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Message started by WebsterMark on 08/22/18 at 05:56:06

Title: Spike the football
Post by WebsterMark on 08/22/18 at 05:56:06

Okay, so the left gets to spike the football today (perhaps on dirt covering the body of a 20 year old sacrificed to political correctness) but I'm having a hard time finding an article that lays out the charges. Some are campaign related and some, (like all of Manafords) are typical crook business.

Is it illegal to pay someone money to not tell a story or is this illegal only if it comes from campaign funds?

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by T And T Garage on 08/22/18 at 06:10:06

6A585F4E49584F705C4F563D0 wrote:

It's the campaign fund angle that could be - or will be - a major problem. But that might be small potatoes...

This first trial is just one step to see how deep our president and his businesses are in with russia. His own sons have said the only way they've been able to finance their resorts have been with russian investors.

Cohen and manafort are going to shed light on just how much influence russia and its oligarchs (read - mafia) had on trump and his businesses.

It's no coincidence that manafort was tight with russian oligarchs and then went to work on trump's campaign.

This, as they say, is the tip of the iceberg. Between cohen and manafort, things will be getting very ugly for our president. (couldn't happen to a nicer guy...)

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by WebsterMark on 08/22/18 at 06:10:45

Below is a partial transcript of an interview which raises good points. This is what I was thinking. It can't be illegal to pay someone to be quiet or to pay for a signed nondisclosure agreement. Ive been involved in that as a personal manager in the past. Agreeing to pay cash or other assets and in return the other party agrees to confidentially. If Trump paid to keep two women quiet he had an affair with, that can't be a crime can it?

A campaign expenditure under our federal campaign laws is an expenditure solely for campaign activity. A candidate who spends his own money or even corporate money for an event that occurred not as a result of the campaign, it is not a campaign expenditure.

Let me give a few examples to help people understand this, especially the American people. Let’s say, I wrote these down. Let’s say a candidate had said we owe vendors a whole lot of money. We’ve had disputes with them. But I want you to go ahead and pay them. I’m a candidate, I don’t want all this negative publicity.

So he says to his private lawyer, you pay them, I’ll reimburse you, get it done. Is that illegal? It’s perfectly legal.

Yet according to the prosecution of the Southern District of New York it’s paid at the direction of the candidate to influence the election. Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, how stupid is your point? It’s not a crime.

More, let’s say that this candidate settles a lawsuit that was initiated before he becomes a candidate. And he says to his personal lawyer, I want you to pay, settle that lawsuit. You can use my corporate funds, my private funds, whatever it is. That is perfectly legal, too.

The prosecutor would say, but that influenced the election. So what? There are certain things you do that influence an election that are legal and certain things you do to influence an election that are illegal.

Let’s say a candidate gets a non-disclosure agreement from a disgruntled employee, and he wants to quiet that disgruntled employee as he goes into the election. He pays the funds out of his pocket or through his corporation. Perfectly legal.

Nothing here was spent out of the campaign. Nothing was done with the campaign or to the campaign. This is exactly what the federal law is.

Donald Trump is in the clear. Let’s say Donald Trump even directed Michael Cohen to make payments in non-disclosure agreements. So what? He is allowed to do that.

Now, here’s my question. Has the Southern District of New York ever paid money in a non-disclosure agreement with any of its employees? How about any U.S. attorney’s office in the United States? How about the Department of Justice? How about any business?

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by WebsterMark on 08/22/18 at 07:02:40

This, as they say, is the tip of the iceberg.

Or ...... it's the whole iceberg and there's nothing else. If all we have is a lawyer caught stealing money elsewhere (nothing having to do with Trump) and pleading guilty to charges by a politically appointed prosecutor and not adjudicated by a judge or jury, all we have is a crook caught stealing and agreeing to be used as a pawn in a political war.

I'll wait to see more info, but from what I've read this morning, I see no crimes by Trump and if their were some, they're minor campaign violations which are technical in nature and not evidence of high crimes and misdemeanors.

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by Serowbot on 08/22/18 at 07:18:38

I can't decide whether the frog in the pot, or the digging your way out of a hole analogy is most appropriate here...
Time spent supporting this crook gets you hotter and/or deeper every day.
...but,... the time is coming...

Forget the two women he paid off... the big stuff is still coming.
Cohen's lawyer has announced Russian conspiracy testimony directly linking Trump to come.
This is bad... This is treason.

Spike...
...and not as happily as you might believe.
I have no love for Trump,... but this is an embarrassment to America.
Notice how informed Eau is in Queensland... the world is watching this debacle unfold... and they are ahead of us in understanding.

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by WebsterMark on 08/22/18 at 07:30:19

Notice how informed Eau is in Queensland
Be serious, EAU is a wacho with a near fatal case of TDS. He doesn't count.

Cohen's lawyer has announced Russian conspiracy testimony directly linking Trump to come.
This is bad... This is treason.

I'll wait to see what this actually is because I've heard nothing but promises. From what I see in these charges, there's nothing significant. Trump paid off women to be quiet. Not a crime. The prosecutor is trying to allege this is altering the course of an election or something like that. As was pointed out in the transcript above, that's no different than settling a dispute with a vendor.

But like I said, show me Trump committed treason against the US, I'll be the first to dump him, but that's a big charge. Looking for dirty info on Hilary is not treason. Making a deal with Putin that as President, he'd weaken the US defenses so we'd be forced to cede control of something or accept weaker terms and in return Trump would get access to building rights..... that's something that's treason. I'd watch the video of the execution for that.

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by T And T Garage on 08/22/18 at 08:11:03

546661707766714E627168030 wrote:

This, as they say, is the tip of the iceberg.

Or ...... it's the whole iceberg and there's nothing else. If all we have is a lawyer caught stealing money elsewhere (nothing having to do with Trump) and pleading guilty to charges by a politically appointed prosecutor and not adjudicated by a judge or jury, all we have is a crook caught stealing and agreeing to be used as a pawn in a political war.

I don't think so. When it comes down to it, this isn't about politics. This is about the shady business practices of our president and how he may be beholden to russian oligarchs - possibly tied directly to putin himself.

I'll wait to see more info, but from what I've read this morning, I see no crimes by Trump and if their were some, they're minor campaign violations which are technical in nature and not evidence of high crimes and misdemeanors.

Therein lies the nature of my iceberg comment. We shall see indeed.

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by WebsterMark on 08/22/18 at 08:18:15

I don't think so. When it comes down to it, this isn't about politics.

Virtually everything that happens in DC is politics. There is nothing patriotic in this investigation just as there was nothing patriotic with Clinton's impeachment.

All this is politics.

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by Serowbot on 08/22/18 at 08:21:24

You're weighing a BJ against treason... ;D

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by T And T Garage on 08/22/18 at 08:29:42

0C3E39282F3E29163A29305B0 wrote:

No, I'm afraid not. Our president may have broke the law, not just campaign finance rules. This goes much deeper. Possible money laundering, bank and tax fraud, along with colluding with a foreign government adds up.

Now, true, he's not even been charged with any of this. But the fact that this is what the Mueller investigation is looking into, says quite a lot.

Go ahead and say what you will about Obama. His policies, etc. But at no time was he ever even suspected of the treasonous acts of our current president.

As I've said all along, there's a lot more to the story than what's being reported (IMHO). trump's reputation precedes him - and not in a good way. He's a questionable businessman that went to foreign banks once the US banks closed their doors on him. That led to him going to the russians (that's not me saying it, that's his son's).

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by T And T Garage on 08/22/18 at 08:30:10

293F28352D38352E5A0 wrote:

You're weighing a BJ against treason... ;D

LOL - you beat me to the punch Sero!

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by Serowbot on 08/22/18 at 08:40:10

It is already clear and proven that Trump Jr was excited to meet with Russian spies to get dirt on Hillary,.. and Trump participated on a deceiving statement given to investigators...
That alone is at least treading the waters of treason...
..and much more is coming... Mueller isn't twiddling his thumbs...

Clinton was investigated for Whitewater and 4 years later was nailed for a BJ...
Mueller got info on porno/playboy payoffs and passed it along to NY prosecutors... he's investigating collusion with an enemy state, and he's going to be distracted by dalliances...

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by WebsterMark on 08/22/18 at 09:19:42

You're weighing a BJ against treason

No, I'm weighing it against a (pardon the pun) trumped-up allegation from hyper-partisans with no supporting evidence against treason.

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by WebsterMark on 08/22/18 at 09:21:16

Clinton was investigated for Whitewater and 4 years later was nailed for a BJ...

That's a little bit of revisionist history or in actual time this is what we call fake news. he was nailed for perjury.

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by WebsterMark on 08/22/18 at 09:22:32

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by T And T Garage on 08/22/18 at 09:57:08

675552434455427D51425B300 wrote:

No, not fake news at all. To be clear, the whitewater investigation did go on for about 4 years and revealed nothing incriminating (it should be noted that the 'trumped up" controversy surrounding the deal was being spun even before Clinton ran for president).

Looking back a the "scandal" of Whitewater, it's really nothing compared to what trumps been doing...

The perjury was about Monica, nothing more.

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by T And T Garage on 08/22/18 at 09:59:46

7D4F48595E4F58674B58412A0 wrote:

Why do you say that? Can you plausibly deny that trump has had massive dealings with russian oligarchs? Is it not plausible that he knew, and in fact encouraged, his son to get dirt on hillary from the russians?

That's no choo choo - that's a freight train headed for the White House.

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by WebsterMark on 08/22/18 at 10:09:57

An international businessman with a construction empire having dealings with Russia isn't a surprise. It might be a surprise if he didn't. I'm sure that's why he won't release his taxes, to maintain the identity of his business associates.

Is it illegal or treasonous to get dirt on your opponent? If NBC news had gotten dirt on Trump from a Russian, what would that be called?

Both our sides have a little bit of a blind spot going on here. But I would say you loathe Trump far more than I support trump so you're blind spot is a mile wide. everything you see is evidence of something that may or may not be there. Frankly, you're not much different then a 911 conspiracy theorists. You see free fall when there isn't any. You see coordinated explosions where they don't exist.

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by WebsterMark on 08/22/18 at 10:14:48

after reading up on this this morning, probably way more than I should since I need to be doing some work, here's my early prediction on how this all plays out.

if the lawyer had positive, absolute refutable proof of illegal collusion with the Russian government, he would've gotten a much better deal. As it is he's pleading guilty to offenses that are going to land him in prison or at the very least a steep fine. so I don't think he has any proof like that. However as I said before this is all political, so proof isn't necessarily what they're looking for. when Mueller's final report comes out there will not be enough for any type of legal proceedings against Trump. Their will also not be enough darning evidence that would cause enough Republicans to seek impeachment. There will however be enough to create a major problem if the Democrats win the house and senate. That is the final goal.

Now let's wait and see how accurate that prediction is.

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by T And T Garage on 08/22/18 at 10:44:44

467473626574635C70637A110 wrote:

An international businessman with a construction empire having dealings with Russia isn't a surprise. It might be a surprise if he didn't. I'm sure that's why he won't release his taxes, to maintain the identity of his business associates.

That's a conflicting statement. If it's above board, there should be no reason to hide his taxes. The only reason to hide your business associates would be if they were less than desirable. If trump's taxes show that he's in deep with russia - that presents a conflict of interest in a US president. I personally think that's what he's hiding. And let's be real - for better or worse, trump will never have to worry about protecting his business interests. Just like any other president, he'll make millions after office.

As to doing business multi-nationally - I agree. But one caveat - russia is not your "normal" multinational go to. Their oligarchs are mostly tied to putin and the russian mafia. Why not Europe? Makes you wonder...

Is it illegal or treasonous to get dirt on your opponent? If NBC news had gotten dirt on Trump from a Russian, what would that be called?

To work with a foreign power to exclusively obtain information on your opponent in an election that you're in - that's treasonous. If you're NBC, you're not in the running for president. Not the same thing.

Both our sides have a little bit of a blind spot going on here. But I would say you loathe Trump far more than I support trump so you're blind spot is a mile wide.

Whether or not I hate him does not excuse the facts. It's a fact that he's dealt with russia on numerous finance deals. It's a fact that he's lied more than once about the trump tower meeting with his son and russian nationals. It's a fact that he has attempted to obstruct justice by firing Comey (he admitted it on national television).

Guilty is guilty. But to be clear - I do indeed despise the man. From his pu$$y grabbing, to his name calling, to his mocking of a disabled man, to his inciting violence at his rallies, to his rallies in general, to his multiple divorces and affairs, to his disrespect for a Gold Star family, to his unending tweets, to his unbelievable vacation time thus far, to his lack of respect for anyone or anything - well it's a big list. He's earned it.

everything you see is evidence of something that may or may not be there. Frankly, you're not much different then a 911 conspiracy theorists. You see free fall when there isn't any. You see coordinated explosions where they don't exist.

I think you're wrong in that. trump has had every opportunity to clear his name. He's been given time to prove himself. He's done nothing to help his case. He could release his taxes and show that everything is above board but he refuses. He could curb his tweets but he refuses. He could stop commenting on the Mueller investigation but he refuses. He could mandate that his maga gear be made in the USA but he refuses.

He's childish, impish. It bears repeating - he is not fit for the office of President of the United States.

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by WebsterMark on 08/22/18 at 11:46:04

That's a conflicting statement. If it's above board, there should be no reason to hide his taxes. That's naïve. Every detail will be picked apart and imaginary connect the dots played out for months.

But one caveat - russia is not your "normal" multinational go to. My company has significant interest in Russia.

To work with a foreign power to exclusively obtain information on your opponent in an election that you're in - that's treasonous.
I don't think so.

to his mocking of a disabled man, As has been proven before, that's not what happened. That's like saying he called that woman a dog was racist. he's called dozens of people dogs and he made those same motions dozens of times talking about others. Does that make it right? No, but I don't think he was mocking the man's disability.

to his disrespect for a Gold Star family That man purposely jumped into a fight and expected his status to protect him. Sorry, but you lose immunity when you do that.

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by T And T Garage on 08/22/18 at 12:12:20

0D3F38292E3F28173B28315A0 wrote:

That's a conflicting statement. If it's above board, there should be no reason to hide his taxes. That's naïve. Every detail will be picked apart and imaginary connect the dots played out for months.

As I've said before. The truth is the truth. If he's beholden to the russians, there's no hiding it. If he's not, then his taxes will show it.

But one caveat - russia is not your "normal" multinational go to. My company has significant interest in Russia.

As a financial backer? I'd have to call you on that. As an emerging market or offshoring, perhaps.

To work with a foreign power to exclusively obtain information on your opponent in an election that you're in - that's treasonous.
I don't think so.

The rule of law says otherwise. But you're free to think what you will.

to his mocking of a disabled man, As has been proven before, that's not what happened.

I saw the speech - everyone did. You can go ahead and say "he does that to everyone" but that doesn't excuse it. Number one, it's childish. Number two, if that is indeed "what he does", what does that say about the man? He wouldn't think twice because the man was disabled? Pretty much the worst judgement on the planet.

That's like saying he called that woman a dog was racist. he's called dozens of people dogs and he made those same motions dozens of times talking about others. Does that make it right? No, but I don't think he was mocking the man's disability.

I think most people took it as mocking a disabled man.

to his disrespect for a Gold Star family That man purposely jumped into a fight and expected his status to protect him. Sorry, but you lose immunity when you do that.

Again, it goes to the situation. trump didn't have to say anything, certainly not what he did - but he's so thin-skinned and self-centered that he couldn't resist. It seems he must feed is ego to the point where he doesn't seem to care what it costs.

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by WebsterMark on 08/22/18 at 13:16:31

Time will tell what happens. I can't get past the question if Cohen has collusion evidence, where is his get out of jail free card? If he had implicating evidence, they would have given him the moon. Same for Mannaford.

I don't think Cohen has such evidence. He stole money elsewhere and they found out about that while looking for dirt on Trump. So they put the squeeze on Cohen and the best they got was the info on the payments to the women. He agreed to plea guilty on the legit charges for theft. The prosecutor significantly expanded the definition for election fraud and charged him with those. He's pleading guilty to those knowing there'll be no time added to whatever sentence he's going to get for the theft so those other charges are purely for political purposes.

Regardless, it's been a fairly polite exchange today between all parties which deserves to be pointed out.

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by T And T Garage on 08/22/18 at 13:54:23

192B2C3D3A2B3C032F3C254E0 wrote:

Time will tell what happens. I can't get past the question if Cohen has collusion evidence, where is his get out of jail free card? If he had implicating evidence, they would have given him the moon. Same for Mannaford.

Remember - they haven't been sentenced yet. Plus, manafort still has other charges he's up against.

I don't think Cohen has such evidence. He stole money elsewhere and they found out about that while looking for dirt on Trump. So they put the squeeze on Cohen and the best they got was the info on the payments to the women. He agreed to plea guilty on the legit charges for theft. The prosecutor significantly expanded the definition for election fraud and charged him with those. He's pleading guilty to those knowing there'll be no time added to whatever sentence he's going to get for the theft so those other charges are purely for political purposes.

Regardless, it's been a fairly polite exchange today between all parties which deserves to be pointed out.

True.

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by Serowbot on 08/22/18 at 14:23:54

We know about the payoffs,... because those charges were passed on to NY prosecutors.
Any evidence that Cohen turned up about Russian collusion is the domain of the Mueller investigation...
You and I know almost nothing about that.

Mueller does...
The fact that Cohen has opened up,... reveals that there is definitely something to expose...
Something worth trading...
Something that can be proven in a court of law...

It is an unknown known... ;D
Thanks Rummy... ;D

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by WebsterMark on 08/22/18 at 14:36:56

Mueller does...
The fact that Cohen has opened up,... reveals that there is definitely something to expose...
Something worth trading...
Something that can be proven in a court of law...

Then why didn't he trade? Why is he pleading guilty to anything?

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by Serowbot on 08/22/18 at 14:44:28

Limited options... ;D
Why should they give away the house?...
Cohen ain't running the show, he's just trying not to have the house fall on him.

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by WebsterMark on 08/23/18 at 05:32:52

Exactly what I was thinking.

"An overzealous prosecutor could, of course, stretch the words of the accordion-like statute to target a political enemy, or read it more narrowly to favor a political friend. If the same morass of laws were being applied to a President Hillary Clinton, civil libertarians would be up in arms about their ambiguity and lack of clarity.

As a civil libertarian who voted and campaigned for, and contributed to, Hillary Clinton, I am critical as well of efforts to stretch these laws so as to target a president against whom I voted. The guilty plea of Michael Cohen, coupled with the conviction of Paul Manafort, do not make President Trump look good politically. He promised the American people to surround himself with the best advisers but he surrounded himself with too many people who broke the law, even if he himself was not legally complicit. But the rule of law demands that we distinguish between political sins and federal felonies. As the record now stands, Donald Trump appears to be guilty of political sins, but not federal felonies or impeachable offenses.

You wouldn’t know that if you just watched those cable-television stations that are determined to find crimes and impeachable offenses against President Trump without regard to the law, the facts or consideration of civil liberties. If one applies a single standard without regard to politics, what I call “the shoe on the other foot test,” there are still large gaps between Michael Cohen’s plea of guilty, on the one hand, and crimes or impeachable offenses against Donald Trump on the other. Until and unless those gaps are filled with credible evidence of criminal behavior by the president, his enemies should be cautious about tolling the death knell for this presidency."

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by Serowbot on 08/23/18 at 08:16:43

0C3E39282F3E29163A29305B0 wrote:

...there are still large gaps between Michael Cohen’s plea of guilty, on the one hand, and crimes or impeachable offenses against Donald Trump on the other. Until and unless those gaps are filled with credible evidence of criminal behavior by the president, his enemies should be cautious about tolling the death knell for this presidency."

Prosecutors have 3 million pieces of evidence beyond Cohen's word.
Corroborating Cohen's claims with documentation.

I believe them... over a guy that has lied more than 4,000 times in the last year and a half...

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by WebsterMark on 08/23/18 at 08:37:48

Lie is a word who's definition has been significantly expanded when it comes to Trump. Did Obama lie when he said if you like your plan you can keep it? Did Hilary lie about her emails? So are they liars? I could pick any speech from Obama or Hilary and find 'lies' if I use the NY Times definition of lie as it relates to Trump. Granted, Trump gives the opposition a lot more material to look through, I'll give you that.

But I still think this is not a solid case at all. It's not a crime to pay money to someone to not tell a story or to settle a dispute. That is not a campaign violation in and of itself. Maybe if campaign funds were used, but I don't know that part of the law. The fact it was over an affair isn't relevant from the legal point of view.

He pleaded guilty to charges the prosecutor brought against him based on that prosecutor's interpretation of the law. I've read plenty of comments from other prosecutors who say that's not a correct interpretation. Again, I think Cohen pleaded guilty to the theft charges and these 'charges' and got the best deal he was going to get. I just think if he had absolute Trump colluded evidence, he could have asked for a house on Hawaii and they would have given it to him.

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by Serowbot on 08/23/18 at 09:09:50

Birtherism,.. was a lie that Trump propagated for years... years after proven false,... and years after Trump himself admitted it was false...

...and,... it was racist...
Seriously tell me that claim would be made against a white president.
(besides McCain, which was on a coattail )

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by WebsterMark on 08/23/18 at 09:47:25

Dan Rather/George Bush Vietnam war forged documents.

Now imagine Bill O'Reilly made the same claims against Barack Obama using the same faked evidence. Practically by definition, what you're saying is, that would be racist.

How is it every Democrats opposition to Clarence Thomas's Supreme Court nomination was based on policy but every Republican's objection to Sotomayer was bigoted?

All the jokes make by Democrats and late night comedies over Ben Carson's sleepy looking eyes in the debates were accepted or funny but pointing out Shelia Lee's temper is the "angry balck woman" racist comment?

How does that work?

Title: Re: Spike the football
Post by WebsterMark on 08/23/18 at 16:52:36

083A3D2C2B3A2D123E2D345F0 wrote:

I'm bumping this caused I'd like to see what those suffering from TDS say.