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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> About those statues... /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1495726510 Message started by T And T Garage on 05/25/17 at 08:35:10 |
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Title: About those statues... Post by T And T Garage on 05/25/17 at 08:35:10 A fantastic speech from NOLA mayor on the removal of confederate statues in his city: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0jQTHis3f4[/media] |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by raydawg on 05/25/17 at 10:08:19 Have you ever heard the phrase, " Grateful alcoholic" ? Do you understand its implications? |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by T And T Garage on 05/25/17 at 10:09:37 40534B56534555320 wrote:
I can't say that I have. Please elaborate. |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/25/17 at 10:36:25 New one on me.. |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by raydawg on 05/25/17 at 12:48:59 Ok...... I will speak from experience, and how this was shared with me, and how I believe it pertains to this confederate issue. First off, thank you for allowing me to share..,... As a person who went to AA, for help, you learn many things from folks whom went down this path already. The ego would like nothing better than to believe itcan find answers to my problems, etc.... So I look within my self for answers. Well that is pretty dumb, for I search because I am lost, ain't no answer there, is there.... So I listen to others who shared accordingly. To begin a life free of the grip booze had on me, I needed to admit my life was out of control.... I didn't like living under these conditions, that I was certain, but I kept drinking, as it freed me from the guilt, etc, but only until I sobered up, rinse, and repeat. To go forward with any chance of sobriety, I had to leave the past behind me, or it would drag me back. Yet, I had to also acknowledge the past too.... Seems a paradox. Of course I am leaving out much, giving you just a quick explanation, but in order for me to clear my books, I had to realize that every thing I did in the past, has brought me to the present...... And this means everything.. .... You can't pick and choose if you really want to move on successfully. Now in the present, I am seeking a better way to live, one that is sustainable and free of the baggage that I use to drag around that use to justify my need to drink..... Now the future exsist so that I too can give back what others gave, freely, without expectation, but with hope it might help another were I once was. Not sure if I explained myself well, but I sense healing of all the damage slavery caused, etc, won't be erased by removing confederate history, no. Furthermore I think it plays an extremely important part in realizing the wrongs of the past, etc, but we leave in there, in the past, not deny it, no, but use it to overcome the stigma, etc, that is still tethered to it if we put too much empathist on historical things.... Sure, it is easy for me as a white dude to say that, however, I have heard from many black people they let this historical past drag them into the slavery of taskmaster John Barleycorn. No one escapes finding ugly things in their lives, we can't always change that, no, however, we needn't let it rob us of the present, either. Just my sole observation, nothing more. Again, thanks for asking and letting me share this. |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by stewmills on 05/25/17 at 13:18:32 So we are removing Confederate monuments because they are reminders, signs, visible reminders, etc. of the era of slavery. Answer me this...How would all of these crybabies feel if we also removed all of the slavery and civil rights museums? Let's be fair...they are just as strong, if not stronger, of a reminder of these times than a statue of a General or political leader of the era. |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by T And T Garage on 05/25/17 at 13:40:01 67607163797D787867140 wrote:
Not even close to the same thing. Watch the video. This is about the narrative that these statues represent and the confederacy supporters. These generals and others in the confederacy were NOT patriots. They fought to dismantle the Union. On the other hand, museums teach history. They provide a historical account of what happened. They don't try and change the narrative. If that statue's plaque said that lee was a confederate general and that he fought to separate the Union, to enable slavery to continue - so be it. That would be an accurate description. But that was not the intent. |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by T And T Garage on 05/25/17 at 13:51:24 594A524F4A5C4C2B0 wrote:
Not to belittle anything you've done with AA - it's fantastic that you did it - Kudos to you! It takes a strong person to prevail through alcoholism. It's a terrible disease. More than one of my family members has struggled with alcoholism - one died, one is still struggling and the rest are now sober. With that said, IMHO - to not remove these statues, that try and steer thoughts of heroism towards the brave fighters of the confederacy, is like you keeping a bottle of your favorite alcohol always within an arm's reach. You might be strong enough to resist it, but why endure the anxiety it brings you every day? Say what you will about lee and the other confederate soldiers - they may have been tactically great military men, but the cause was nothing short of keeping slavery in the South and destroying the Union. |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by raydawg on 05/25/17 at 14:06:36 6C727D7C716C776A180 wrote:
Not to belittle anything you've done with AA - it's fantastic that you did it - Kudos to you! It takes a strong person to prevail through alcoholism. It's a terrible disease. More than one of my family members has struggled with alcoholism - one died, one is still struggling and the rest are now sober. With that said, IMHO - to not remove these statues, that try and steer thoughts of heroism towards the brave fighters of the confederacy, is like you keeping a bottle of your favorite alcohol always within an arm's reach. You might be strong enough to resist it, but why endure the anxiety it brings you every day? Say what you will about lee and the other confederate soldiers - they may have been tactically great military men, but the cause was nothing short of keeping slavery in the South and destroying the Union. [/quote] You have the luxury of hindsight, on your side But keeping it in context, in was a growing pain the country had to go through, understand history, the issue was polarizing the nation. Slavery was acceptable to much of the world in these days. But because if this, we are better for it today. I see so many of you here dwelling in past arguments, without realizing how you keep yourself in bondage. |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by T And T Garage on 05/25/17 at 14:15:36 2B38203D382E3E590 wrote:
The past is indeed a part of us - but if we can't learn from it, we'll be doomed to repeat (the worst) of it. |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by raydawg on 05/25/17 at 14:45:04 405E51505D405B46340 wrote:
The past is indeed a part of us - but if we can't learn from it, we'll be doomed to repeat (the worst) of it. [/quote] Exactly...... And so many folks believed in the south, etc. It was so much more than just slavery of black folks, but it has become that, and I dare say so folk can still capitalize off of it. As much as he was, and I guess, still herald, by many, it shows the fallacy of putting too much faith in ideas that pit beliefs, against one another. The stigma will live on, and give fuel to bias, hate, and prejudice, because no one is willing to let the light shine on the truth, as ugly as it is, was. |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by Armen on 05/28/17 at 09:07:53 One of the best speeches by an American politician in as long as I can remember. In Germany, there are museums with Nazi stuff on display. They are hiding, or hiding from their past. They realize how horrible they were. There aren't any statues of Nazis in public places. I'm all for having Confederate stuff in museums. Not in public places where it makes them out as heroes. These folks were traitors who took up arms against the United States of America. in their so called 'War of Northern Aggression', they fired the first shots and started a war that led to the deaths of more Americans than all the other wars combined. To put the numbers in perspective, if that war happened today, there would be 6-8 million Americans killed. Tens of millions wounded. How would you feel if there was a group who started a war to make the 'Islamic States of America', caused major losses of life, and were eventually defeated? And years later there were statues erected to honor the ones who started the war? Name one other country that has statues in public places honoring people who caused such grief to their own people. It's over. They lost. Thank God. |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by Serowbot on 05/28/17 at 09:27:56 +1... Well said... 67544B4348260 wrote:
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by pg on 05/28/17 at 14:34:31 1F2C333B305E0 wrote:
China http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/160105134640-chairman-mao-exlarge-169.jpg Russia http://https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/185aa5lnlny02jpg.jpg They even embalmed Lenin. http://https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c4/Lenin-mausoleum.jpg "Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past." Best regards, |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by pg on 05/28/17 at 14:45:11 The Civil War was not about Slavery or any noble value. It was about states remaining sovereign. Lincoln didn’t believe blacks should have the same rights as whites. Though Lincoln argued that the founding fathers’ phrase “All men are created equal” applied to blacks and whites alike, this did not mean he thought they should have the same social and political rights. His views became clear during an 1858 series of debates with his opponent in the Illinois race for U.S. Senate, Stephen Douglas, who had accused him of supporting “negro equality.” In their fourth debate, at Charleston, Illinois, on September 18, 1858, Lincoln made his position clear. “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races,” he began, going on to say that he opposed blacks having the right to vote, to serve on juries, to hold office and to intermarry with whites. What he did believe was that, like all men, blacks had the right to improve their condition in society and to enjoy the fruits of their labor. In this way they were equal to white men, and for this reason slavery was inherently unjust. http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-may-not-know-about-lincoln-slavery-and-emancipation It is referred to as the War of Northern Aggression for a reason. http://https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/American_Civil_War_Battles_by_Theater%2C_Year.png/550px-American_Civil_War_Battles_by_Theater%2C_Year.png Best regards, |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by Serowbot on 05/28/17 at 18:06:26 6077717D7262100 wrote:
BS, neocon, revisionist , history... The only "States rights" at issue, was the right to own slaves... That makes it about slavery... Other interpretations are evasion... It was about slavery... "...shortly after Abraham Lincoln was elected. The nationalists of the Union proclaimed loyalty to the U.S. Constitution. They faced secessionists of the Confederate States of America advocating states’ rights to perpetual slavery and its expansion in the Americas." |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by Armen on 05/28/17 at 19:00:50 Like it or not, the difference between a 'freedom fighter' and a 'terrorist/traitor' is whether your side wins or loses. Mao's and Lenin's gangs still run the show in their countries. Look for a statue honoring the White Russians in Russia, or Chaing Kai Shek in China. It'll take a while to find one. Because they don't exist. As to where the Civil War battles were fought, last time I checked, Gettysburg was in Pa. The South was wrong. They lost. It was 150+ years ago. Get over it. The rewriting of southern history is like the Japanese calling WWII the 'War of Western Aggression' (which they do). They forget that they drew first blood at Pearl Harbor. Forget how they murdered a million Chinese. Forget the death marches. A lot of similarities between the Japanese rewriting history and the BS now being spewed by the South about the Civil War. I do understand that there were two wars being fought. The North was fighting to preserve the United States of America. The South was fighting for their 'way of life', of which slavery was a key part. I understand that no Northern soldier went to war to free slaves. I also understand that the Southerners were fighting to destroy the United States of America, the country I was born and raised in, and love dearly. So glad they lost. It was a spectacular act of Christian charity that Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis weren't hanged as traitors. |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by pg on 05/28/17 at 19:34:03 51627D757E100 wrote:
Do you believe the Communists are still in power in Russia? The Soviet Union was dissolved at the end of 1991..... Best regards, |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by pg on 05/28/17 at 19:39:14 392F38253D28253E4A0 wrote:
I didn't revise this letter. Executive Mansion, Washington, August 22, 1862. Hon. Horace Greeley: Dear Sir. I have just read yours of the 19th. addressed to myself through the New-York Tribune. If there be in it any statements, or assumptions of fact, which I may know to be erroneous, I do not, now and here, controvert them. If there be in it any inferences which I may believe to be falsely drawn, I do not now and here, argue against them. If there be perceptable in it an impatient and dictatorial tone, I waive it in deference to an old friend, whose heart I have always supposed to be right. As to the policy I "seem to be pursuing" as you say, I have not meant to leave any one in doubt. I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views. I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free. Yours, A. Lincoln. http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/greeley.htm Best regards, |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by Serowbot on 05/29/17 at 08:18:53 Yes,... in the letter, Lincoln is saying his sole and primary focus is to save the Union... Admitted... ..but,... the thing that is destroying the Union is still... dispute over the right to own slaves... It just cannot be gotten around. Slavery... is the issue... The "States rights" argument is a false flag. The State right in dispute is the right to own slaves... It is what it is... It needs to be acknowledged... Ugly, but true... |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by Armen on 05/29/17 at 12:13:47 PG, The former head of the KGB runs Russia. I'd say the l'd say the old gang is still in charge. |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by WebsterMark on 05/29/17 at 16:14:27 It was a spectacular act of Christian charity that Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis weren't hanged as traitors. Hardly that. As demonstrated by his letter, Lincoln was a pragmatist; going after the leaders would have kept that fire going. But, of course The Civil War was over slavery. State's right defenders have to put together a tortured defense to explain away the obvious cause of the war. If the South outlawed slavery, there would not have been a war. If the North had ignored it, there would not have been a war. |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by pg on 05/29/17 at 20:25:40 Yes, slavery was of course the central point of contention, but as an example of state sovereignty versus federal authority. The war was fought over state’s rights and the limits of federal power in a union of states. The perceived threat to state autonomy became an existential one through the specific dispute over slavery. The issue was not slavery per se, but who decided whether slavery was acceptable, local institutions or a distant central government power. Southern states sought to secede because they believed that the federal government had no authority to tell them how to run their affairs. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by raydawg on 05/30/17 at 05:50:25 If you go and read the arguments when the founding fathers were drafting documents, state rights vs. federal power almost never came to an agreement. Also, the bigger more populace states wanted more say as well, over the smaller states. Go read the facts, stop with the regurgitation of out of context and pigeon holing data to make it seem what it's not. History can never be changed. |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/30/17 at 06:34:35 History is a pack of lies. Texas history books are different than when I went to school. They had to be changed so as to not injure little feelings. What we were told, the TRUTHS that must be known and used as answers to test questions, some of that is nothing but bullshit. What happened to the Liberty? What lies were you taught? What about Vietnam? We HAD to respond to Their Aggression? Right? And the dastardly deeds of the Iraqis, tossing babies out of incubators, lies, lies, lies, When you are able to PROVE you've been lied to by the government, the media and the schools, if you continue to believe them, you're an idiot. |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by T And T Garage on 05/31/17 at 15:04:01 So to sum up... The confederacy wanted to keep slavery. Lincoln wasn't as much a humanitarian as he was a segregationist. The south lost and there's no going back. Traitors shouldn't have statues erected in their honor, right? Done and done. |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/31/17 at 15:08:17 No, but it's not possible to teach the befuddled by the government line anything that conflicts with the training. |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by Serowbot on 05/31/17 at 15:16:55 253B343538253E23510 wrote:
...and done... :) |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/31/17 at 15:44:42 Yeah, and the answer to the test question on Nam was We had to because They Attacked our ship. And We Were Taught That.. And it was a LIE. And the one eyed will go on seeing only what they are told to see. |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by pg on 05/31/17 at 18:25:27 Yeah but if a few states were allowed to leave the union, just think of all the gun loving, bible thumper, deplorables who would not be eligible to participate in elections? Best regards, |
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Title: Re: About those statues... Post by MnSpring on 06/01/17 at 11:52:35 Yea, gotta get rid of those, ’NASTY’, reminders of History. Just like, Gov. ‘Goofy’, wanted to remove Painting from The State Capital. When the State Capital in Minn, was finished being refurbished. He did NOT, want to re hang, ANY, of the 150 Year old Paintings. Depicting, Soldiers, in Blue Uniforms, with a ’Stars & Strips’, flag, Their was a up roar. But a, ‘comprise’ was reached. ’SOME’, got re-hung, in a very, ‘out of the way’, place. Interesting, the big up-roar, about a new, ‘art’ sculpture in Mpls. Looks a Lot like the, hanging scaffold, in 1862, where 38, “Terrorists’, (what they were, then), were hanged. Of course, ‘History’, (or the Snowflakes), Do NOT, mention, that over, 1,000 were tried, and only 38 were convicted, after, 800 + Settlers, were Brutally Tortured & Murdered, (And, the young women were Raped) In their OWN Home, with out any warning. Oh, back to the, ‘art’. By, the news videos, probably 12-15 people, ‘protested’. They said: “It was, bad art". And now it will be taken down. Oh, but wait. Is that not, Precisely what, this thread started as? Take DOWN, Reminders of the, Losers ????? Revision, of History. Already Being Done. 1969, the, ‘FACTS”, the Lunar Landing Module, Was Landed by, a Human Pilot, After he shut OFF, the Overloaded Computer. And Books, MANY Books. Just one small example, in 1965, a man wrote about a certain rifle, and made the statement about a ‘wore’ out one. “Ya Couldn’t Hit a Flock of Barns, if you stood inside of one” That book, has been reprinted 12 times. In the early 70's, that Statement, (made by the Original Author), was removed, and replaced with. “Many bad things, have been said about that rifle”. Your Grand children, and their children, will say, “Holocaust” ????? What was that? “Oh, that thing, I am taught in school, that never really happened?” So Yea, Take down, ALL, the reminders, of things, that, ’snowflakes’, think, ‘offensive’. After all, “THEY”, Lost ! And the, ‘War of Northern Aggression”, the, ‘War Between the States”. Had, absolutely, Nothing to do, with, ’States Rights’. Well, according to the, ‘Revisionist History’, of the ’Snowflakes’. Just In: City Council Removes Veterans Memorial Voters Remove City Council http://www.patriotchronicle.com/city-council-removes-veterans-memorial-voters-remove-city-council/#sm22_alm_page0_2drepeat Wonder if that will be reported by CNN, NY, WP. ??????? |
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