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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> air fuel mixture thread pitch /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1513880465 Message started by Mnheights on 12/21/17 at 10:21:04 |
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Title: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by Mnheights on 12/21/17 at 10:21:04 I just bought my second Suzuki Savage LS650. Anyway, I started rebuilding the carburetor and had a very difficult time getting the air/fuel mixture screw out, I mean a very difficult time! Screwed it in three full turns and backed it out 3 full turns, and then someone put the brakes on hard! Used WD-40 and ground the sides of a new screwdriver to fit hole and fit what was left of the slot on brass needle. Anyway, finally got it out! I have ordered two new air/fuel mixture screws. Question: what are the threads? I think they are M6 X 0.75 but not sure. I want to run a tap to clean up threads, good or bad idea? :-[ |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by kojones on 12/21/17 at 11:23:29 I'd tap that. Quite sure it's fine pitched, M6x0.5 if I have to quess. I bought a correct sized tap just for that and messed the threads, couldn't find it to check the size. |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by LANCER on 12/21/17 at 12:25:53 When the factory installs the screw they dimple the outer threads, which I assume is their way of assuring that it does not fall out from vibration, As if it needed it. I've never had one come loose on me. |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/21/17 at 12:26:57 I'd risk wrecking a idle air screw before I ran a cutting tool into the carb. I'd be a lot more comfortable with hitting it with penetrating oil, wait, hit it, wait and use a gun cleaning wire brush, spinning it in and out of, letting the bristles sweep the threads. |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by Mnheights on 12/21/17 at 15:10:37 I bought a 'lighted' magnifying lens from Harbor Freight. Put the bad pilot adjusting screw (air fuel mixture) under the magnifier and put a MM ruler next to threads. Top of one thread to top off next thread (pitch) is 0.5 MM. So it is a M6 X 0.5 I am waiting for the new adjusting screws and will try using oil and 'gently' screwing into carburetor. Threads on adjusting screw seem rounded, and outer most, top thread did look as if it had been hit. The threads in carburetor looked good. Will see what happens. If I need to buy a M6 X 0.5 tap, does anyone know who sells the tap & die? :-/ :-/ |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/21/17 at 15:19:56 Available in so many places.. Don't get a bottom hole tap. |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by Dave on 12/21/17 at 15:28:05 The 6 x 0.5 aluminum threads for the idle fuel screw can become corroded, and it makes it nearly impossible to get the old screw out - and just as hard to get a new screw in without ruining it. The new brass screw is too soft to restore the aluminum threads - and the brass screw slot doesn't allow you to monkey around with it too much. I have cleaned up the aluminum threads with a tap....and it works great. The spring and O-ring keep the idle fuel screw in place. I have a tap.....you can use it provide you pay shipping both ways, and put a small deposit so that I get it back....I believe it was about $12 when I bought it. (I bought the tap at a local hardware store that caters to contractors - and it has a very nice selection of taps and dies). |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by Mnheights on 12/21/17 at 16:04:40 Dave, I will check a couple of the local hardware stores first. If I can't find the tap, I will take you up on your offer. Everyone, thank you for your help and suggestions. By the way, both LS650's are 2003 models, and were not running when purchased. I have been riding the first one for two years and bought the second last week. Trying to get Julie to get her permit...I am selling my bigger motorcycles, for around town you can't beat the Suzuki Savage LS650! -Bill |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/21/17 at 18:49:46 A dremel cut off disk , used right, will make a bolt into a thread chaser. Just a slice into the bolt and Bob's your uncle. |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by IslandRoad on 12/22/17 at 00:12:24 584741465B5C6D5D6D55474B00320 wrote:
I did exactly that to re-thread the side mounts for my seat. Those little buggers are prone to cross-threading! Worked a treat. |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by Dave on 12/22/17 at 04:55:40 3A252324393E0F3F0F37252962500 wrote:
That does work well on a hardened steel bolt - it doesn't work on these soft brass fuel mixture screws. |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by piedmontbuckeye on 12/22/17 at 06:46:47 7C5F59545856594542310 wrote:
Best place for most anything: McMaster-Carr - great place to do business, and they also have a great online catalog. |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/22/17 at 09:15:30 I'm sure I'd never suggest that with brass. I've been using bolts for such a trick for years. They don't cost near as much as a tap. |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by Armen on 12/24/17 at 17:13:56 MSC is great for oddball taps and dies. |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by Mnheights on 12/30/17 at 22:01:32 I received the taps today and also received new brass air/fuel needle valve. Cleaned the threads with tap and put new needle valve in. Put Carb back on and started her up. Seem to run OK, then noticed smoke and oil leak under exhaust, at head. As I mentioned before, I just bought LS650 and have found quite a bit wrong. So, I wasn't surprised to find a 'nut' missing under the exhaust, M8 X coarse thread. Looks like it has been off quite awhile. The nut on rear of engine was there. I found a nut that fit, put it on and tightened. Anyway, started up and ran it. To cold to run outside, -11 degrees F. Otherwise, I would take it for a drive. Question: Should the head bolts be re-torqued? Am I wasting my time and should tear engine down for Head gasket? :'( :'( |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by Dave on 12/31/17 at 02:15:42 Get it running before you take the head cap off......you need to see if the rest of the engine works properly and is worth spending time on. Scrub the engine well (I use Bike Bright), as that will help you identify where the leaks are coming from. The nut up front does weep oil if loose (or missing). The original nut has a smooth flange built into the nut - it is good to use sealer on the threads and a small amount under the flange on the nut. Don't use a lock washer or nut with the serrated flange - as those will dig into the aluminum and prevent the nut from being able to seal. If the oil leak doesn't go away - it will likely require you to remove the head cap and replace the plug over the right front cylinder/head stud, as those are consistent leakers. When the head cap is off you can torque the cylinder - you need to remove the nuts and washers 1 at a time, clean up the threads on the stud and nut, then torque them. The left front and right rear studs can weep oil - so you need to put some sealant on both side of the washers......and a generous amount of anti-seize on the studs. Torque them up just a bit under the recommended amount as you remove and replace them 1 at a time - then torque them all up to the recommended value in a criss/cross pattern before the anti-seize and sealant dries. Use the Verslagen head plug, and use the recommended Suzukibond sealant - it is much easier to use than the gasket maker you get at the big box stores....it sets up slower and it has more body (and the tube lasts for years as it doesn't get hard in the tube). The nut(s) under the exhaust and intake port are short head bolts, and they should be torqued as well - however I don't have anything that can reach in there and accurately torque them - so I just snug them up tight (not two handed tight). |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by Mnheights on 12/31/17 at 14:06:10 As you suggest, I will clean the engine and run it to check it over. The nut I used has the smooth flange as part of the nut. I will get some Suzuki bond sealant. Let the adventure begin! :) Note: Incase anyone is interested: M6 X 0.5 HS Plug Tap = $4.60 each M6 X 0.5 HS Round Die =$8.50 M6 X 0.75 HS Plug Tap = $3.60 From: Victor Machinery, Inc. 33-53 62nd Street Woodside, New York 11377 Phone: (800) 723-5359 Fax: (718) 899-0556 Email: sales@victornet.com |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by Mnheights on 01/05/18 at 21:52:34 Thought I would update 2003 LS650 status. Got running and didn't sound to good, found intake and exhaust valves to be very tight and adjusted. Then wouldn't start, just a very faint click. Anyway, we found the Decompression controller solenoid to be bad. Spent some time finding because it would work, then not work, depending on it's mood I suppose. Anyway, long story short; did leak down test (held piston at top dead center) valves closed...hissing noise out of exhaust. Did compression test (jumped starter solenoid so Decompression didn't work) and it was 85 to 90 psi. Decided to take the plunge and R&R engine...the good deal is turning out to be quite the learning experience. The adventure continues :) :) |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/05/18 at 22:05:09 Bummers, plural, |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by Mnheights on 01/05/18 at 23:08:45 514E484F52556454645C4E42093B0 wrote:
Now we get to build a good runner! 8-) |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by Dave on 01/06/18 at 04:30:42 It does sound like you need to take things apart and do an inspection to see what is healthy and what is sick. If the valves are not healthy - they need to be replaced as they are very thin and have a surface hardening - they cannot be ground. There are some India made aftermarket versions that are a bit cheaper than the factory ones.....not sure if they are good enough to use? The valve seats can be ground if needed. While the head is apart, it is a good time to clean up the ports and smooth out the restrictive donut in the exhaust port. If you are unsure of the age......new valve seals are most likely worthwhile. If the bore is in good shape, then a 94mm Wiseco can be used and will save you the expense and potential risk of getting the cylinder bored for an oversize 95/96/97mm piston. The larger pistons offer a very small increase in power....the higher compression that all Wiseco pistons provide is where most the extra power comes from. The stock 94mm piston makes 652cc, the 95mm makes 666cc, the 96mm makes 680cc, the 97mm makes 694cc. So if we assume the extra compression takes the HP up from the stock 30 to 35 HP with the 94mm Wiseco, the 95mm would make 35.7, the 96mm would make 36.5, and the 97mm would make 37.2....so as an approximation there is only about a 2.2 HP difference between the largest and smallest Wiseco. You should compare the cost of the different size pistons and the cost for the overbore is worth the HP difference to you. (If your cylinder is damaged than an overbore will be necessary). Camshaft - The performance camshaft is definitely worthwhile and it does make mor power. The engine still is very mild mannered and has strong torque and you don't have to rev the engine to make things happen - as the camshaft grind is not very exotic and the engine still is smooth and docile. Cylinder threads - While you have it apart look carefully at the 3 threaded holes for the long 6mm cylinder head cover. These threads can be damaged and require the engine to be taken apart to fix stripped threads. If there is any doubt - have Heli-coil inserts installed while the engine is apart. Verslagen head plug - Buy and install the Verslagen head plug cap instead of the stock rubber/plastic one. Cam chain - If the cam chain tensioner is extended close to the 20mm maximum, buy and install the nitrided cam chain from Lancer. Assembly RTV - Buy and use the Suzukibond or Threebond, don't buy generic gasket maker at the big box or auto store. The original stuff works better and is easier to use. |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by verslagen1 on 01/06/18 at 09:41:05 Honda bond is another. |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by Dave on 01/06/18 at 11:22:26 I also believe the poor cylinder head design is a big reason that the LS650 is 30HP and the DR650 is 50 HP. Going to a bigger piston will likely get you an equal increase in low rpm torque - but with the poor flow in the cylinder head you will likely not get an equal increase in upper RPM horsepower. The bigger piston may just get you to the place where the head flow suffers and bit sooner than a smaller piston does - a smaller piston engine may run better at higher rpm than a similar big piston engine. If you spend most of your time at lower rpm....maybe the bigger piston is better. If you spend a lot of time on the interstate........maybe a smaller piston engine is better? :-? |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by kojones on 01/06/18 at 18:45:18 53686572636F747269616C73000 wrote:
There's also Japanese valves, manufacturer Vesrah http://catalog.vesrah.co.jp/catalog/shape/GG-3031.html Very high quality but much cheaper than Suzuki, at least in Europe. |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by Dave on 01/07/18 at 03:40:57 I thought Vesrah was made in India? :-? Anybody know how they stack up against the Suzuki stock part? |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by kojones on 01/07/18 at 05:14:27 69525F4859554E48535B56493A0 wrote:
They look exactly the same. |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by Mnheights on 01/12/18 at 12:02:43 Status update on 2003 LS650. Did get bike running, didn't sound good. Adjusted the valves, better...but not good enough. Long story short has low compression, 85 psi holding throttle wide open. Now going the hard way and have parts all over the garage. Waiting for piston, tensioner, etc. Hopefully, I can get it back together correctly. Fortunately for me, I have a secret source for information putting LS650 bike together... :) :) |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by Dave on 01/12/18 at 12:39:48 4261676A6668677B7C0F0 wrote:
You did disconnect the compression release cable prior to making the compression test? :-? |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by Mnheights on 01/12/18 at 13:41:03 Good point, yes I did. If it would have been 120 psi I think I would have tried using bike for awhile to see how performance would be, but at 85 psi not anywhere near good enough. |
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Title: Re: air fuel mixture thread pitch Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/12/18 at 18:27:03 714A4750414D56504B434E51220 wrote:
You did disconnect the compression release cable prior to making the compression test? :-?[/quote] We dido the piston rings are bad and the valves are bad to time for new parts |
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