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Message started by Tocsik on 04/29/19 at 14:48:13

Title: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by Tocsik on 04/29/19 at 14:48:13

Interesting read.
https://www.rideapart.com/articles/346820/suzuki-engine-motocross-patent-design/

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by ohiomoto on 04/30/19 at 06:15:47

It is. Thanks for sharing.

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 04/30/19 at 06:41:12

I don't like it. The extra lever on the crank creates unnecessary drag resulting in pumping losses. There are better solutions currently in use.

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/30/19 at 09:14:47

363C38323930343D636561510 wrote:

I don't like it. The extra lever on the crank creates unnecessary drag resulting in pumping losses. There are better solutions currently in use.

I don't know enough to understand what you are talking about.

Or which designs are better.

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 04/30/19 at 09:44:52

The design uses a single crank pin (a la Harley Davidson) to create a motion that is 90 degrees from the connecting rod. The force is terminated at the forward pivot point. It acts as if it were a 90 degree V-Twin. But unlike a twin, it has all of the same system drag, without the benefit of a power stroke. It's a wasted energy system.

Therefore I don't like it.

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by Ruttly on 04/30/19 at 17:28:50

I would like to watch one blow up from let's say lack of oil.
How cool would that be !
I agree , a real bad design.

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by Ruttly on 04/30/19 at 22:37:00

We wouldn't need counterbalances if we didn't keep making the pistons bigger & bigger & bigger ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by Ruttly on 04/30/19 at 22:42:06

Yeah I can see Suzuki using that for a Savage

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by Dave on 05/01/19 at 03:51:52

4D474349424B4F46181E1A2A0 wrote:

I don't like it. The extra lever on the crank creates unnecessary drag resulting in pumping losses. There are better solutions currently in use.

Is this better/worse than a counterbalance shaft? The rotating mass slows down acceleration/deceleration of the rotating mass.....the eccentric lever slows down the acceleration/deceleration in a linear mass.

BMW use a similar system in their parallels twin - and I think Honda does the same.

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/01/19 at 06:12:55

IMO, rotational harmonic balancers are more efficient because of inertia. However they do add mass to the valve train. They are certainly more compact.

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by Dave on 05/01/19 at 06:48:10

The balance shaft in the Savage looks to weigh about 10 pounds...and rotates at twice the crankshaft speed!

Here is an article on what BMW is using.

https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/power-parallel-twin-engine-motorcycles-engine-tech-motorcyclist-drawing-line

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/01/19 at 14:19:18

Right, the disadvantage of a rotating counter weight is that it slows rpm acceleration, and causes the engine to hold on to rpms while decelerating. But at a steady rpm, there is little parasitic loss.

The pumping loss of the moving counter weight is always a drag on the engine, and it takes a lot more space to implement.

There's no free lunch with either system, and I'm sure the big OEM's have evaluated the benefits and penaltys of both approaches...but my monkey brain interprets the system in the Suzuki patent as being less efficient, even though that may not be true.

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by Ruttly on 05/01/19 at 16:47:33

I have always wondered what a 695cc thumper would be like with the counter balancer removed. Maybe I'll try it some day just for fun.

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by Dave on 05/01/19 at 18:29:22

517677776F7A030 wrote:

I have always wondered what a 695cc thumper would be like with the counter balancer removed. Maybe I'll try it some day just for fun.

Fff...fffuuu.....fffuuuu.......fffffuuuuu.......fffffffuuuuunnnnnnnnnnn! :-?

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by zipidachimp on 05/02/19 at 01:38:07

didn't Ducati do something similar 20 years ago with a 500 mono?
https://raresportbikesforsale.com/1994-ducati-supermono-34-for-sale/supermono-34/ 8-)

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by norm92de on 05/02/19 at 12:29:57

Anybody who has ridden a Moto guzzi or a Ducati knows the advantages of perfect primary balance.

This design is more or less a 90* V twin without the piston, cylinder, valve gear etc. I'm not sure of all the engineering principal's involved but I'm certain the esteemed gentlemen at Hamamatsu have compared it to a balance shaft and deemed it to have merit.

My main comment is that it appears to need a lot of crankcase volume to house all the parts. But on the plus side it looks like it might be lighter than a balance shaft, and It has less rotating mass.

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by batman on 05/02/19 at 13:29:27

Crank case volume being higher is probably a plus, it gives the air trapped under the piston when moving down, in the intake and power stroke, more room to expand ,lessening the pressure , and power needed to keep rpm up, therefore increasing hP output. Dragsters now use vacuum pumps to do the same thing.

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by norm92de on 05/02/19 at 19:36:41

What I meant Batman was the size of the crankcase. Volume was a bad word choice.

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by zipidachimp on 05/02/19 at 22:57:01

Ducati Super-mono cross-sections;

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/af/89/76/af89764da3040e422ee3107cac272cb4.jpg

http://www.motoliam.com/photos/ML1774.jpg

https://digilander.libero.it/desmo851/images/supermonoeng3.jpg
8-)

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by Matchless G11 on 05/03/19 at 03:09:03

1A09100904010308090D10600 wrote:

When I saw Suzuki design I thought of Ducati Mono.
It is a shame that Ducati sat on that design Maybe for the reason(s) Batman and others have mentioned

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by MMRanch on 05/03/19 at 08:24:39

Anybody who has ridden a Moto guzzi or a Ducati knows the advantages of perfect primary balance.

Suzuki has a good history of "Doin't fix , what ain't Broken" , That's my biggest reason for liking them !

I'm impressed with the Moto-Guzzi/Harley smoothness being 90 deg. and can see where the Suzuki 90 deg. balance can work ...
BUT
The BMW 180 deg thing seems like the better idea , if ya don't mind having a "Taller Motor" to make room for it ?

I'm keeping my Savage and my Guzzi , they're both easy to like ! :)

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by verslagen1 on 05/03/19 at 10:12:57

Our rotational counter balancer dampens out the fore/aft vibration while adding a up/down vibration.
The up/down vibration can be handled by the crank, but as the piston only goes up and down, the added weight of the crank is not balanced in the fore/aft direction.
This link balancer will dampen that better than the rotational one.

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by norm92de on 05/03/19 at 10:42:46

Versy,
Should we continue to breath while waiting for the big S to fit it to our little S40? ;D

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by verslagen1 on 05/03/19 at 12:07:54

4E4F524D19124445200 wrote:

Versy,
Should we continue to breath while waiting for the big S to fit it to our little S40? ;D

You mean you haven't been holding your breath for kick starter?

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by norm92de on 05/03/19 at 12:39:42

I don't know about you Versy but a kick starter would probably be redundant in my case.

If Suzuki were going to put the balancer on they might as well give us a new cylinder head while they are at it :)

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by Junker on 05/08/19 at 19:22:10

Is this similar to the current KTM 690 Duke/Svartpilen/Vitpilen engine?

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by Dave on 05/09/19 at 00:57:36

635C47424C5B290 wrote:

Is this similar to the current KTM 690 Duke/Svartpilen/Vitpilen engine?

???????? :-?

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by Junker on 05/11/19 at 21:45:37

Similar in design to that of Suzuki's possible new counter balanced single.

If there is some confusion regarding the mentioned bikes ..

KTM 690 Duke:
https://www.ktm.com/us/naked/690-duke/

Husqvarna Svartpilen:
https://www.husqvarna-motorcycles.com/us/svartpilen/svartpilen-701/

https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2019/04/01/2019-husqvarna-svartpilen-701-review-17-fast-facts/

Husqvarna Vitpilen:
https://www.husqvarna-motorcycles.com/us/vitpilen/vitpilen-701/

Interesting enough; Ryan FortNine in his review of the Husqvarna Vitpilen, subtly sums up it's single cylinder platform as ... the Savage :o ;D.

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by LANCER on 05/24/19 at 18:04:59

I
SAVAGE ?

Of course !

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by LANCER on 05/24/19 at 18:11:29

1B3C3D3D2530490 wrote:

I have always wondered what a 695cc thumper would be like with the counter balancer removed. Maybe I'll try it some day just for fun.

Look for a 1950’s BSA Goldstar 500 with a 12.5:1 piston in it.

Title: Re: Suzuki Patents New Counter-Balanced Single
Post by norm92de on 05/25/19 at 14:17:08

Lancer,
It is funny but we didn't think anything out of the ordinary with the Gold Star 500, including starting. The vibration just seemed normal in those days :) I don't know how I would feel about it today. Been a long time.