. Then you would be infringing on their happiness wouldn't you. |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by raydawg on 01/24/17 at 17:20:56 280D0710525B5750620 wrote:
i can't believe I'm agreeing with you... :-X ...but with medicine in particular... nobody chooses to be sick... and it can ruin anybody at any time... is often more than enough burden, emotionally, to cause serious "pursuit of happiness" Illness of a loved one is enough to deal with, without adding cost to it... The only charity I give to is St. Jude's... they never charge a patient for anything. A child with cancer is enough burden...[/quote] I can't believe I am agreeing with you..... ;D You are right, bad luck should never be capitalized upon. Illness itself, by itself, is often hard enough, emotionally, to impinge ones ability at the "pursuit of happiness" our founders felt was a cornerstone to our system of governance. [/quote] I don't think you are interpreting what is meant by pursuit of happiness correctly, but ill play along what if someones happiness is making a lot of money while doing something they are passionate about such as invent new medical equipment and procedures. Then you would be infringing on their happiness wouldn't you.[/quote] I think you took me a too literally...... To succumb to a stroke of bad luck, can have generational consequences, that can impact far beyond the person who fell ill. Playing with your analogy, if I had that invention that could save folks from that illness, shouldn't I reap and insure my future, as well as my children's, is secure financially..... That is prudent, and fair, is it not? I suggest its not a legal, or entitlement, issue, but one of morals. We should be careful playing with scenarios, as it really is easy to take the high road, verbally ;) |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by MnSpring on 01/24/17 at 18:35:50 If the USA, did Not spend a VERY Significant amount of Money, on their, Defense, of the Nations, (Who have a miscue budget for Defense, of their OWN, Nation. Which the USA Provides, FOR THEM. The USA government, through taxes, could have a total mediocre H.C. system, just like the Other places, that the USA, pays to, Defend. If they did not spend it’s money, on Defending, ‘Other”, places. Ya want BOTH ? OK, Get used to paying 40+% of your wages in Tax ! Or, stop the, BILLIONS, going out to ‘Banana Republics’. Stop the BILLIONS, going to the, (USA FUNDED), UN. Stop the Billions, going to a, ’study’, of a two peker billy goat, in some place no one has ever heard of. (Because of some representative, slipped his ‘Pork’, in a bill) Etc Etc Etc. Then, if you want, you can have a, ’Nat HC plan’, Just Like, oh say Canada, where ‘doctors’, are scrambling, to get employed by their government, so they get paid Big BUCKS, to do nothing. Because if the issue is serious, they come to the USA for quality treatment. Solution to, ‘affordable’, HC, is simply, OPEN, to ALL, any plan, from any State ! A Little thing, called, ‘competition’, which now. Is a, ‘Monopoly’ ! Or, pay 40+% of wages in Taxes, to have Both, a, ‘government run HC program, AND A Military, which PROTECTS, many, other Nations, which are, (as previously stated here), ‘Civilized’ ! |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/24/17 at 19:35:18 Anyone willing to learn a trade and work for free? Unless YOU'RE willing to work for free, unless YOU don't expect to profit, why would you expect doctors and college professors and everyone who works there,, seriously,, People who work for a Not for Profit have to eat, Or maybe I just don't understand the premise. Epi pens USED to be very affordable. That changed. Americans pay more for some prescriptions than in Canada, prescriptions that were made in America.. they get the same pill, but we pay more..or, so I have heard.. Before they announced that the medical care system was broken I had a BCBS card for about $35.00/month. Then, the HMOs,, and suddenly, medical care was a mess of Who is on second? Who is in Network? Will they Pay for the stuff I need? Look around for the Doct o rs versus administrators Graph. They CREATED a need for rooms full of people who are driving costs up. |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by MnSpring on 01/24/17 at 20:06:16 293630372A2D1C2C1C24363A71430 wrote:
Some years ago, went to a dentist to have a tooth pulled. He gave me a prescription for 10, ‘Amoxicillin’, 200mg to take, Before the ‘pulling’. Cost was, $25.00 That’s, $25.00 Dollars, for 10, 200 mg pills, for the the SAME Thing, 3 months Later I Bought in Mexico. Which was $12.50 for, 100, 500 mg, of the SAME THING. So USA, $2.50 a pill for 200mg vs $0.0125 for a 500 mg of the SAME THING. Per Pill: 2.50 US - 5 CENTS Mexico. NOW, for the ‘Panty in a bunch crowd’, (Who will say it is not the same) I Pealed off the Spanish Label off, and Under that is said: MADE in the PA USA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (And it was within date) And, the store on Mexico, did NOT sell that for Less than cost. THEY made a profit on it. So, here, it was basically, 5 Cents, vs 2.50 ????????? Nothing wrong with making a profit, nothing at all. But, a TOTALY OBSCENE Profit ???????? Of Course, as T&T said, that, ‘Reality’ which I, ‘Really’ experienced, Is Not, ‘Real’. !!!!!!! (So Grateful for that ‘knowledge’) “…They CREATED a need for rooms full of people who are driving costs up. …” Solution: Competition, NOT, Monopoly ! |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by Joer0952 on 01/24/17 at 23:37:21 4B58405D584E5E390 wrote:
i can't believe I'm agreeing with you... :-X ...but with medicine in particular... nobody chooses to be sick... and it can ruin anybody at any time... is often more than enough burden, emotionally, to cause serious "pursuit of happiness" Illness of a loved one is enough to deal with, without adding cost to it... The only charity I give to is St. Jude's... they never charge a patient for anything. A child with cancer is enough burden...[/quote] I can't believe I am agreeing with you..... ;D You are right, bad luck should never be capitalized upon. Illness itself, by itself, is often hard enough, emotionally, to impinge ones ability at the "pursuit of happiness" our founders felt was a cornerstone to our system of governance. [/quote] I don't think you are interpreting what is meant by pursuit of happiness correctly, but ill play along what if someones happiness is making a lot of money while doing something they are passionate about such as invent new medical equipment and procedures. Then you would be infringing on their happiness wouldn't you.[/quote] I think you took me a too literally...... To succumb to a stroke of bad luck, can have generational consequences, that can impact far beyond the person who fell ill. Playing with your analogy, if I had that invention that could save folks from that illness, shouldn't I reap and insure my future, as well as my children's, is secure financially..... That is prudent, and fair, is it not? I suggest its not a legal, or entitlement, issue, but one of morals. We should be careful playing with scenarios, as it really is easy to take the high road, verbally ;) [/quote] I am not saying prices aren't out of control, but if you remove the incentive of profit completely you will stifle innovation. You suggested that no one should be allowed to profit from others hardship but I am saying that the prospect of profit is what makes people try to innovate. If you want the healthcare system to be top notch based on "morals" and not profit than I have a feeling that you will be shocked to see how that plays out. Removing the incentive for profit in the healthcare industry is not going to save lives by providing more with access to live saving treatment it will kill more by removing the incentive for those in the industry to create such life saving treatment so they would never have existed in the first place. |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by raydawg on 01/25/17 at 04:50:26 Who taught us that? Yes, I understand it's motivation, but we need to be honest and admit it spawns greed...... That is the crux. How do we overcome it? Nelson Mandela remarked, wealth without humility is toxic, I totally agree. However, we can't legislate morality. We shouldn't, but yet you see the left trying to accomplish that via media, academia, and courts, through political avenues.... It's a big part to the populist wave currently. Prior to that, the conservatives took to impose biblical interpretations of morality..... You can't. Any time you use force, or punitive measures to bend the will of another, you have inadvertently set up a condition for conflict. I will use this destructive behavior by man, tho justified by the current mindset, that to make money off of real estate is acceptable behavior. One very strong instinct and need of man is shelter, a home, a place where new new life can foster. It is no longer affordable to many. Will I take that need of others, their concern for roots, when selling my house, or will I get max dollars for it? I know the answer and admit, I put myself first.... I too am trapped in this mindset. Where, when, why, did we adopt this profit and the cost of civilization? Has it provided us with peace? Serenity? I know the answer lies with me. I need to give, before I take, however, I don't know how, those leaders and lessons have perished from our society. |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by Joer0952 on 01/25/17 at 06:12:06 7B68706D687E6E090 wrote:
Its human nature pure and simple, its natural selection...survival of the fittest. You can fight against it and fail or you can learn to work within it and have a chance to succeed, the choice is yours. Like you said yourself you can't legislate virtue. |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by raydawg on 01/25/17 at 08:00:05 Human nature, or animal nature? Is man on top of the evolutionary chain/creation? Viture, who's? Is it universal without regard to any environmental constraints, societal structures? Who shall teach it? How? |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by Joer0952 on 01/25/17 at 08:21:43 32213924213727400 wrote:
Well human history would suggest that human and animal nature is one in the same. You said yourself that: One very strong instinct and need of man is shelter, a home, a place where new new life can foster. It is no longer affordable to many. Will I take that need of others, their concern for roots, when selling my house, or will I get max dollars for it? I know the answer and admit, I put myself first doesn't that answer your question, and I would like to add that protecting your own interests is not a bad thing. The problem is most Americans want to live above their means, ad to do so many make bad decisions and rely on government to bail them out. Just remember anything the government gives the people it must first take from them. |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by Serowbot on 01/25/17 at 08:28:25 7653594E0C05090E3C0 wrote:
...and that's why America has all the innovation in medicine... NOT... Many medical innovations come from places with NHS. Profit doesn't encourage innovation,... it just encourages more profit. Some innovation may come a side benefit... Consider... there is more profit in keeping people sick and treating symptoms than in curing them. |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by Joer0952 on 01/25/17 at 08:32:22 3D2B3C21392C213A4E0 wrote:
...and that's why America has all the innovation in medicine... NOT... Many medical innovations come from places with NHS. Profit doesn't encourage innovation,... it just encourages more profit. Some innovation may come a side benefit... Consider... there is more profit in keeping people sick and treating symptoms than in curing them.[/quote] Well answer this then, why do people from canada and other countries with socialized medicine often, when they have the means, come here for treatment? |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/25/17 at 08:32:52 Put your proposal together, mail it to Trump. |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by raydawg on 01/25/17 at 10:29:07 I'm still waiting to hear about virtue..... As a child growing up, I heard many rumors way back then about a carburetor that would give cars 100's miles per gallon. The big energy bought the invention and buried it... Cynicism is nothing new ;D |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by T And T Garage on 01/25/17 at 10:51:46 "And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make." |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by Joer0952 on 01/25/17 at 10:57:18 37243C21243222450 wrote:
I don't understand what your waiting to hear I was just mimicking what you said, virtue is just behavior showing high moral standards. You said you can't legislate morality, and I was agreeing with you |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by Joer0952 on 01/25/17 at 11:04:03 253B343538253E23510 wrote:
Since we are interjecting Beatles lyrics for seemingly no reason, I will do so as well. I think this one accurately reflects the Obama Trump transition with a little added reflection on the state of our Universities: It's getting better all the time I used to get mad at my school The teachers who taught me weren't cool You're holding me down, turning me round Filling me up with your rules. I've got to admit it's getting better A little better all the time It can't get much worse |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by T And T Garage on 01/25/17 at 11:21:02 raydawg asks a question that has baffled philosophers and everyone else since the dawn of time. There is no real answer. Why are people compassionate? What's the value in helping someone else at your expense? Why do we care about anyone but ourselves? Why be polite? Why show respect? Etc., etc. To ask why is kind of futile. In the end, maybe all we can do is have faith. |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by raydawg on 01/25/17 at 12:38:39 160807060B160D10620 wrote:
Thank you :) Edit: when I first read Dr. Wayne Dyer ( I think that was his name ) I thought how selfish his message. But as I grew, became more aware, less victimized, I see the value in what he reports. You are basically no good to anyone, unless you are good to yourself first. Now view this through the motivation of sustainability, removing the obstacles that challenge, sustainability, and that would be a toxic self..... Which really is self multination, which morphs to pity, indulgences, etc. |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by Trippah on 01/25/17 at 21:19:25 Well, I worked in the healthcare system all my life. There has to be some sort of rational study, and I do not think that will ever happen. Costs...do you count the cost of the clerks at the drs practice that code the billing, and the billing office that submits to as many ins co's you have, and the billing folks there who review the bills and ok them, then the rebilling after the first series has taken place. If you wonder why you get asked the same stupid often irrelevant questions (to the issue which you are seeing the md) it is because those ?s allow the md to bill for more money. Old age..because of many reasons, we spend a fortune on people the last year or 2 of their life...heart attacks and strokes that go to ICU etc, incredible numbers of meds to help with the conditions. In review, might it be better to help those who are infirm and in nursing homes , icu,s for the aged, Altzheimer's who don't recognize their own children (my mother was one so don't flame me, this is just a discussion) to go on to their just rewards. I know, a tough issue. Training md's is expensive, and they therefore have a short window of work to make up all the money they spent plus all the money they didn't earn while in training. Perhaps if the government picked up the costs for all md's, the md's wouldn't have to charge so much? Most md's are very conservative, using techniques they learned while in their 20-30's. New treatments take time to filter in. This is where competition helps, the hospital with the latest treatment system gets the advertising war victory. Equipment costs are unbelievable, x-ray up through modern MRI can be super costly, so they are used ling after newer and better machines are available. And while I read someone's blurb about lasik surgery is now cheaper because of capitalism, I believe you will find it was developed in mother Russia when it was the USSR. All those fibre optic scopes (a big manufacturer is here in Onondaga County NY cost, and even things like curettes and scalples cost big dollars because I suspect to cover upcoming legal costs. (The grooves in the scalpel were 1cm to shallow so it slipped in my hand, sue the scalpel Co., not the surgeon. :o |
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Title: Re: Healthcare....... Post by raydawg on 01/26/17 at 03:21:58 795C5641030A0601330 wrote:
I don't understand what your waiting to hear I was just mimicking what you said, virtue is just behavior showing high moral standards. You said you can't legislate morality, and I was agreeing with you[/quote] Yes, I get understand that, I was just trying to draw out some definitions on morality, virtue, etc, seems vague, at best, but we strive for it? How can any of us, become that of what we can't define? |
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