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Message started by RazBarlow on 12/22/17 at 13:04:42

Title: Bleed or Not To Bleed ?
Post by RazBarlow on 12/22/17 at 13:04:42

What is the benefit to either pilot jet and are they interchangeable ?

Title: Re: Bleed or Not To Bleed ?
Post by Serowbot on 12/22/17 at 15:21:51

In our carbs,.. there is no difference...
Saves a lot of introspection... :-?

Title: Re: Bleed or Not To Bleed ?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/22/17 at 18:16:41

I Try to avoid bleeding.
I fail often.

Title: Re: Bleed or Not To Bleed ?
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 12/23/17 at 06:22:18

I'm confused, what are we bleeding? Did the op intend to start a brake thread but accidentally asked a carb question?

Title: Re: Bleed or Not To Bleed ?
Post by Serowbot on 12/23/17 at 06:55:27

2C262228232A2E27797F7B4B0 wrote:

I'm confused, what are we bleeding?

Pilot jets with bleed holes or without...
;)

Either that,.. or an Alice Cooper song... :-/

Title: Re: Bleed or Not To Bleed ?
Post by RazBarlow on 12/23/17 at 07:11:37

Nope ,
I am on track .
No brakes here, carb tuning detail.

Title: Re: Bleed or Not To Bleed ?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/23/17 at 07:24:59

Tiny holes in something inside the carb I think.

Title: Re: Bleed or Not To Bleed ?
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 12/23/17 at 10:13:27

Well then, please explain carb bleeding.

Title: Re: Bleed or Not To Bleed ?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/23/17 at 10:39:23

Actually I'm not sure exactly what the guy is talking about, I'm just guessing.
Maybe we will be discussing jetting brakes later?

Title: Re: Bleed or Not To Bleed ?
Post by verslagen1 on 12/23/17 at 10:43:34

You can get pilot jets with bleeder holes or not.
From descriptions from those that have gotten them, it looks like the bleeder holes cause the same jet size to be richer.
Maybe they just atomize the fuel better and make it more efficient.
It would take someone with an exhaust analyzer to tell.

Title: Re: Bleed or Not To Bleed ?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/23/17 at 10:58:47

I.C.E. breathalyzer..

Title: Re: Bleed or Not To Bleed ?
Post by IslandRoad on 12/23/17 at 11:24:45

This thread has been like a cryptic crossword! ;D

I woke up this morning with it on my mind, and think I get it now lol

I think Verslagen's first post was the answer ... it was cryptic too!!

Title: Re: Bleed or Not To Bleed ?
Post by batman on 12/23/17 at 11:42:11

For our use the holes on the side of the jet do nothing! They are air emulsion holes, and would be used to add air to the fuel going to the carb IF we had an air mix screw, but we don't we have a fuel mix screw, and there is no passage that leads to the side of our pilot jet for either fuel or air thus these extra holes don't do a thing.

Title: Re: Bleed or Not To Bleed ?
Post by verslagen1 on 12/23/17 at 13:33:37

I found this on the net for the BS40.
It shows the pilot jet being vented in the side and this occurs well before any metering.
http://pinkpossum.com/GT750/carb/pilot.jpg

Also found something I didn't know... there are 2 types of pilot jets, ours are the ones on the left.
http://pinkpossum.com/GT750/carb/Mikuni_Jets.gif

Title: Re: Bleed or Not To Bleed ?
Post by Dave on 12/23/17 at 14:03:54

The bleed holes are used in carbs that provide air to the sides of the pilot jet, and the air is mixed with the fuel coming from the float bowl. The size and number of holes in the pilot jet can affect the fuel/air ratio of the pilot jet, and it is used for fine tuning the carb.

The stock Savage carb does not use the bleed holes, and there are no drilled passage to allow air to flow into the side of the jet......so the pilot jets with or without the bleed holes all work the same - as there is no source of air for the bleed holes to get any air. You can use the pilot jets with our without holes - it won't make a difference.

Here is a thread with a nice diagram that illustrates the lack of any air passage to the bleed screws in the stock Savage carb.
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1496814399/6#6

Title: Re: Bleed or Not To Bleed ?
Post by batman on 12/24/17 at 18:49:56

The drawing of the carb Vercy shows is not our carb. I believe it is a BS-40 , but ours is a BS-40-SS ,just looking at both drawings you will note that even the shape of the bottom of the slides is different Dave's matches ours as the slide has no cut away , it is flat, and the air jet only supplies air to the needle (main ) jet . there is no passage to the pilot jet as Dave and I stated earlier .Both types of pilot jet will function the same .

Title: Re: Bleed or Not To Bleed ?
Post by RazBarlow on 12/24/17 at 19:30:22

So, in other words but which ever ones are cheaper .

Title: Re: Bleed or Not To Bleed ?
Post by batman on 12/24/17 at 21:21:47

Yes ,but it won't help you much ,I hate to say it but your intake and exhaust systems(pictured) don't lend themselves to good performance. You need to research what does.

Title: Re: Bleed or Not To Bleed ?
Post by Dave on 12/25/17 at 02:52:04

This bleed/no bleed holes issue is confusing....even to experienced folks like the techs at Jets-R-Us and Sudco. The problem arises is there are so many different carb styles, and most of them to have pilot jets that require bleed holes......our Savage carb does not provide any air to the carb body surrounding the pilot jet - so the bleed holes serve no function. That is why the original jet doesn't have any holes. If you are in doubt about this issue.....carefully inspect the place where the pilot jet screws into the carb, and you will not find any drilled passages that supply air to the side of the pilot jet.

If you order new replacement pilot jets online or from a dealer - buy them without the bleed holes. If you go to your local dealer, bike shop or have a friend who has pilot jets with bleed holes - go ahead and use them as the holes won't do a thing - as there is no air source for the bleed holes....the pilot jet will work as if it didn't have any holes the side.
(Armen should use the pilot jet with bleed holes to save weight... in his quest for the ultimate lightest Savage). ;D

If there is no opposition to this issue - I will prepare a thread on this issue to be placed in the Tech Session.....as this subject comes up fairly often.

Title: Re: Bleed or Not To Bleed ?
Post by Dave on 12/25/17 at 03:03:11

74475C4447544A4951260 wrote:

So, in other words but which ever ones are cheaper .

Title: Re: Bleed or Not To Bleed ?
Post by RazBarlow on 12/25/17 at 05:35:45

6C575A4D5C504B4D565E534C3F0 wrote:

[quote author=74475C4447544A4951260 link=1513976682/15#16 date=1514172622]So, in other words but which ever ones are cheaper .

Batman and I are in agreement on this one......a POD filter and a muffler that you poke a broom stick through make it very difficult to get a good running engine. The pod filter creates a turbulent air stream, often has a very limited amount of filter media area, some block the slide vent at the top of the carb, and they can make if very difficult to jet the carb in a way that provides a smooth power delivery. An unrestricted exhaust also makes it difficult to get a good running engine, and your power may be reduced. (If you still want cheap and loud, the EMGO short megaphone does provide a baffle system that provides adequate restriction - while still being obnoxiously loud).[/quote]

I smell what you are stepping in .
But this is a Father / Son build and my son thinks that it looks cool .
He thinks if RYCA uses the pod filters on their builds that they must work good .
And he likes the look of the shorty .
My motto is " Function Over Fashion " but sometimes he doesn't agree.

This will be his first street bike so I am thinking things like these will change after he gets some miles under his belt .

Hey ,
Have A Merry Christmas !!!

Title: Re: Bleed or Not To Bleed ?
Post by batman on 12/25/17 at 10:08:03

Raz , I don't smell what your stepping in, You state that top speed is not a concern ,if the bike will do 75mph ,but you would like faster acceleration, then you ask if a150 /90/15 tire will fit the bike The stock140/80/15 or a 140/90/15 would allow faster acceleration. The pod filter would not be so bad if you placed it on an extended intake ,which would allow the flow of air to straighten before entering the carb ,the length of the extension could also increase compression and power in certain ranges of rpm by 4-7-or 10% better VE.The length of the exhaust header is 32 " stock with the length being normally between 30 and 34" for motors of 650cc ,longer favors lower rpm ,shorter favors higher , but the pressure wave needs to expand at the end of the header pipe to reverse and reach the exhaust valve just before it closes to remove the last gases and help draw in a fresh charge .the adapter between the header and muffler does not allow the wave to expand and so it has to travel all the way to the end of the muffler where it reverses but arrives back at the exhaust valve much to late and finds it closed . so everything you have done to the bike has moved you farther away from your goal.Changing to what I assume is a larger pilot jet will ,drop your mpg,foul your plug and and you'll not see any more power ,because the motor isn't "breathing" .You and your boy need to rethink this ,pretty don't cut it! Ryca's design for their intake and exhaust on their hardtail is one of the worst for performance of any kit I've ever seen,(JUNK) if you think they new what they were doing your sadly mistaken.their header pipe is way to short( our bikes don't turn 9000 rpm)and their stock muffler uses fiberglass packing which blows out in a week. A pod filter bolted directly on the carb produces less power than the stock air box and filter.