SuzukiSavage.com /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifeline. /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1544021018 Message started by WebsterMark on 12/05/18 at 06:43:38

Title: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifeline. Post by WebsterMark on 12/05/18 at 06:43:38 Contrary to media speculation that Robert Mueller is closing in on President Trump, the special prosecutor’s plea deal with Trump’s personal lawyer Michael Cohen offers further evidence that the Trump campaign did not collude with Russians during the 2016 election, according to congressional investigators and former prosecutors. Cohen pleaded guilty last week to making false statements in 2017 to the Senate intelligence committee about the Trump Organization’s failed efforts to build a Trump Tower in Moscow. Discussions about the so-called Moscow Project continued five months longer in 2016 than Cohen had initially stated under oath. The nine-page charging document filed with the plea deal suggests that the special counsel is using the Moscow tower talks to connect Trump to Russia. But congressional investigators with House and Senate committees leading inquiries on the Russia question told RealClearInvestigations that it looks like Mueller withheld from the court details that would exonerate the president. They made this assessment in light of the charging document, known as a statement of “criminal information” (filed in lieu of an indictment when a defendant agrees to plead guilty); a fuller accounting of Cohen’s emails and text messages that Capitol Hill sources have seen; and the still-secret transcripts of closed-door testimony provided by a business associate of Cohen. On page 7 of the statement of criminal information filed against Cohen, which is separate from but related to the plea agreement, Mueller mentions that Cohen tried to email Russian President Vladimir Putin’s office on Jan. 14, 2016, and again on Jan. 16, 2016. But Mueller, who personally signed the document, omitted the fact that Cohen did not have any direct points of contact at the Kremlin, and had resorted to sending the emails to a general press mailbox. Sources who have seen these additional emails point out that this omitted information undercuts the idea of a “back channel” and thus the special counsel's collusion case. Page 2 of the same criminal information document holds additional exculpatory evidence for Trump, sources say. It quotes an August 2017 letter from Cohen to the Senate intelligence committee in which he states that Trump “was never in contact with anyone about this [Moscow Project] proposal other than me.” This section of Cohen’s written testimony, unlike other parts, is not disputed as false by Mueller, which sources say means prosecutors have tested its veracity through corroborating sources and found it to be accurate. Also notable, Mueller did not challenge Cohen’s statement that he “ultimately determined that the proposal was not feasible and never agreed to make a trip to Russia.” “Though Cohen may have lied to Congress about the dates,” one Hill investigator said, “it's clear from personal messages he sent in 2015 and 2016 that the Trump Organization did not have formal lines of communication set up with Putin’s office or the Kremlin during the campaign. There was no secret ‘back channel.’” “So as far as collusion goes,” the source added, "the project is actually more exculpatory than incriminating for Trump and his campaign.” Mueller’s office declined comment to RealClearInvestigations. Cohen’s dealings with a go-between, New York real estate developer Felix Sater, bear some resemblance to the June 2016 Trump Tower meeting between Trump campaign officials and Russian figures – a meeting arranged by a British concert promoter. Both instances indicate that no one on the Trump side, including the candidate, enjoyed special access to the Russian government. Cohen’s emails and text messages indicate he failed to establish communications with the Russian leader’s spokesman, although he eventually was able to make contact with a desk secretary in the spokesman’s office In the end, neither Putin nor any Kremlin official was directly involved in the scuttled Moscow project, sources say. Moreover, neither Cohen nor Trump traveled to Moscow in support of the deal, as Sater had urged. No meetings with Russian government officials took place. It was Sater, a Russian immigrant with a checkered past, representing the Bayrock Group and not the Trump Organization, who came up with the tower project idea in 2015. His pitch had more to do with branding than real estate: Trump would lend his name to the tower project and share in the profits, but not actually build it or go into debt for it. But the project never went anywhere because Sater didn’t have the pull with Putin he claimed to have. Emails and texts indicate that Sater could only offer Cohen access to one of his acquaintances, who was an acquaintance of someone else who was partners in a real estate development with a friend of Putin’s. Talks broke off in June 2016. Trump publicly stated seven months later, just days before his inauguration, that his company has never had any real estate holdings in Russia. Nothing in Mueller’s latest filings disputes that assertion. Sources say Sater, whom Cohen described as a “salesman," testified to the House intelligence panel in late 2017 that his communications with Cohen about putting Trump and Putin on a stage for a "ribbon-cutting" for a Trump Tower in Moscow were “mere puffery” to try to promote the project and get it off the ground. Also according to his still-undisclosed testimony, Sater swore none of those communications involved taking any action to influence the 2016 presidential election. None of the emails and texts between Sater and Cohen mention Russian plans or efforts to hack Democrats’ campaign emails or influence the election. Tom Fitton, president of Judicial Watch, a government watchdog group, said the criminal-information statement of offense against Cohen reflects political bias. He said the special counsel appears more interested in trying to draw connections to Russia than highlighting exculpatory evidence. "Mueller seems desperate to confuse Americans by conflating the cancelled and legitimate Russia business venture with the Russia collusion theory he was actually hired to investigate,” Fitton said. “This is a transparent attempt to try to embarrass the president.” He added: "The plea deal is weak tea and I suspect, given Mueller’s track record, that there’s even less here than meets the eye." The actual texts of the plea deal and related materials filed last week in federal court do not jibe with reports and commentary given on several cable news outlets and comments of Democrat leaders. CNN said the charging documents, which reference the president as “Individual 1," suggest Trump had a working relationship with Russia’s president and that "Putin had leverage over Trump" because of the project. “Well into the 2016 campaign, one of the president’s closest associates was in touch with the Kremlin on this project, as we now know, and Michael Cohen says he was lying about it to protect the president,” said CNN anchor Wolf Blitzer. “Cohen was communicating directly with the Kremlin,” Blitzer added. CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin said the development was so “enormous” that Trump “might not finish his term.” At MSNBC, pundits maintained the court papers prove “Trump secretly interacted with Putin’s own office." “Now we have evidence that there was direct communication between the Trump Organization and Putin’s office on this. I mean, this is collusion,” said David Corn of Mother Jones, co-author of “Russian Roulette: The Inside Story of Putin’s War on America and the Election of Donald Trump.” Adam Schiff, the incoming Democratic chairman of the House intelligence committee, said Trump was dealing directly with Putin on real estate ventures, and Democrats will investigate whether Russians laundered money through the Trump Organization. But further dousing such speculation that the Cohen confession puts Trump in legal peril, former federal prosecutors said Mueller's filing does not remotely incriminate the president in purported Russia collusion. It doesn’t even imply he directed Cohen to lie to Congress. “It doesn’t implicate President Trump in any way,” said former independent counsel Solomon L. Wisenberg, now with Nelson Mullins LLP in Washington. “The reality is, this is a nothing-burger." Criminal attorney Alan Dershowitz agreed, arguing that Mueller is resorting to false-statement prosecutions in lieu of prosecutions related to his mandate of investigating the Trump campaign’s alleged participation in a Russian plot to interfere in the election — signaling he lacks the evidence to support such a criminal conspiracy. “We are seeing many of these cases being built around false statements,” Dershowitz pointed out, not the underlying crime that has been alleged by Democrats and the media. Though Mueller has now, in his 18-month probe, nabbed several Trump associates for process crimes, such as making false statements, and other felonies, such as tax fraud, no evidence has surfaced in any of the cases indicating that Trump colluded with Russia to steal the 2016 election. FBI agents raided Cohen’s office early this spring to seize evidence, and prosecutors have spent the last several months sifting through his emails, texts and phone and travel records, as well as audio recordings he allegedly made of conservations with Trump. Notably absent from the criminal-information document is any corroboration of the highly inflammatory, though oft-cited allegation made in the so-called Steele dossier, funded by the Clinton campaign, that Cohen visited Prague to clandestinely meet with Kremlin officials in August 2016 to arrange “deniable cash payments to hackers who had worked in Europe under Kremlin direction against the Clinton campaign.” Cohen has strenuously denied the allegation and offered his passport to show “I have never been to Prague in my life.”

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by Eegore on 12/05/18 at 06:47:03  Where did you get this information?

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by thumperclone on 12/05/18 at 07:04:02 0E3C3B2A2D3C2B14382B32590 wrote: Contrary to media speculation that Robert Mueller is closing in on President Trump, the special prosecutor’s plea deal with Trump’s personal lawyer Michael Cohen offers further evidence that the Trump campaign did not collude with Russians during the 2016 election, according to congressional investigators and former prosecutors. Cohen pleaded guilty last week to making false statements in 2017 to the Senate intelligence committee about the Trump Organization’s failed efforts to build a Trump Tower in Moscow. Discussions about the so-called Moscow Project continued five months longer in 2016 than Cohen had initially stated under oath. The nine-page charging document filed with the plea deal suggests that the special counsel is using the Moscow tower talks to connect Trump to Russia. But congressional investigators with House and Senate committees leading inquiries on the Russia question told RealClearInvestigations that it looks like Mueller withheld from the court details that would exonerate the president. They made this assessment in light of the charging document, known as a statement of “criminal information” (filed in lieu of an indictment when a defendant agrees to plead guilty); a fuller accounting of Cohen’s emails and text messages that Capitol Hill sources have seen; and the still-secret transcripts of closed-door testimony provided by a business associate of Cohen. On page 7 of the statement of criminal information filed against Cohen, which is separate from but related to the plea agreement, Mueller mentions that Cohen tried to email Russian President Vladimir Putin’s office on Jan. 14, 2016, and again on Jan. 16, 2016. But Mueller, who personally signed the document, omitted the fact that Cohen did not have any direct points of contact at the Kremlin, and had resorted to sending the emails to a general press mailbox. Sources who have seen these additional emails point out that this omitted information undercuts the idea of a “back channel” and thus the special counsel's collusion case. Page 2 of the same criminal information document holds additional exculpatory evidence for Trump, sources say. It quotes an August 2017 letter from Cohen to the Senate intelligence committee in which he states that Trump “was never in contact with anyone about this [Moscow Project] proposal other than me.” This section of Cohen’s written testimony, unlike other parts, is not disputed as false by Mueller, which sources say means prosecutors have tested its veracity through corroborating sources and found it to be accurate. Also notable, Mueller did not challenge Cohen’s statement that he “ultimately determined that the proposal was not feasible and never agreed to make a trip to Russia.” “Though Cohen may have lied to Congress about the dates,” one Hill investigator said, “it's clear from personal messages he sent in 2015 and 2016 that the Trump Organization did not have formal lines of communication set up with Putin’s office or the Kremlin during the campaign. There was no secret ‘back channel.’” “So as far as collusion goes,” the source added, "the project is actually more exculpatory than incriminating for Trump and his campaign.” Mueller’s office declined comment to RealClearInvestigations. Cohen’s dealings with a go-between, New York real estate developer Felix Sater, bear some resemblance to the June 2016 Trump Tower meeting between Trump campaign officials and Russian figures – a meeting arranged by a British concert promoter. Both instances indicate that no one on the Trump side, including the candidate, enjoyed special access to the Russian government. Cohen’s emails and text messages indicate he failed to establish communications with the Russian leader’s spokesman, although he eventually was able to make contact with a desk secretary in the spokesman’s office In the end, neither Putin nor any Kremlin official was directly involved in the scuttled Moscow project, sources say. Moreover, neither Cohen nor Trump traveled to Moscow in support of the deal, as Sater had urged. No meetings with Russian government officials took place. It was Sater, a Russian immigrant with a checkered past, representing the Bayrock Group and not the Trump Organization, who came up with the tower project idea in 2015. His pitch had more to do with branding than real estate: Trump would lend his name to the tower project and share in the profits, but not actually build it or go into debt for it. But the project never went anywhere because Sater didn’t have the pull with Putin he claimed to have. Emails and texts indicate that Sater could only offer Cohen access to one of his acquaintances, who was an acquaintance of someone else who was partners in a real estate development with a friend of Putin’s. Talks broke off in June 2016. Trump publicly stated seven months later, just days before his inauguration, that his company has never had any real estate holdings in Russia. Nothing in Mueller’s latest filings disputes that assertion. Sources say Sater, whom Cohen described as a “salesman," testified to the House intelligence panel in late 2017 that his communications with Cohen about putting Trump and Putin on a stage for a "ribbon-cutting" for a Trump Tower in Moscow were “mere puffery” to try to promote the project and get it off the ground. Also according to his still-undisclosed testimony, Sater swore none of those communications involved taking any action to influence the 2016 presidential election. None of the emails and texts between Sater and Cohen mention Russian plans or efforts to hack Democrats’ campaign emails or influence the election. Tom Fitton, president of Judicial Watch, a government watchdog group, said the criminal-information statement of offense against Cohen reflects political bias. He said the special counsel appears more interested in trying to draw connections to Russia than highlighting exculpatory evidence. "Mueller seems desperate to confuse Americans by conflating the cancelled and legitimate Russia business venture with the Russia collusion theory he was actually hired to investigate,” Fitton said. “This is a transparent attempt to try to embarrass the president.” He added: "The plea deal is weak tea and I suspect, given Mueller’s track record, that there’s even less here than meets the eye." The actual texts of the plea deal and related materials filed last week in federal court do not jibe with reports and commentary given on several cable news outlets and comments of Democrat leaders. CNN said the charging documents, which reference the president as “Individual 1," suggest Trump had a working relationship with Russia’s president and that "Putin had leverage over Trump" because of the project. “Well into the 2016 campaign, one of the president’s closest associates was in touch with the Kremlin on this project, as we now know, and Michael Cohen says he was lying about it to protect the president,” said CNN anchor Wolf Blitzer. “Cohen was communicating directly with the Kremlin,” Blitzer added. CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin said the development was so “enormous” that Trump “might not finish his term.” At MSNBC, pundits maintained the court papers prove “Trump secretly interacted with Putin’s own office." “Now we have evidence that there was direct communication between the Trump Organization and Putin’s office on this. I mean, this is collusion,” said David Corn of Mother Jones, co-author of “Russian Roulette: The Inside Story of Putin’s War on America and the Election of Donald Trump.” Adam Schiff, the incoming Democratic chairman of the House intelligence committee, said Trump was dealing directly with Putin on real estate ventures, and Democrats will investigate whether Russians laundered money through the Trump Organization. But further dousing such speculation that the Cohen confession puts Trump in legal peril, former federal prosecutors said Mueller's filing does not remotely incriminate the president in purported Russia collusion. It doesn’t even imply he directed Cohen to lie to Congress. “It doesn’t implicate President Trump in any way,” said former independent counsel Solomon L. Wisenberg, now with Nelson Mullins LLP in Washington. “The reality is, this is a nothing-burger." Criminal attorney Alan Dershowitz agreed, arguing that Mueller is resorting to false-statement prosecutions in lieu of prosecutions related to his mandate of investigating the Trump campaign’s alleged participation in a Russian plot to interfere in the election — signaling he lacks the evidence to support such a criminal conspiracy. “We are seeing many of these cases being built around false statements,” Dershowitz pointed out, not the underlying crime that has been alleged by Democrats and the media. Though Mueller has now, in his 18-month probe, nabbed several Trump associates for process crimes, such as making false statements, and other felonies, such as tax fraud, no evidence has surfaced in any of the cases indicating that Trump colluded with Russia to steal the 2016 election. FBI agents raided Cohen’s office early this spring to seize evidence, and prosecutors have spent the last several months sifting through his emails, texts and phone and travel records, as well as audio recordings he allegedly made of conservations with Trump. Notably absent from the criminal-information document is any corroboration of the highly inflammatory, though oft-cited allegation made in the so-called Steele dossier, funded by the Clinton campaign, that Cohen visited Prague to clandestinely meet with Kremlin officials in August 2016 to arrange “deniable cash payments to hackers who had worked in Europe under Kremlin direction against the Clinton campaign.” Cohen has strenuously denied the allegation and offered his passport to show “I have never been to Prague in my life.” Yawn

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by WebsterMark on 12/05/18 at 07:48:11 0E2E2C24392E4B0 wrote:  Where did you get this information? Real Clear Investigations.

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by WebsterMark on 12/05/18 at 07:48:54 Yawn If I had TDS; I'd try to yawn it away too.....

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by T And T Garage on 12/05/18 at 09:47:48 Interesting opinion piece. But that's pretty much it - an OP-ED. Go ahead and hang your hat on that.  We'll see how that works out.

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by MnSpring on 12/05/18 at 10:00:55 5F414E4F425F44592B0 wrote: Interesting opinion piece.   But that's pretty much it - an OP-ED.   Go ahead and hang your hat on that.  We'll see how that works out. So then, the, EDITORIAL, by SLATE, (a very well known UL Socialistic site) It perfectly and spectacularly OK. And the absolute Sacrosanct Truth. Yet a Editorial, from any other place, is not ?

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by T And T Garage on 12/05/18 at 10:04:23 5774496A6873747D1A0 wrote: [quote author=5F414E4F425F44592B0 link=1544021018/0#5 date=1544032068]Interesting opinion piece.   But that's pretty much it - an OP-ED.   Go ahead and hang your hat on that.  We'll see how that works out. So then, the, EDITORIAL, by SLATE, (a very well known UL Socialistic site) It perfectly and spectacularly OK. And the absolute Sacrosanct Truth. Yet a Editorial, from any other place, is not ? [/quote] Don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying that this particular article that mark posted is pretty much an OP-ED. I'm saying it's no more valid than any other OP-ED.  Be it conservative or liberal. What should be focused on are the facts.  Who's been indicted and why.  How they're connected to trump and his campaign. But then, what the hell do you care about facts, right?

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by thumperclone on 12/05/18 at 10:39:24 596B6C7D7A6B7C436F7C650E0 wrote: Yawn If I had TDS; I'd try to yawn it away too..... Trump= Total Dip Sheet

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by verslagen1 on 12/05/18 at 10:50:29 2F313E3F322F34295B0 wrote: [quote author=5774496A6873747D1A0 link=1544021018/0#6 date=1544032855][color=#0000ff]Don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying that this particular article that mark posted is pretty much an OP-ED. I'm saying it's no more valid than any other OP-ED.  Be it conservative or liberal. What should be focused on are the facts.  Who's been indicted and why.  How they're connected to trump and his campaign. But then, what the hell do you care about facts, right? The site list several doc's and the facts listed from them and gave an opinion. You can't find an op-ed from any site to dispute it?

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by WebsterMark on 12/05/18 at 11:05:21 455B545558455E43310 wrote: Interesting opinion piece. But that's pretty much it - an OP-ED. Go ahead and hang your hat on that.  We'll see how that works out. No $hit Sherlock. Thanks for that insightful look into your brain....  Virtually everything we post on here is an opinion. I'd avoid commenting on it too if I were you. Here an OPINION: The Mueller report will be loaded with opened ended statements primed and ready to go as political fodder.....but from a legal point of view; will result in nothing of significance.

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by WebsterMark on 12/05/18 at 11:11:56 What should be focused on are the facts.  Who's been indicted and why.  How they're connected to trump and his campaign. Okay. Well that would be zero indicted for specific actions directly related to allegations of Trump and Russian collusion during the campaign. Zero.

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by T And T Garage on 12/05/18 at 11:31:29 607364657A7771737827160 wrote: [quote author=2F313E3F322F34295B0 link=1544021018/0#7 date=1544033063][quote author=5774496A6873747D1A0 link=1544021018/0#6 date=1544032855][color=#0000ff]Don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying that this particular article that mark posted is pretty much an OP-ED. I'm saying it's no more valid than any other OP-ED.  Be it conservative or liberal. What should be focused on are the facts.  Who's been indicted and why.  How they're connected to trump and his campaign. But then, what the hell do you care about facts, right? The site list several doc's and the facts listed from them and gave an opinion. You can't find an op-ed from any site to dispute it?[/quote] I probably could.  What's the point? cohen is not the make all/break all in this.

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by T And T Garage on 12/05/18 at 11:35:40 536166777061764965766F040 wrote: [quote author=455B545558455E43310 link=1544021018/0#5 date=1544032068]Interesting opinion piece. But that's pretty much it - an OP-ED. Go ahead and hang your hat on that.  We'll see how that works out. No $hit Sherlock. Thanks for that insightful look into your brain....  Virtually everything we post on here is an opinion. I'd avoid commenting on it too if I were you. Again, resorting to name calling shows me your hand mark.  You must be terrible at poker!  LOL I'll tell you the same thing I did vers - cohen isn't the make all/break all in this "little" case. Here an OPINION: The Mueller report will be loaded with opened ended statements primed and ready to go as political fodder.....but from a legal point of view; will result in nothing of significance.  [/quote] You're entitled to it, of course.  But what I opine is that trump's taxes will indeed get released and it's going to show a massive income from russia. There will be no debate when you see the numbers. Further, every single day trump tweets might be used against him.  He's effectively witness tampering. Keep an eye out - things are getting good!

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by T And T Garage on 12/05/18 at 11:37:00 1E2C2B3A3D2C3B04283B22490 wrote: What should be focused on are the facts.  Who's been indicted and why.  How they're connected to trump and his campaign. Okay. Well that would be zero indicted for specific actions directly related to allegations of Trump and Russian collusion during the campaign. Zero. Right - for now.  But these good ol' boys were in deep with donny... Rest assured, there's more to shake out - especially in 2019!

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/05/18 at 11:44:33 Page 2 of the same criminal information document holds additional exculpatory evidence for Trump, sources say. It quotes an August 2017 letter from Cohen to the Senate intelligence committee in which he states that Trump “was never in contact with anyone about this [Moscow Project] proposal other than me.” This section of Cohen’s written testimony, unlike other parts, is not disputed as false by Mueller, which sources say means prosecutors have tested its veracity through corroborating sources and found it to be accurate. Also notable, Mueller did not challenge Cohen’s statement that he “ultimately determined that the proposal was not feasible and never agreed to make a trip to Russia.” “Though Cohen may have lied to Congress about the dates,” one Hill investigator said, “it's clear from personal messages he sent in 2015 and 2016 that the Trump Organization did not have formal lines of communication set up with Putin’s office or the Kremlin during the campaign. There was no secret ‘back channel.’” Tell the truth EVERYWHERE, and the truth of the EVENTS is Not Prosecutable. Would there have been a prosecutable offense Created by giving accurate dates? Did he LIE or was he simply human, and incorrect?

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by WebsterMark on 12/05/18 at 11:59:51 it's going to show a massive income from russia. There will be no debate when you see the numbers. Not an opinion, but a fact huh?.....   Well I hope you told Mueller this. He's gonna want to hear from someone with all the inside info like you....

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by eau de sauvage on 12/05/18 at 12:12:20 Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifeline. lol. What about Flynn's testimony? Ah 'tis but a scratch. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmInkxbvlCs[/media]

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by T And T Garage on 12/05/18 at 12:33:51 596B6C7D7A6B7C436F7C650E0 wrote: it's going to show a massive income from russia. There will be no debate when you see the numbers. Not an opinion, but a fact huh?.....   Well I hope you told Mueller this. He's gonna want to hear from someone with all the inside info like you.... Nope - that's only my opinion.

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/05/18 at 12:45:36 716E686F72754474447C6E62291B0 wrote: Page 2 of the same criminal information document holds additional exculpatory evidence for Trump, sources say. It quotes an August 2017 letter from Cohen to the Senate intelligence committee in which he states that Trump “was never in contact with anyone about this [Moscow Project] proposal other than me.” This section of Cohen’s written testimony, unlike other parts, is not disputed as false by Mueller, which sources say means prosecutors have tested its veracity through corroborating sources and found it to be accurate. Also notable, Mueller did not challenge Cohen’s statement that he “ultimately determined that the proposal was not feasible and never agreed to make a trip to Russia.” “Though Cohen may have lied to Congress about the dates,” one Hill investigator said, “it's clear from personal messages he sent in 2015 and 2016 that the Trump Organization did not have formal lines of communication set up with Putin’s office or the Kremlin during the campaign. There was no secret ‘back channel.’” Tell the truth EVERYWHERE, and the truth of the EVENTS is Not Prosecutable. Would there have been a prosecutable offense Created by giving accurate dates? Did he LIE or was he simply human, and incorrect?

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by MnSpring on 12/05/18 at 12:50:13 3F2D393A2D2B294C0 wrote: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifeline. lol.   Ah 'tis but a scratch. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmInkxbvlCs[/media] So tt when did you play the, 'Black Night" ?

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by T And T Garage on 12/05/18 at 13:34:17 0724193A3823242D4A0 wrote: So tt when did you play the, 'Black Night" ? I didn't mn.  Once again you fail to get the joke. Do you need it explained to you?

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/05/18 at 17:24:33 [url][/url] 544B4D4A5750615161594B470C3E0 wrote: [quote author=716E686F72754474447C6E62291B0 link=1544021018/15#15 date=1544039073]Page 2 of the same criminal information document holds additional exculpatory evidence for Trump, sources say. It quotes an August 2017 letter from Cohen to the Senate intelligence committee in which he states that Trump “was never in contact with anyone about this [Moscow Project] proposal other than me.” This section of Cohen’s written testimony, unlike other parts, is not disputed as false by Mueller, which sources say means prosecutors have tested its veracity through corroborating sources and found it to be accurate. Also notable, Mueller did not challenge Cohen’s statement that he “ultimately determined that the proposal was not feasible and never agreed to make a trip to Russia.” “Though Cohen may have lied to Congress about the dates,” one Hill investigator said, “it's clear from personal messages he sent in 2015 and 2016 that the Trump Organization did not have formal lines of communication set up with Putin’s office or the Kremlin during the campaign. There was no secret ‘back channel.’” Tell the truth EVERYWHERE, and the truth of the EVENTS is Not Prosecutable. Would there have been a prosecutable offense Created by giving accurate dates? Did he LIE or was he simply human, and incorrect? [/quote]

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by T And T Garage on 12/05/18 at 17:39:42 5D4244435E5968586850424E05370 wrote: Tell the truth EVERYWHERE, and the truth of the EVENTS is Not Prosecutable. Would there have been a prosecutable offense Created by giving accurate dates? Did he LIE or was he simply human, and incorrect? ;DLove how you exonerate a bub because he's "human". If this were a dem, you'd say he's lying - no question. Are you completely blind to your own hypocrisy? (rhetorical - yes, you are)

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/05/18 at 21:56:12 Just answer the question. You Knew I was actually supporting CNN when I was demonstrating they were LYING to Jack ratings. Answer the question. If a correct answer regarding the dates Would Not have created a prosecutable offense, no false exculpatory statements were made, then where is the Lie?

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by WebsterMark on 12/06/18 at 05:28:30 From Vanity Fair For many Robert Mueller watchers, the air these days is electric. People sense the big shoes are about to drop. Donald Trump has submitted his written answers to Mueller’s questions. Paul Manafort has entered a plea agreement, but then continued to lie—at least according to Mueller. Jerome Corsi, fringe-right author and personality, is vowing to go to jail for life rather than sign on to Mueller’s version of events. Roger Stone is expecting to be indicted for something. So is Donald Trump Jr. And, most significant of all to those looking for a big payoff, Michael Cohen has pleaded guilty to lying to Congress about the timeline of a deal he was trying to make to construct a 100-story Trump-branded tower in Moscow. It turns out that the deal exploration continued past the time Trump had secured the Republican nomination, and Cohen and his associate Felix Sater, a real-estate promoter and one-time racketeer, had even discussed giving Vladimir Putin a $50 million penthouse in the building. “This is it,” people are saying. “This is the big one!” But, with all due reverence to the deity Ganesha, why? We see the familiar cycle of hype, and there’s no use fighting it, but, once heart rates have slowed, the same old question remains: so what? Some of the news, such as a Guardian story that Manafort met three times with Julian Assange, seems to be based on nothing at all. But even the solid news turns out to be generally non-earth-shattering. As the journalist Aaron Maté has been pointing out, we already knew the timeline of Cohen’s Moscow efforts, because BuzzFeed had already detailed them in May, painting a picture of a bumbling duo getting high on their own supply. (As for the latest revelations, did Sater and Cohen really think a president of Russia would move into a free $50 million penthouse provided by a U.S. presidential candidate? You have to wonder if they were hitting each other on the head with bricks.) Those who hope that Mueller reveals a shambolic operation with a lot of rascals engaged in sleazy and embarrassing behavior will be happy with the fruits of his labors. But those who hope for an unveiling of indictments linking Putin and Trump in a grand conspiracy have no more reason to celebrate than they did a week or a month ago. Certainly, Trump’s ethical standards are low, but if sleaziness were a crime then many more people from our ruling class would be in jail. It is sleazy, but not criminal, to try to find out in advance what WikiLeaks has on Hillary Clinton. It is sleazy, but not criminal, to take a meeting in Trump Tower with a Russian lawyer promising a dossier of dirt on Clinton. (Just as, it should be mentioned, it is sleazy, but not criminal, to pay a guy to go to Russia to put together a dossier of dirt on Trump. This is one reason why the Clinton campaign lied about its connection to the Steele dossier, albeit without the disadvantage of being under oath.) It is sleazy, but not criminal, to pursue a business deal while you’re running for president. Mueller has nailed people for trying to prevaricate about their sleaze, so we already have a couple of guilty pleas over perjury, with more believed to be on the way. But the purpose of the investigation was to address suspicions of underlying conspiracy—that is, a plan by Trump staffers to get Russian help on a criminal effort. Despite countless man-hours of digging, this conspiracy theory, the one that’s been paying the bills at Maddow for a couple of years now, has come no closer to being borne out. (Or, as the true believers would say, at least not yet.)

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by WebsterMark on 12/06/18 at 05:35:56 Here's the last paragraph. Like some of you, I've read a million articles on Mueller's scavenger hunt, but the predictions in this one, articulate much better than I could have written the most likely outcome. If it’s any consolation to Trump haters, we san say this much: the special counsel’s office is going to put together a hell of a report. It will have less sex than Starr’s did, but that’s for the best, and the testimony of Michael Cohen will still guarantee a lot of great scenes, many of them certain to become immortal and embarrassing. Trumpworld won’t fare well under a bright light. Like Starr, Mueller is also likely to include footnotes and selections that will hint at criminality, the things he suspects but couldn’t prove, and the most ardent believers in collusion will claim vindication. But the international conspiracies will be few, and the collateral damage of the Russia scare will be extensive, stretching far beyond Trump or his circle to the country as a whole. It might hurt a president who many Americans hate, but even the president’s most ardent foes should reflect on a question that will linger: Was it worth it?

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by T And T Garage on 12/06/18 at 06:10:50 0D3F38292E3F28173B28315A0 wrote: Here's the last paragraph. Like some of you, I've read a million articles on Mueller's scavenger hunt, but the predictions in this one, articulate much better than I could have written the most likely outcome. If it’s any consolation to Trump haters, we san say this much: the special counsel’s office is going to put together a hell of a report. It will have less sex than Starr’s did, but that’s for the best, and the testimony of Michael Cohen will still guarantee a lot of great scenes, many of them certain to become immortal and embarrassing. Trumpworld won’t fare well under a bright light. Like Starr, Mueller is also likely to include footnotes and selections that will hint at criminality, the things he suspects but couldn’t prove, and the most ardent believers in collusion will claim vindication. But the international conspiracies will be few, and the collateral damage of the Russia scare will be extensive, stretching far beyond Trump or his circle to the country as a whole. It might hurt a president who many Americans hate, but even the president’s most ardent foes should reflect on a question that will linger: Was it worth it? Yes, it will be worth it. IMHO - once trump's taxes are exposed, we'll see exactly how indebted he is to the russians. This idiot has done so much harm to the office of president, it's possible it may never recover.  Whatever is found out in Mueller's investigation, at the very least it will show what kind of maniac trump is and how unfit he is for the office of president. And again, it's worth mentioning that if this had been hillary (or any other democrat) doing even a 10th of what trump has done - there would be impeachment hearings going on right now.  If you want to try and deny that, you're a liar.

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by Serowbot on 12/06/18 at 07:07:12 We don't even know the questions, yet we think we know the answers... What we do know, is what is already out there. Trump did craft a statement for Jr to read to Congress.  It was a lie and the purpose of that lie was to deceive.  That alone is impeachable and criminal.   Then he lied about doing it. We also know that he fired Comey over "that Russier thing"...   That is obstruction, and is impeachable.  The fool admitted to it on national TV. As he did with Sessions firing,... and McCabe.   Also the numerous threats to Rosenstein. All impeachable. More to come... the bulk of which we don't know. ...but who needs more?,... There's already more than Watergate.

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by Serowbot on 12/06/18 at 07:43:00 We also know as a factual matter, that Trump, whilst a Presidential candidate,  was publically advocating for no sanctions against Russia, at the same time he was privately negotiating with Russia for the building of a Russian Trump Tower. Hello emoluments clause. Impeachable. I could go on.  And none of it is speculative. We already know more articles of impeachment applying to Trump than Nixon and Clinton combined,... and the Mueller investigation is still a closed book. We are live witness to perhaps the darkest days of American democracy. 38% of us are oblivious,... or just don't care. It's the don't cares that scare me...   They trade long held values and principals for instant gratification. Political whoring.

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by WebsterMark on 12/06/18 at 07:46:16 Trump did craft a statement for Jr to read to Congress.  It was a lie and the purpose of that lie was to deceive. I've seen multiple stories on this, but I don't see your side. Explain it clearly. We also know that he fired Comey over "that Russier thing"...   That is obstruction, and is impeachable.  The fool admitted to it on national TV. As he did with Sessions firing,... and McCabe.   Also the numerous threats to Rosenstein. All impeachable. Impeachment is a political, not a legal, remedy. You could impeach a President for any reason. The President firing Comey is a political move, not an illegal one. He can fire anyone in the Justice Department for any reason anytime he wants. (there are technical limitations which means he actually tells someone else to fire that person as Robert Bork did in Watergate)   He can direct the Justice Department to stop investigating anyone he wants or he can direct the Justice Department to begin investigation anyone. Those are not illegal actions which is why the Constitution put in the impeachment provision. It's a totally valid argument that the President cannot be charged with obstruction while head of the Justice Department which is his Constitutional role as President. What is or what isn't impeachable is totally up to the House.

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by Serowbot on 12/06/18 at 08:41:28 Sorry, my mistake.   The statement was released to the NYT, not Congress. But, this put Jr in the precarious position of contradicting his father, or restating the lie to Congress. Which gives the same result. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-dictated-sons-misleading-statement-on-meeting-with-russian-lawyer/2017/07/31/04c94f96-73ae-11e7-8f39-eeb7d3a2d304_story.html?utm_term=.d745e91850ab "Flying home from Germany on July 8 aboard Air Force One, Trump personally dictated a statement in which Trump Jr. said that he and the Russian lawyer had “primarily discussed a program about the adoption of Russian children” when they met in June 2016, according to multiple people with knowledge of the deliberations. The statement, issued to the New York Times as it prepared an article, emphasized that the subject of the meeting was “not a campaign issue at the time.” The claims were later shown to be misleading." Impeachment is a political thing...  and the President does have the right to fire.  But not for any reason he wants. If his intent is to obstruct justice, it is a crime. And he has admitted that it was "that Russier thing" that motivated him. Obstruction of justice is a felony. Even the President is not above the law. He has obstructed this investigation more than once. He has also dangled pardons in front of witnesses,... which is tampering with an investigation,... also a felony. So many details, it's hard to keep track, but we both know there's a lot of dirty going on. When you pile it up,... it shows that Trump is desperately trying to hide from the facts.

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by WebsterMark on 12/06/18 at 09:42:43 Even the President is not above the law. Actually, yes, the President is the one person who is in fact above the law in many regards. Proving obstruction as a felony while the President was in office would be a tough chore. So many details, it's hard to keep track, but we both know there's a lot of dirty going on. When you pile it up,... it shows that Trump is desperately trying to hide from the facts. The reality is, any major businessman with interest around the world over a period of decades would be in trouble with this level of scrutiny. I have no doubt about that. I also have no doubt why Trump will not release his taxes. It would bring too many of his business partners into the light who would rather remain anonymous. That doesn't mean they committed illegal acts necessarily. Here's my point. If it were shown Trump colluded with the Russians to hack into and change the vote totals, I consider that treason and he should be shot. If it were specifically shown Trump made a deal with Russia that said he'd swing billions of construction business to Russia if they'd help influence the election, that's also Treason. But that's a grey area where previous business dealings with Russians could easily be misinterpreted as such. Just because Trump did business with Russians on its face, means nothing. Any international businessman has likely done business with Russia. My company has an office in Russia and a few years ago, I helped that office on a project. It would be easy to label that something its not. I just saw an internal memo today we won a bid for some work in a power generation system in Iraq. If by some stretch, the owners of my company ran for office and you saw that on their tax returns, you could paint that into something it's not. If it were shown Trump owed a great deal of money to Russia and they made a deal to that go if they helped him get elected and expected favors in return, that's also treason. But since he's been in office, what deals have we made that benefit Russia? So that's unlikely. If Trump Jr agreed to a meeting to get dirt on Hilary, that means nothing to me. Typical political stuff that I'm not going to get worked up over.

Title: Re: Mueller is in too deep and looking for a lifel Post by eau de sauvage on 12/06/18 at 15:27:43 lol at WM's in depth legal analysis.

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