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Message started by faffi on 09/03/18 at 01:00:22

Title: Douglas Murray
Post by faffi on 09/03/18 at 01:00:22

You can look him up if you are interested, he's on youtube and also widely discussed.

The reason I bring him up is because my brother and cousin see him as a man bringing forward the gospel of what's really happening in Europe. Islam and Muslims are the new evil (like the Jews were before and during WW2), and he use what he portrays as facts to support his views. He also use a very depicting language to play directly with people's emotion. Well dressed, well behaved with eloquent language skills, he portray a responsible, middle-aged white man with genuine concern for the future of Europe in particular and the world in general.

Another observation is that his disciples argue very much the same way as we do here regarding Trump - and that goes for both his supporters as well as us who see him as more or less a horror; both sides are equally convinced about their own correctness and cannot understand that anybody can be so stupid as to not grasp the obvious reality. The reality is somewhere in between the opposites, naturally.

Anyway, IMO Islam or Muslims are NOT the problem. Individuals who use the religion to control the population - usually illiterates - and create terrorists are. Going after groups and stigmatizing them instead of judging individuals is racism, nothing else. And there is nothing to suggest that Islamist will constitute even 10 % of the European population within the time span we can foresee, so the group will remain marginal. And the risk of being killed in a terrorist attack in Europe is next to zero. That doesn't mean we should not take terror in earnest, but that we also need to be realistic about it all.

This is worth reading IMO https://www.newstatesman.com/2018/07/strange-death-europe-douglas-murray-review

Title: Re: Douglas Murray
Post by WebsterMark on 09/03/18 at 04:37:07

I don't recall any Jews walking into a pizza joint and blowing themselves up to indiscriminately kill Germans.

And the risk of being killed in a terrorist attack in Europe is next to zero.
And the risk of you or a school child being killed by a crazy gunman is next to zero yet we're going to target the 99.999% of the 300+million guns in the US......

And you're just flat out wrong about the influence of Muslim immigrants in Europe. My company's HQ are in Stockholm. I've been working at this company for 8+ years now and have heard the people who work there describe the changes. But I guess those testimonies don't count. I guess crime stats don't count. I guess the fact many of those countries are changing the direction of their immigration laws don't count.... I am fortunate enough to travel to Europe for work every now and then, but not often enough of in the same places to make a judgement with my own eyes, but I do trust the people who've live there all their lives and I can tell you what they say. But you would call them future Nazi's I guess.....

Ignore it all you want and use this as yet another way to attack people who hold a slightly different point of view than you do. It's pathetic when people descend into the gutter by dragging another idiotic Nazi Germany WWII era reference into it. Seriously, what's wrong with people who do that??? There's Nazi German and not much else compares to that in today's world.

Title: Re: Douglas Murray
Post by faffi on 09/03/18 at 06:17:42

Sweden has issues, but it is not primarily with Muslims; it is with immigrants and refugees being crammed together in ghettos. In some parts of Gothenburg, Malmo and Stockholm, as much as 90 % are foreigners. This again has created an environment for violence and lack of respect for the law. But if you feel good at placing the blame primarily on one group, go ahead and do so. It doesn't make it any more correct.

Note that I am not religious and in fact consider religion to be more negative than positive for humanity. Meaning I am not trying to defend a religion here. Instead, I try to create some balance and give some facts that can allow people to stop stigmatizing and also stop being afraid of something that isn't real. That's why I brought up the Jews' situation during the WW2 period; they were blamed for everything that was wrong and the leaders did what they could to spread hatred among the public against the Jews. Now, we see right wing leaders using Muslims as a "common enemy" that must be kept at bay before they "take over the world". I say bollox. Not that there aren't bad Muslims - there are bad people everywhere in every group - but that the vast majority of them are decent people like you and me. And they should be treated as individuals, not as a group.

Title: Re: Douglas Murray
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/03/18 at 06:23:18

When a group calls everyone not in the group
Infidel
And believes they are right to rape or kill the infidel,
It might not be smart to import that group.

Title: Re: Douglas Murray
Post by faffi on 09/03/18 at 06:33:38

You are disillusioned. Are there environments where this happens? Yes. Do they in any way represent the majority of Muslims? No. Just like Catholic priest raping kids are not representative for the common Catholic.

Title: Re: Douglas Murray
Post by WebsterMark on 09/03/18 at 06:46:45

stop being afraid of something that isn't real

What if it is real? What if you're a later version of a some Jewish or Polish guy in the 1930's who said not to worry about this Socialist group..... you're make more out of it than there is....there are plenty of other bad people out there....

This is why the story of Chicken Little has stuck around for so long. 9 out of 10 things never come to pass, but when that 1 does hit..... you sure wish you had discerned real trouble from a passing fad.

I don't think the mass immigration, (some would say invasion) of Europe is a little thing. Name me a country that's 75% Islamic you'd like to live in? Where you'd feel safe? Free to type on a forum like this? Where you could sit out your porch, read any book you wanted and have a beer?

Title: Re: Douglas Murray
Post by Eegore on 09/03/18 at 10:08:08

If it weren't for Germans in WWII then a lot of people wouldn't have an argument for a lot of bad things. The good ol' Nazi card has been used for generations.

Title: Re: Douglas Murray
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/03/18 at 10:24:56

Adopt as many as you want.
Don't tell me how to choose what I want to import.
If you're happy in a few years, ill think about it.
How's that?
Right now, Europe is not looking like something I would recommend following in their footsteps.
You don't KNOW how it's going to work out. So why are you so sure it's Not stupid? It's a place to move slowly and cautiously. Just because you want to believe in the goodness of all does not mean that societies can just be slammed into each other.
You didn't hear about the sweet, naive couple who decided they were going to prove that Evil was just an imaginary thing..
They were stabbed to death, on their bicycle trip. They were overseas, in a dangerous place.. believing in the goodness..

Title: Re: Douglas Murray
Post by raydawg on 09/03/18 at 11:14:48

303730303F560 wrote:

Yeah..... only anybody who voted for Trump is guilty of what Hitler did ::)

Be consistent at the least, geez.

Title: Re: Douglas Murray
Post by faffi on 09/03/18 at 13:57:22

I was not trying to compare anyone to Hitler, I was comparing stigmatization of a group to try and make ordinary people stop thinking and get into a frenzy.

Also, I am NOT saying immigration doesn't come with challenges or is unproblematic. I am saying that blaming the Muslims for the troubles we are facing in some countries like Sweden is not the right answer; lack of proper integration is.

Yes, Muslims currently are behind most terror attacks in the world. However, those attacks primarily happen in Muslim regions, not in the West. And, most importantly, the terror groups are not in any way portraying the majority of Muslims, nor to they follow any order by their holy book; some crazy people are abusing the religion to manipulate and control a group of the population.

Here are some numbers that people may find interesting http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/08/09/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

Title: Re: Douglas Murray
Post by Eegore on 09/03/18 at 14:06:50

"Also, I am NOT saying immigration doesn't come with challenges or is unproblematic. I am saying that blaming the Muslims for the troubles we are facing in some countries like Sweden is not the right answer; lack of proper integration is. "

That's a good way to put it.

Remember though its easier, a lot easier to just blame an entire group than to examine the problem from multiple angles. Where I live if immigration was halted the agriculture would collapse, or the price of produce would by most estimates go up about 1300 percent. But immigrants are involved in crime so the question is what do we want more, cheaper and accessible food or less immigrant crime.

Title: Re: Douglas Murray
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/03/18 at 14:58:00

Not all immigrants are equal.

Title: Re: Douglas Murray
Post by WebsterMark on 09/03/18 at 15:34:36

6760676768010 wrote:

In this article, it cites a survey that says 9% of Muslims in Pakistan report a favorable viewpoint of groups like ISIS. Pakistan has population of about 200 million which means 18,000,000 people find blowing people up acceptable. Pakistan is one of those countries Trump wants to ban immigration. I'm ok with that.

Title: Re: Douglas Murray
Post by Eegore on 09/03/18 at 16:50:20

I wonder what the percentage is of Americans that think its ok to blow up Muslim Pakistanis. I bet at least 18 million are ok with it.

Title: Re: Douglas Murray
Post by WebsterMark on 09/03/18 at 18:26:18

So we’ve been strapping bombs to mentally disabled kids and sending them into restaurants have we?.....

Title: Re: Douglas Murray
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/03/18 at 18:43:49

E seems to be getting infected with the TT mentality.

Title: Re: Douglas Murray
Post by Eegore on 09/03/18 at 20:16:37

"So we’ve been strapping bombs to mentally disabled kids and sending them into restaurants have we?..... "

No.

I did not mean to convey that the US kills Muslim Pakistanis in the exact way that they kill others. We use different means, and I believe there are US citizens that are ok with killing Muslims in Pakistan.

Title: Re: Douglas Murray
Post by faffi on 09/03/18 at 23:11:51

624240485542270 wrote:

I did not mean to convey that the US kills Muslim Pakistanis in the exact way that they kill others. We use different means, and I believe there are US citizens that are ok with killing Muslims in Pakistan.

That is highly probable, based on past wars.

Title: Re: Douglas Murray
Post by T And T Garage on 09/04/18 at 05:57:40

091610170A0D3C0C3C04161A51630 wrote:

E seems to be getting infected with the TT mentality.

If you're referring to me jog, c'mon, get over it. Aren't you a little old to be so petty?