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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Which is it? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1519066096 Message started by WebsterMark on 02/19/18 at 10:48:15 |
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Title: Which is it? Post by WebsterMark on 02/19/18 at 10:48:15 1. Election security is so sacrosanct that a foreign country hiring professional Twitter trolls to spew false info is an "act of war." 2. We shouldn't even ask voters for the same ID they need to buy a six pack because there's no evidence of voter fraud. Pick one. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by FormerlyLostArtist on 02/19/18 at 11:46:06 6B595E4F48594E715D4E573C0 wrote:
I'm fine with both, but if you are going to do the ID, the government needs to pay for it or at least have it able to be done at the polls, since people are going to vote there anyway. Don't make poor, fixed income elderly folk go to the "county seat" or whatever special place that's 30 miles out of their way when they can barely walk to their own mailbox. Offer it online, send it to the voter via mail. These people have ALREADY taken all the required steps to vote, now you're changing the rules, you take responsibility to make the adjustments for your rule changes |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by raydawg on 02/19/18 at 12:41:30 Hi Web ;) I think playing to the lowest form of reasoning of why we can’t, is a false argument, or paper lion. The number of folks who might be inconvenienced by tightening our elections security is like saying we need high magazine rifles to fight tyranny, a very small consideration in scope of the bigger picture. I am presently setting up all I need to do for my retirement. It’s quick, efficient, and secure. This technology and how to implement it is already known and available to our government, as I have experienced it firsthand. Of course some will need additional consideration in order to participate, provide that small number a solution instead of doing nothing and blaming your lost on unmitigated factors that might not be proven. Look, the investigation revealed social media shenanigans, but made no mention of hacking anyone’s computers, why? Voting like almost every other political issue has leaked into our social fabric, and these swamp creatures are using it to their own discretion. Sit back, observe the flip/flopping on arguments. The hypocrisy. It’s sadly funny, and very revealing. Dupes, lemmings, and sheep, uttering stuff they don’t even know if it’s true or false. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by WebsterMark on 02/19/18 at 12:52:06 Maybe you're right ray, maybe I'm back. I found that while away a few months,other than the network news and my local paper, I rarely run into the leftist I find on here. Rarely, and I travel the country regularly. Where are you leftist? Where to you work, where do you hang out? I'm beginning to this the real Russian bots are...... Bot. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by FormerlyLostArtist on 02/19/18 at 13:13:33 556760717667704F637069020 wrote:
we aren't as "left" as you think, and you are probably always around like minded individuals like yourself so you're in the echo chamber and those kinds of environments often send signals to those of the opposing view to just stay quiet . and I'm a hermit, I don't hang out anywhere |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by WebsterMark on 02/19/18 at 13:55:09 I never see leftist on here staying quiet, I never see that on the news, I never see that on twitter, I never see that anywhere but in the real world. the people I deal with, are vocal and right of center but the default entertainment, media position is left of center. Where are the 65 million from the last election? Are they all in inner cities with a few leftist in schools and here and there? Where are you guys.... |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by Serowbot on 02/19/18 at 13:58:57 I have a voter ID card... AZ updates the roles every couple of years... They send me a note or e-mail asking that I verify the address. Done... It works, and it's already being done. Also,.. here, you can vote by mail, and that leaves a paper trail. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by raydawg on 02/19/18 at 14:23:58 Web, labeling is part of the narrative, I believe, of those who desire to separate and conquer. It absolves them of having to defend their accusations, as it carries the negative connotations it’s meant to evoke. It’s lazy, disengenous, and a disservice. Think of it this way, I can call a person an extreme conservative, and folks who are looking to dissuade a person have a built in list of charges they are guilty of by association. Now if I use Muslim terrorist , to label a ISIS member, it has the effect of saying Muslim are terrorist. Of course folks who do this, justify it, and my POV is lame. I think you will always find folks have more in common than that which separate us. Opportunist just take advantage of it to promote themselves. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by FormerlyLostArtist on 02/19/18 at 14:34:55 6C7F677A7F69791E0 wrote:
+1 also, since the left is in the media, the right have all those chances to respond to those leftist things without actually responding to someone face to face. so you can see the right responding to faceless media types all the time, and after hearing some of the most disgusting disturbing responses, those of us who are center left, just say, nah, nevermind. also, a lot of the left are very very very casually political, not really deep involved and ingrained in them to pick every political fight, they just do their job, love their family and go on, but when it comes time to vote, because of how the right often portray themselves or are portrayed in the media, the left often seems like a "nicer" option, notice I put nice in quotes because that's a very subjective word and I'm sure you're going to go off about how abortion isn't nice and how stealing people's money through taxes isnt' nice and antifa and and and blah blah blah... but look at how you all rail against those things, there just doesn't seem to be much compassion on the right, the compassionate conservative died with George W. Bush. YOU KILLED HIM, not us on the left. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by WebsterMark on 02/19/18 at 14:43:35 I think I could type the same and exchange left for right..... My view is the leftist are the dangerous ones in the world... And I call BS on the labeling thing. Nothing wrong with labeling a group as a whole in some cases, if not the majority of cases. Did not Jesus call the Pharisees a 'brood of vipers' despite the fact there was at least one among them who wasn't? Now if I use Muslim terrorist , to label a ISIS member, it has the effect of saying Muslim are terrorist. No it doesn't. It correctly identifies ISIS members are Muslims, but not all Muslims are ISIS or terrorist. Any reasonable person understands this. Trump understands that. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by raydawg on 02/19/18 at 14:54:02 132126373021360925362F440 wrote:
Can Trump talk about the tragedy in Florida without having to say “gun violence”? |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by FormerlyLostArtist on 02/19/18 at 14:54:59 172522333425320D21322B400 wrote:
and this is the language issue... Conservative and liberals seem to have completely separate context for defining language in their own views. also, you completely miss-identify leftists--- you seem to use that word in place of authoritarian, or dictatorship or that kind of idea. and that kind of idea exists on the right as well, just look at Trump and his authoritarian tendencies. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by WebsterMark on 02/19/18 at 14:55:49 Can Trump talk about the tragedy in Florida without having to say “gun violence”? I'm not following you. Plus, I didn't hear what he said, I was busy. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by WebsterMark on 02/19/18 at 15:04:37 3523342931242932460 wrote:
I think my bigger point here is we're going to go through a process in which Twitter, Facebook etc... make all these changes to their programs because the Russians ran ads on social media sites. Maybe it would have just been easier for the Russians to fly people to the US and have them vote with no ID.... they were spending a million dollars a month. That buys a lot of airline tickets! Better yet, fly them to Mexico and let them walk across the border, stay in Sanctuary Cities, get Trump elected, live here until the midterms, and guarantee he keeps house and senate. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by verslagen1 on 02/19/18 at 15:29:09 4B58405D584E5E390 wrote:
I disagree, no it doesn't. When you say muslim terrorist, you identify their motivations and targets. Same as the labels conservative and liberal. You bring to mind a stereotype that assumes certain interests and qualities. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by FormerlyLostArtist on 02/19/18 at 15:35:59 5D4E5958474A4C4E451A2B0 wrote:
I disagree, no it doesn't. When you say muslim terrorist, you identify their motivations and targets. Same as the labels conservative and liberal. You bring to mind a stereotype that assumes certain interests and qualities.[/quote] so, let me see if I have this straight, cause I sure hope I don't, when you say Muslim terrorist, you identify their motivations and targets is their motivation because they are Muslim? or are their targets Muslim? I would assume their motivation is terrorism: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims., but that definition makes it sound like terrorism is more of a tactic, not a motivation. So you are kind of saying that the motivation is their religion... which is condemning a whole religion based on the tactics used by an extremely small isolated percentage of that religion... saying ISIS terrorist is a much more precise and more correct description of the problem, or maybe Middle Eastern terrorist since not all Muslims live in the middle east. but if you like the simplification of stereotypes ... I hope you never learn how complicated and nuanced the world really is. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by MnSpring on 02/19/18 at 16:16:56 Hear Lota talk about the, ‘Russians’ did this, and that, and are responsible for doing … . Would that not be, ‘Racist’ against, Russians ? Just as the, Blind in one Eye, hard to see out of the other, ‘ SNOWFLAKE’, Kum-By-You Singing, Ultra-Progressive, ANTIFA Ideals Supporting, Fairy Dust Sprinkling, stand in the Street and CRYers. Have stood up, and YELLED/SCREAMED, about, a person, saying, ‘Muslim’ ??????? Wait, Wait, That’s OK, After all, Bama/B.Clinton, said some of the SAME, things as Trump has said. And it was, Great, THEN ! But now, Person that said it, has small hands. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by T And T Garage on 02/20/18 at 06:11:22 664F524D45524C596C4F5354615254495354200 wrote:
I'm fine with both, but if you are going to do the ID, the government needs to pay for it or at least have it able to be done at the polls, since people are going to vote there anyway. Don't make poor, fixed income elderly folk go to the "county seat" or whatever special place that's 30 miles out of their way when they can barely walk to their own mailbox. Offer it online, send it to the voter via mail. These people have ALREADY taken all the required steps to vote, now you're changing the rules, you take responsibility to make the adjustments for your rule changes[/quote] Well put Lost. You make way too much sense. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by T And T Garage on 02/20/18 at 06:16:40 724047565140576844574E250 wrote:
Gee, when I ride the train, go to a sporting even, walk down the street - I don't see all these conservatives that supposedly are everywhere... Why is that? See how dumb that sounds? Tell me web - did you see that "little" women's march in February? Have you seen our president's approval ratings lately? Yeah, all the "supposed" opposition probably doesn't exist.... ;D |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by T And T Garage on 02/20/18 at 06:23:17 5B48504D485E4E290 wrote:
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by WebsterMark on 02/20/18 at 07:00:54 Christian terrorist are far and few between while Muslim terrorist are unfortunately, fairly common. A Muslim who burns down his house to collect arson insurance is not a terrorist, he's a criminal. A Muslim who kills a man during a robbery is not a terrorist, he's a murderer. Similarly, a man who robs a store and shoots the clerk and he happens to go to a typical mainline denominational church is not a Christian terrorist. He is however a murderer. The guy who killed that abortion doctor is a Christian terrorist. The guy in Norway who killed those kids on the island is a Christian terrorist. A terrorist has a very specific definition and it does not include the severity of the crime, the number of victims etc... The Las Vegas hotel shooter was not a terrorist for example. Tim McVey could be labeled a terrorist since he's attack had a political motive behind it, but it wasn't Christianity. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by raydawg on 02/20/18 at 08:21:59 Web, the point I am trying to make is when folks try and use emotions, as a means of convincing folks, it speaks to the lowest element of intelligence. Marketing and advertising are great examples and studies into how you hook a person quickly, with key phrases or claims.... Once that avenue is open, you can drive home your real intentions. It’s no different that folks will gravitate toward their first impression. To change that you will now need to convince them to remove it, before you can install even the truth.... Folks are stubborn, because this involved emotions, and that is perceived as personal. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by T And T Garage on 02/20/18 at 08:23:13 704245545342556A46554C270 wrote:
But he was brought up Christian. He believed in Jesus. Therefore, he's a Christian terrorist - using your criteria on Muslims, it fits. You think these morons in isis are Muslim just because they say they are??? They kill more Muslims than non.... how is that Muslim?? The problem is, it's easy to blame a religion, a skin color, an income level rather than face up to what terrorism really is. The Muslim ban didn't save anyone in that school. The Muslim ban didn't stop the Las Vegas shooter. The Muslim ban does one thing only - appeases the racists. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by MnSpring on 02/20/18 at 09:43:14 It was said: "...Christian terrorist are far and few between while Muslim terrorist are unfortunately, fairly common. ..." Then replied: 726C63626F726974060 wrote:
Now I ask, (as been said, many times) "Prove It" Your research? The Web Sites that stated, factual, statics ? |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/20/18 at 09:46:38 Just because people oppose Trump doesn't make them right. He won. And his harshest critics are benefiting. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by WebsterMark on 02/20/18 at 09:54:30 6E7D65787D6B7B1C0 wrote:
As a sales and marketing guy I know 99% of decisions are made emotionally first and 'facts' are used to justify afterwards. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by WebsterMark on 02/20/18 at 10:06:11 The guy who killed that abortion doctor is a Christian terrorist. The guy in Norway who killed those kids on the island is a Christian terrorist. So why not call those Christian terrorists what they are? "The guy who killed that abortion doctor is a Christian terrorist. The guy in Norway who killed those kids on the island is a Christian terrorist. " I think I just did, didn't I?.... He's not???? Ok..... So that wasn't domestic terrorism... got it.. No, he wasn't. The last theory I read was his brother was being implicated in a child porno ring and he might have been involved. That doesn't seem a logical reason to us to shoot up a bunch of strangers but he clearly wasn't acting logically. At this point, no one knows his motive. If something comes out later that this was some type of anti-government motivation, then label him a domestic terrorist. if it comes out he wrote a letter saying "in the name of Jesus Christ, I kill these people....." then he's a Christian terrorist. McVey is a classic example of a domestic terrorist. But he was brought up Christian. He believed in Jesus. Therefore, he's a Christian terrorist - using your criteria on Muslims, Again, I believe I just said the opposite. I said a Muslim who kills for money is not a terrorist, he's a criminal. I did just type that didn't I, I'm not imagining things am I. I'm sure that's what I typed.... And McVey was an atheist wasn't he? Wasn't one of his last statements the "I'm the Captain of my Soul" poem....? Besides, his attack wasn't to advance some religious cause or damage some other religion. Point is, criminal behavior and terrorist behavior are two different things. It's like the difference between hate crimes and non-hate crimes. For example, in Chicago the other day, a few in the crowd chanted 'basketball' to the black hockey player. That term means nothing to me, but it does to a black hockey player. That word went from meaning one thing to meaning something entirely different. Today in Chicago there is probably going to be at least one murder. Is that a terrorist act or a criminal act? |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by raydawg on 02/20/18 at 10:26:11 6C5E59484F5E49765A49503B0 wrote:
As a sales and marketing guy I know 99% of decisions are made emotionally first and 'facts' are used to justify afterwards. [/quote] Your last paragraph, I agree, and it’s backwards, ain’t it...... Folks spend so much time trying to justify what they want to believe, as to what is reality. I will use the debt ceiling as example. Obama was against extending it as a senator, when Bush was for it. When he was president, he was now for it, abandoning all his previous arguments, and those conservatives, who were for it under Bush, now speak the same argument senator Obama offered. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by WebsterMark on 02/20/18 at 10:33:37 Nope, its right. You make emotional decisions and justify them afterwards with selected facts. Folks already know what they believe, they look for evidence that supports it. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by T And T Garage on 02/20/18 at 11:43:50 360403121504132C00130A610 wrote:
I can't speak to that. But since you call out Chicago, in St. Louis, you're more likely to get shot, so maybe you should ask yourself that question.... A any rate, to your credit, terrorism is defined as: The unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. I get that. But the overall point I make is that if you label an attack that is inspired by isis as "Muslim terrorism", then you must do the same for any Christian raised, domestic terrorist. Yeah, I get it - "you did" in the statement previous - but that is the first time on this board I've ever seen it. We need to see that more in ALL media. The conservatives need to realize how it feels... |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by raydawg on 02/20/18 at 11:46:41 Emotions are misleading, that is the point. Often driven by a need, greed, fear, etc.... Should I vote for so n so, as they are talking issues that concern me, or do I listen to party fear mongering and vote herd mentality? One is based on looking at, and discerning which candidate serves your best purpose..... The other is to forfeit your own thinking to that of another based on assumed fear. This last election sort of how this practice gave us a choice of the lessor of two fears. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by T And T Garage on 02/20/18 at 11:57:56 61726A77726474130 wrote:
You think that our current president is the "lessor of the two fears"? Do you really??? SMH.... |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/20/18 at 12:17:53 As IF we would be seeing the economy roaring back with Hillary at the helm. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by FormerlyLostArtist on 02/20/18 at 14:03:39 0A151314090E3F0F3F07151952600 wrote:
we would, Obama made it stable, Trump is overheating it |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by raydawg on 02/20/18 at 14:12:44 Thanks, perfect example of taking what you want out of what I said, and driving it with your own narrative.....which is the same as opinion, or belief. Many folks said the election was a choice of what they thought was the lessor of two evil, I ever said which, nor did they. You could say they might have greatly desired another viable choice, which of whom might have won if the two party system and its accomplice would allow such choices to voters. Not a one of you know, as fact, what the market would be at, or why it’s at its present level, if you did, you would be selling such insight.... You are here just blowing your own horns, yet... you get pizzed when the other guy blows his. Anybody want to step up And really raise the game, I’ll play, but until then it’s really a waste of time. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by T And T Garage on 02/20/18 at 14:18:20 7B68706D687E6E090 wrote:
I'm like two steps up right now ray - you still have some unanswered questions. I'm still waiting... |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by WebsterMark on 02/20/18 at 15:54:22 Trump was physically more impressive than the other candidates. He had an aura of authority. (thats why he was able to push past those other men in that group photo during his first European trip. Remember? They could "smell" who the alpha was) He mentioned the Wall idea and that appealed to the idea he'll keep the country safe. He wasn't afraid of anybody, he picked fights with the press who were used to being the final arbitrator and people loved that. As we say in sales, he looked and spoke "past the sale" and it was easy to see him as President. Hilary looks like a b!tch and weak. Bernie looks like a crazy old man, a weird college professor. If Trump were a liberal and took every Democratic position, all the lefties on here would have flocked to him and give him pass after pass on his behavior. The truth is, once you reach a certain point in an evaluation process and you have multiple candidates who all display minimum qualifications, the rest is emotional. Replace the word candidate with motorcycle, new car, new washer & dryer and thats how you buy stuff.....and that's how you vote. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by FormerlyLostArtist on 02/20/18 at 16:02:16 6B595E4F48594E715D4E573C0 wrote:
no, I'd still think he's and a$$hole and wouldn't have voted for him. you're just one of those jealous "alpha" males that wish you were Trump sad |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/20/18 at 16:41:17 I can't argue with you Mark. But, ya know, when he was a democrat, they loved him and took his money. He was a fine guy. While he was handing out cash. I never would have thought about what you said, but I'm not a salesman, at All. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by WebsterMark on 02/20/18 at 16:45:05 no, I'd still think he's and a$$hole and wouldn't have voted for him. you're just one of those jealous "alpha" males that wish you were Trump sad That was kinda unnecessary and harsh dude... I make a ridiculously good living off people like you think they’re the one out of a hundred...... |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by FormerlyLostArtist on 02/20/18 at 18:22:42 407275646372655A76657C170 wrote:
yeah, no you don't truth hurts huh? let me clarify I'm sure you make ridiculously good living off of people who think they are one out of a hundred, but that's not me. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by T And T Garage on 02/20/18 at 19:08:13 192B2C3D3A2B3C032F3C254E0 wrote:
Glad to know you voted for the guy that you thought was better looking, stronger and what... rich? Quality... LOL |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by T And T Garage on 02/20/18 at 19:08:50 4A637E61697E607540637F784D7E78657F780C0 wrote:
no, I'd still think he's and a$$hole and wouldn't have voted for him. you're just one of those jealous "alpha" males that wish you were Trump sad[/quote] +100 |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by WebsterMark on 02/21/18 at 04:50:08 Hey, keep telling yourself that. Spread the word. I want you both, I want all of you, to believe you're the outlier, the smart one, the unique one. The one who thinks everything through before making a careful, informed decision. You're the one not influenced by all the hidden signals that are directed at you day after day, hour after hour, minute after minute..... and if I were to cross your path in business for some reason, you'd study my product, my offerings and likely give me a purchase order thinking all the while you were the one who in charge, you studied and understood the product, the cost, the benefits...... but I know why you really paid me. And that's the way things work. Most of the time, that technique serves us very well. We're pretty good at perceiving frauds. And my product's not a fraud, its the best in my industry. But, you buy from me, from the perception I give you of my company ..........and you vote for a candidate in the same way. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by T And T Garage on 02/21/18 at 06:03:17 093B3C2D2A3B2C133F2C355E0 wrote:
See above - enjoy deluding yourself. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by WebsterMark on 02/21/18 at 06:15:04 Sure you do. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by T And T Garage on 02/21/18 at 06:23:17 615354454253447B57445D360 wrote:
Yes, I do. It's guys like you that serve guys like me. How about that? :) |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by WebsterMark on 02/21/18 at 07:28:34 Like I said, keep thinking that. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by T And T Garage on 02/21/18 at 08:37:13 6F5D5A4B4C5D4A75594A53380 wrote:
I will. Because it's true. Thanks for serving people like me. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by FormerlyLostArtist on 02/21/18 at 09:06:01 the problem you have, with me especially, I HATE sales people. so... think what you want about all your special abilities... i don't care also, I'm poor, so I don't buy sh!t, and have a complete different outlook on "quality" I'm constantly amazed by how much "quality" I can sacrifice and still totally enjoy many budget products. sure, that makes you better than me, whatever. i don't care. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by MnSpring on 02/21/18 at 10:18:20 716F60616C716A77050 wrote:
Just Love it, when someone that. They, are the, absolute, Easiest, to sell to. (And I KNOW, WM, knows the Same Thing) |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by WebsterMark on 02/21/18 at 10:26:13 You guys make this too easy sometimes..... TT, you’d be putty in my hands. You think you’re right all the time and the smartest one in the room. It would be like pushing a baby carriage around. But like I said, you guys just keep thinking what you’re thinking, that’s fine with me. I want, I need people to think like that. But you’re no different than anyone else. It’s the human condition, you can’t help that, none of us can. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by FormerlyLostArtist on 02/21/18 at 10:58:45 477572636475625D71627B100 wrote:
someone's delusional... and it ain't me |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by WebsterMark on 02/21/18 at 11:04:50 And that’s a sign you’re more easily swayed; a belief you’re psychologically better equipped to spot manipulation. |
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by T And T Garage on 02/21/18 at 11:08:04 675552434455427D51425B300 wrote:
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Title: Re: Which is it? Post by T And T Garage on 02/21/18 at 11:08:57 526067767160774864776E050 wrote:
"Hi Pot! Meet Kettle!" ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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