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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Steering Dampner /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1488745527 Message started by Ruttly on 03/05/17 at 12:25:27 |
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Title: Steering Dampner Post by Ruttly on 03/05/17 at 12:25:27 Has anyone installed a steering dampner. Mainly speaking to the cafe builders , if so where do you buy it ? How well does it work. How easy was it to mount ? What was your bike doing that made you install it ? Any pics would be cool ! |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/05/17 at 13:25:46 If you get your rake around 27 degrees you may need a dampner. The trail on a cafe conversion is only about 3.75 inches so the steering can get a bit twitchy in turns with less then 28 degrees of rake. I went from 28 to 27 and the steering felt a bit to light to my liking, so I brought it back to 28 degrees. If the bike handled better at 27 degrees I would have considered a damper, but there was no noticeable difference so I put it back to 28. BTW, that is a static measurement (although I also did a dynamic simulation) of rake. Not knowing your suspension set up I don't know what your suspension does with you on the bike or under compression. My bike says at 28 degrees in both a static and loaded configuration. Under compression there is opportunity for +/- 1 degree of change. |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Ruttly on 03/05/17 at 18:51:21 Gary , Stock fork with RYCA lowering kit and a Superbrace and at about 30-31 degrees. 27-28 degrees would be sweet. It's super stable right up to 100. Just was thinking a damper would make it feel even more stable. |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/05/17 at 19:28:35 A damper would make it feel "weighty". One of the nice things about the cafe conversation is the light and responsive steering. If you find the front end is getting vague, requiring constant correction mid-corner, then a steering damper is needed. Otherwise, leave it alone. At 30-ish degrees (RYCA lists it at 29 degrees) you should be good, unless there is another problem. |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Ruttly on 03/05/17 at 19:59:35 Gary , As I heard you say before , I find it very compliant as well as stable and super nimble/light. Not having any issues. I think when I get rid of the dual purpose tires and get some stickies on it it will be perfect ! |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by hotrod on 03/05/17 at 22:24:44 Don't waste your money on a steering dampner. I love them and they were needed on some bikes. Years ago Kawasaki sold a stock adjustable dampner for about $ 40.00 . Today they are very overpriced. The way to mount them these days is more complex than the final result would suggest. The rake of the Savage is the steering dampner alone. In a accident the adjustable shaft in your knee cap hurts. The bike will never have the head shaking power or lean angle to need it. |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/06/17 at 05:57:54 Ruttley, the dual-purpose tires probably are the source for limited feedback. My experience with dual-purpose tires is that they do nothing well; they will let you down on the trails (can't climb hills and are slick as snot on rocks) and provide spooky handling (no control feedback) on the road. Hotrod, Ruttley is no longer running with a Savage rake and trail. He's gone from 35 degrees of rake to 30 and trail has gone from 5-3/4" of trail to 3-1/2". Completely different from stock. |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Dave on 03/06/17 at 06:17:24 I don't know "exactly" what my rake/trail is....but it is basically RYCA with 13.5" rear shocks, a 2" lower on the front - however I am running a 90/90-18 front, and that does drop the front down more than the folks running a 100/90-19 or 100/90-18 front.....the 90/90 has a lot shorter sidewalls on the tire. Because of the narrowness of the clip-on handlebars the bike does feel a bit "stiff" when you want to tell the bike to stop going straight.....my other bikes with wide handlebars are easier to initiate the start of a turn. I believe the narrow with of the handlebars is part of the stiff feeling......once turned the bike handles fine and it seems to change from one corner to the next well. The Cafe' bike has never felt unstable, and it can hustle through the corners when asked to do so. I have never felt the need for a steering damper. The only time I have ever felt a "wiggle", is under very hard braking on the Dragon.....the bike would do a shimmy when I was braking very hard just before the corner (I don't know if it is fork flex, chassis flex....or the rear wheel being unloaded and scooting around). |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Ruttly on 03/06/17 at 06:58:20 Gary , You are so right about the tires,wanted the tracker look,however kinda enjoy sliding around must be the dirt tracker in me! The Kenda k761 is a heavy tire the front took 3 3/4 ounces to balance rear wasn't bad ! Dave , The front is a 100/110 18 & rear 100/120 18 What brand tires are you running ? |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Dave on 03/06/17 at 07:26:03 My original tires were Pirelli Sport Demons. It is a very nice performance tire - stick like glue and the rear tire wears out in 6 - 8 thousand miles. My current tire is the Bridgestone Battlax BT-45. The rear tire has a strip of harder rubber down the center to allow for more mileage before you get the flat spot down the center. I like this tire as it can be bought in a 100/80 front size - but I don't like the diamond shape pattern on the front tire, when they get some mileage on them they start to make a buzzing noise when you lean over for a turn. The Avon Roadrider AM26 comes in sizes that will work - it may be a good tire but may not be as sticky as the above two. The "Land Speed" folks use these tires as they are available with speed ratings suitable for highs speed record attempts. The Michelin Pilot Activ now comes in the sizes I use, and it may be the next tire that I try. Here is the thread on the Cafe' tire discussion - the purpose is to show why you don't want to install a 130/70-18 tire on a rim that is only 2.50" wide. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1435340395/0 |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Ruttly on 03/06/17 at 10:27:48 Dave , I think Pirelli makes that same tire in a sport touring that might last longer. I've been looking at 18" tires so it's hard to find a good set that makes sizes for front & rear but I will find some. I remember reading that post you sent the link for. Thanks ! |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Dave on 03/06/17 at 10:56:10 153233332B3E470 wrote:
I am not aware of any other Pirelli options that can be bought in a matching front/rear tire set. If you want the best handling bike and you have the 18x2.15 front rim and a 18.2.50 rear rim - I believe you want a 90/90-18 front tire and a 120/80-18 rear tire. But.....tires, like oil and underwear are a very personal choice, and you may not like the stuff that works well for me! |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Ruttly on 03/06/17 at 12:14:07 Dave , Both rims are the same width & 18" . I'll check the width when I get home. One of my SR500s had Pirelli Phantoms and I really trusted those tires and your someone whose opinions I'm sure I can trust. |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Dave on 03/06/17 at 12:54:34 The 18" rims sizes keep us from getting the latest tire technology that the sport bikes use cab buy - the best rubber we can get is Sport Touring tires. That may not be all that bad - as I can get a couple of year of use out of a pair of tires. I have a friend that can wear out a set of tires on his Ducati Multistrada in a week of riding down in the mountains. When we are at the Dragon and scraping pegs....it is pretty humbling when a good rider on a good sportbike with sticky rubber can blow by us at twice our speed! (That is about 6 times the speed of most of the Cruisers! |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/06/17 at 13:50:54 I'm going through tire selection right now for my Street Tracker. 99% sure I'm gonna order the Pirelli Sport Demon in 130/80-18 for the rear (3.50 rim) and 100/90-18 front (2.15 rim). I compared these with the Michelin Pilot Activ's and really went through the specs for both. I'm leaning towards the Pirelli's because they are a dual compound (reinforced) tire with a multi-radius profile (rear). Both the Sport Demon and Pilot Activ's are touring tires, which is exactly what I run on my other road bikes. The super sticky tires don't last and are finicky about warm-up/temperature. |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Ruttly on 03/06/17 at 15:13:32 I won't know how act with stickies on it , but I'm sure it will be a much more relaxing riding not having to be slipin n slidin thru the turns. Hope it ain't too boring ! |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Ruttly on 03/06/17 at 19:36:29 Yeah both front & rear are 2.50 x 18 so suggestions on tire sizes are welcome. Kinda wish they were 17" to get the real good stickies but then again it might make it look like a Honda Grom ! |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Ruttly on 03/06/17 at 21:07:15 Maybe the Pirelli Sport Demon 100/90H18 for front and 120/80H18 for rear |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Dave on 03/07/17 at 03:37:16 If Ruttly or Gary_in_NJ (or anybody else) wants a good used 100/90-18 Pirelli Sport Demon front tire - I have one with about 6,000 miles on it. It is probably about 4 years old. (You pay shipping cost). I also have the 130/70-18 rear that I ran with it.....it has a pretty good flat spot down the center - partly because it was mounting it on a 2.50 rim and not the 3.50 rim it was designed for. (Photo of worn Pirelli with new Bridgestone). http://i58.tinypic.com/fcpow9.jpg http://i58.tinypic.com/w86uds.jpg I liked the Pirelli Sport Demons - however it is not available in the 90/90-18 size, and the 100/90-18 has tall sidewalls and is a very heavy tire compared to the 90/90-18. The rear tire definitely has a shape similar to what the sport bikes use. http://i68.tinypic.com/ok7j1g.jpg The Michelin Sport Activ does not have the same radius on the rear tire as the Sport Demon - it appear more rounded at the edges. http://i65.tinypic.com/xlk00p.jpg The rear Bridgestone Battlax BT45 seems to be between the Pirelli and Michelin in tread profile. The rear has a harder rubber strip down the center to help get more mileage before the flat spot wears in. I like the tires and they come in the sizes I want - but those little diamond shapes in the front tread squirm around when the bike is leaned over, and as a result they wear unevenly and make a humming noise when you lean the bike over in a turn. http://i67.tinypic.com/6f5htx.jpg Maybe I should give the Avon AM26 another look? http://i64.tinypic.com/5nll60.jpg |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/07/17 at 05:30:27 7C474A5D4C405B5D464E435C2F0 wrote:
That's why I have decided to go with the 100/90 on the front and 130/80 for the rear; I think a street tracker should have high aspect ratio tires. Ruttly, I agree with not using 17's on a street tracker. If I could have found good street rubber in 19's I would have gone that big, but 18's are a good compromise. Dave, I can't believe how flat spotted that rear tire got. I wonder how much of that is due to multi-radius profile of the tire. That, combined with it being "squeezed" onto too small of a rim, is probably the culprit. You should be fine with a more rounded radius. The Kenda K671 I'm using has a rounded profile and so far I don't see any strange wear patterns developing. |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Ruttly on 03/07/17 at 06:59:45 Get some good dirt track tires in 19" and they work good just don't last long but they do look bad a$$. Remember many years ago seeing road racers using them as rain tires ! |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Ruttly on 03/07/17 at 10:15:03 Back when the Dunlop K81s were the tire to have I was running the Pirelli Phantoms and you could grind your center stand & exhaust all day long while watching your buddy with K81s sliding off the road in the your mirror. Those were great tires but probably junk in today's standards! Wish they still made them ! They really looked cool ! |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Ruttly on 03/07/17 at 15:15:28 Dave , Thanks for the offer but if I'm going to wrestle with tires they are going to be new ones. Ever try mounting old tires ? |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by smokin_blue on 03/07/17 at 19:28:38 A couple of items for you. I thought I had a better picture but this is the only one I can find that (sort of) shows my steering damper. take a look at the lower triple clamp just inside of the right fork tube. You will see the end of the steering damper and then I hid the body of it under the tank. I am running a Shindy damper which is also sold under the Daytona brand. They are Japanese made and a middle of the road damper but are adjustable and fully rebuild-able. They can be further tuned by changing the weight of the oil in them if needed. http://www.street-unique.com/CafealaCarte/Photos/SHOWRIGHT.JPG I am not running a stock frame as you can see. it has a rake angle of 26 deg. Now a point of thought for those making radical changes and pushing the stock frame. I am working on my Lyster framed project so I have set up a couple of spreadsheets to analyze frame and suspension geometry. The stock frame of the savage has a 35 deg rake and 5.80 in of trail. That would indicate a 2.73 offset in the triple clamps. When one pushes the change in rake you need to also watch your trail and possibly change your offset if you go too far. So as far as rake goes. A bike with a 57" wheelbase will drop 1 degree of rake for every 1" the back end goes up or the front end goes down. So if you raise the back end by 3 inches with shocks and drop the front 2 inches you would be down to a 30" rake. That is still pretty lazy in the sport or standard world. If you drop your front wheel by 1" diameter remember that takes 1/2" off and 1/2" deg also. Now bring trail into the equation. Trail is a function of rake, offset, and wheel diameter. So from my previous number crunching some fast changes can appear. Gary touched on this in his post and I believe his numbers were from measurements and are very close although slightly high but not by much. Watch how the numbers change based on the stock offset of 2.73" Wheel size Rake Trail 19" 35 5.8 this is stock and cruiser range 19" 30 4.17" Now down in modern sport standard range 18" 30 4.1" 19" 29 3.91" lower portion of modern sport standard range 18" 28 3.82" 19" 27 3.65" now pushing low even for sport/race 18" 27 3.54" 19" 26 3.40 " 18" 26 3.27" Push below 30 degrees with the stock triple clamps and you start to really get a short trail. This of course can be corrected by using a triple clamp with less offset. This is why when you look at sport bikes the forks are much closer to being in line with the steering stem versus cruisers with higher rake have to push the forks out ahead of the stem. If memory serves me right Dave changed triple clamps on is cafe bike when he built it. To bring the trail back up to about 4.1" with a 28 deg rake would require a triple an offset of about 2.1-2.15" versus the 2.73 of the stock triple. Last note would be this all assumes the axle is centered at the bottom of the fork. If you use leading axle forks like on most old dirt bikes and the old GS-L models Suzuki used to sell then you run less offset in the triple clamp because you make up for it by moving the axle to the front of the fork lower. All fun! Please don't take it as preaching. Hopefully someone will find it of interest. |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Ruttly on 03/07/17 at 20:55:27 Blue , very nice job in hiding the damper. That is the most bueatiful cafe bike I think I've ever seen , it's freakin awsome ! You should be dam proud of that bike ! Sounds funny but I got in a hurry to finish the tracker after about 2 1/2 years and skipped the derake of the frame , still haven't finished the bike ! And now it really bothers me , I guess if I ever pull the engine out I will do it then. 27 or 28 would be sweet. Thanks for all that rake,trail,offset info , good to learn that stuff and its effects ! I just know I like it steeper than what it is. Looks cool,runs great,handles just fine,stops really good, guess I'll live with it and ride the crap out of it ! ;D |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Ruttly on 03/07/17 at 21:10:25 Blue , How do you measure trail ? |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by smokin_blue on 03/07/17 at 21:23:09 Rutly, I think the easiest would be to have you look at this page. (I updated the link to what I think is a better page) http://bikearama.com/theory/motorcycle-rake-trail-explained/ I have done it by projecting a line down parallel to the fork tube that lines up with the center of the steering stem and mark where that hits the ground. then drop a vertical down from your axle center. measure the distance between the two marks. Calculating it is almost easier (easier to be more exact anyway) |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Ruttly on 03/07/17 at 21:28:40 Blue , Thanks , I will check it out ! |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/08/17 at 05:52:23 Good information Smokin'. My figures of 28 degrees rake and 3.5 inches of trail are measurements. I took the measurements in several configurations; static unloaded (as that is the industry standard) and static loaded because I wanted to see if adding a rider changed the configuration. To my pleasure I didn't detect any changes between the above configurations (no surprise since my race sag figures are correct). To measure the loaded configuration I took the measurements from my race sag and reproduced them while my bike was held in place with tie-down straps. Rake was derived using a inclinometer on my iPhone. Trail was measured at the axle using a square and plumb bob. The shocks on my bike are adjustable in length. with a shock length of 13" is where I get the above rake & trail figures. I did ride the bike with 13.5" shock length and found the steering too light, right at the point of requiring a steering damper. That, and some chain slap on the swingarm during deceleration caused me to choose a shock length of 13". While I had the bike on the stand taking measurements I did note that the rake angle was 27 degrees with a 13.5" shock, confirming your numbers above. I didn't take any trail measurements in that configuration. |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Ruttly on 03/08/17 at 06:47:30 Good stuff guys. I'm learning what I need to know. Easier than trial & error. I usually go by feel and what the the bike is telling me. Right now it says give me new tires !!! |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by LANCER on 03/08/17 at 10:25:38 153233332B3E470 wrote:
I love the smell of New Rubber. Mmmmm ;) 8-) I think this came from when I was a kid and a maintenance truck would come rolling down the road at idle, with workmen behind it carrying containers of some sort filled with hot molten tar that they would pour into the cracks of the pavement...this was "road repair". After the truck passed we would run out into the road and grab small pieces of tar that had dripped in other places and we would chew it like gum. I loved that smell and taste back then. It is the same smell that emanates from a fresh new tire. |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/08/17 at 10:38:10 737E717C7A6D2D281F0 wrote:
:o |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Ruttly on 03/08/17 at 12:02:22 Lancer , That's so funny we would just take a piece out of the back of the truck, pieces that broke off the big chucks before they melted it and chew that all day, wish I had a chunk ! Don't you let me catch you chewin on my new tires !!! ;D |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Ruttly on 03/08/17 at 12:16:01 Roofing tar is just as good ! ;D |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Dave on 03/08/17 at 12:27:25 So....you guys have been chewing on asphalt products....since you were young. That does help me to understand a few things about you guys...... :o |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by LANCER on 03/08/17 at 12:29:42 735455554D58210 wrote:
I liked the warmer chewy stuff. :D |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Ruttly on 03/08/17 at 13:17:37 We would let it sit in the sun to get soft , my dentist used to say it cleans your teeth and removes plaque and would rather see us chewing that than sugary gum !!! I know I'm not right but I can't blame it on chewing tar !! |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by hotrod on 03/08/17 at 13:50:12 Speaking of new tires, where's the cheapest place you've found to buy them ? |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Ruttly on 03/08/17 at 15:31:06 I don't know about cheapest but I use motorcycle superstore fair prices buy 2 tires 2 tubes 2 bands free shipping and it's fast. I think it's anything over 75 bucks is free shipping but check that. They are in Oregon I think , I get stuff quick here in CA . |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/08/17 at 16:30:59 I'm with Rutley on MSS. If you want to compare also check Bike Bandit and Ron Ayers. Ron Ayers always surprises me, they are a great source for OEM and aftermarket parts and equipment. |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by smokin_blue on 03/08/17 at 18:31:14 For tires I like Denniskirk https://www.denniskirk.com/tires they are a mail order place that is headquartered about 45 miles from me. I like them not because they are local but they will beat anyone's prices by a buck, they have free shipping on shipping over $99 ($5 fee on tires) and they have great prices and good in stock selection. Free returns (including shipping) on helmets and clothing. |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Dave on 03/08/17 at 18:58:50 Bike Bandit, Motorcycle Superstore, and most other folks get you tires quickly.....as they don't stock them. They have them shipped to you from the warehouse that is nearest to you. Most times the pair comes from the same place - but sometimes they come from different warehouses if the size aren't common and they found the tires at different warehouse locations. Be sure to check the date codes, and don't accept anything that is more than a year old. The seller will be on your side if the warehouse sends you an old tire.....the seller doesn't want you getting old tires and it will be replaced with a newer one. |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Ruttly on 03/08/17 at 19:36:17 Dave , Please splain how to read date code ,I know again ! |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Dave on 03/09/17 at 03:47:14 On the side of the tire, you will find a lot of wording molded in. You will also find a long number somewhere, and the last 4 digits are "stamped" into the tire....they will look different than all the other wording/letters. The fist 2 digits are the week it was made (52 weeks in a year), the last 2 digits are the year. If the code says 1215 it was made the 12th week of 2015....and you need to send it back as it is 2 years old! In the image below...the tire was made the 51st week of 2007. |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by Ruttly on 03/09/17 at 06:46:30 Thanks Dave , I'm going to write on the garage wall !! |
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Title: Re: Steering Dampner Post by buster6315 on 03/09/17 at 07:25:22 7B6567636166576A647D6D080 wrote:
Their internet site takes some getting used to. I like them for tires also! |
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