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General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Trump's disgraceful SEAL pardon.
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Message started by eau de sauvage on 12/27/19 at 14:08:12

Title: Trump's disgraceful SEAL pardon.
Post by eau de sauvage on 12/27/19 at 14:08:12

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/27/us/navy-seals-edward-gallagher-video.html

“I was listening to it, and I was just thinking, like, this is the most disgraceful thing I’ve ever seen in my life,” Special Operator Miller, who has since been promoted to chief, told investigators.

I'm pretty sure that Trump is like 'who gives a fcuk about the filth'. However apart from the honour of the SEALS, there's the small matter of this will definitely come back at one time or another in the form of torture to any US marines captured. Whether this is factored into the equation by the navy, I'm not sure, and I'm certain that the whole procedure is complicated.

However after reading the report in the nyt, it's pretty clear how much damage Trump has done to the moral of both the command and the servicemen

Title: Re: Trump's disgraceful SEAL pardon.
Post by pg on 12/27/19 at 16:33:55

https://dailycaller.com/2019/12/27/islamic-state-beheadings-christians-christmas/

No word on those a$$holes who are still cutting off peoples heads. As long as they are still on the Earth, the more Eddie Gallaghers that are serving the better.

Best regards,

Title: Re: Trump's disgraceful SEAL pardon.
Post by Eegore on 12/27/19 at 19:58:45

This is why civilians have no business developing military ROE or standards of conduct.

Too easy to look at one aspect, the one you don't like, of a very complex and comprehensive profession and say yeah we need a bunch of guys that will kill ISIS at any cost, while those that work along side them are concerned that someone with no self control is also responsible for keeping the team alive.

Killing isn't the issue, it's inability to be a professional.

Title: Re: Trump's disgraceful SEAL pardon.
Post by pg on 12/28/19 at 04:40:53

I'm sure the guy who was next in line shared those same sediments while listening to the person next to him have his head sawed off knowing he was next.....

Best regards,

Title: Re: Trump's disgraceful SEAL pardon.
Post by Eegore on 12/28/19 at 08:42:36

"I'm sure the guy who was next in line shared those same sediments while listening to the person next to him have his head sawed off knowing he was next....."

That's not the same argument.

It's not killing that's the issue. Its the lack of control. It's obvious you want special forces to go kill the enemy correct?

You need Professionals, not psychopaths. Saying you want men who will kill anyone indiscriminately is a recipe for a lot of failure in the battlefield. This is why all the SF men around this incident do not agree with you, but what would Navy SEALS know about being a Navy SEAL right? Let's just let people at keyboards set the rules.

Title: Re: Trump's disgraceful SEAL pardon.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/28/19 at 09:37:29

If the job is to kill..
Then getting killed is a real possibility.
You want men who are risking their lives to win the battle, kill Thad guys and then behave as men in suits who closed a big deal.

I wonder what level of risk you've had to live with.

Title: Re: Trump's disgraceful SEAL pardon.
Post by Eegore on 12/28/19 at 11:26:20

"You want men who are risking their lives to win the battle, kill Thad guys and then behave as men in suits who closed a big deal."

No, they need to act like the trained operators they are. Lets not act like this is a problem every SF Operator has. I've been through Coronado, I've developed and participated in joint training exercises alongside SF for years. All stuff I have mentioned on this forum before. If you are going to murder unarmed captives you need to have enough self-control to not pose with the body leaving empirical evidence of your violation of the US ROE.

The man lacks self-control, he is compromising the integrity of the team. Other SEALs have said this, but us at home must be right and his team members must be wrong.

"I wonder what level of risk you've had to live with."

I've already discussed some of this, you have commented on it in the past. I've been to Syria, armed, Columbia, armed, Iraq, armed, been shot once in Iraq, once in Columbia both of which I have mentioned here. Stabbed in Denver, had my bicep cut almost in half in Syria.

So yeah, my comments I've made on here about how it's easy to have solutions from the safety of home are because my personal experiences are ones where the environment isn't so black and white.

Bottom line is this man is not capable of acting at the same level of professionalism as the rest of his Team. Just because you don't like the "bad guys" doesn't mean SEALs can just murder people and pose with the bodies - AND - maintain their position in the US Military. Find another job if you want to pose with dead people.

Title: Re: Trump's disgraceful SEAL pardon.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/28/19 at 13:29:01

Sorry dude..
I wasn't clear on who I was responding to.
Wasn't you.

Title: Re: Trump's disgraceful SEAL pardon.
Post by pg on 12/28/19 at 13:32:29

5E7E7C74697E1B0 wrote:

You need Professionals, not psychopaths. Saying you want men who will kill anyone indiscriminately is a recipe for a lot of failure in the battlefield.

I do not believe ridding the world of an ISIS member is best described as an indiscriminate decision.

Best regards,

Title: Re: Trump's disgraceful SEAL pardon.
Post by Eegore on 12/28/19 at 19:24:46

"Sorry dude..
I wasn't clear on who I was responding to.
Wasn't you."

Ahh my mistake.

"I do not believe ridding the world of an ISIS member is best described as an indiscriminate decision."

It is when it is done in the way, with the preservation of evidence, that it was here.

Its not killing that's the issue. Its the lack of self control. You are saying that since it's ISIS people can do anything they want, and that logic is a sure fire way to lose.

Title: Re: Trump's disgraceful SEAL pardon.
Post by pg on 12/29/19 at 04:51:40

6F4F4D45584F2A0 wrote:

You are saying that since it's ISIS people can do anything they want,

I am not saying they can or have the opportunity, they should have the full support to eradicate them....

Best regards,

Title: Re: Trump's disgraceful SEAL pardon.
Post by NHLycan on 12/29/19 at 05:28:12

The rules (and laws) of war do not exist to protect terrorists, insurgents, war criminals or any other unconventional forces from justice. They exist to protect us.

Yes, of course there are people with whom we will contend that know no sense of decency. That's always been the case. We need not emulate them.

Others will treat our forces as we treat them. The sort of crap this fellow did places his fellow soldiers in the crosshairs of such fighters.

There are also people with morals that aren't situational; the professionals. The armed services aren't supposed to be populated with wanna be Hannibal Lectors. They're supposed to be professionals.
That's not just because it's more effective.

They come home after. And if they spent years torturing children, that doesn't just turn off.

Title: Re: Trump's disgraceful SEAL pardon.
Post by WebsterMark on 12/29/19 at 05:56:50

I’m having a hard time getting worked up over this. First off, why would you trust a NYT article that paints Trump in a bad light? That’s the only reason they live for so everything in the article is suspicious. A writer can make anyone into the good guy or the bad guy they want too. Go see the Richard Jewel movie for example.

In today’s world, pi$$ing on a dead terrorist and posting online isn’t smart, especially when most of the American press and the world view Israel as the bad guy and Palestinians as the abused innocents.

And I don’t buy the idea that it means future America soldiers will be tortured worse than they would be otherwise.

Eegore’s experiences are amazing and I’ll defer to most of his input on the topic but at the end of the day for me, this guy stopped people who would have blown themselves up in the middle of a daycare if they could have. Should he had reined himself in and acted like a professional soldier? Sure. But I’m not sending someone we sent over there to kill people to jail for essentially spiking the football.

Title: Re: Trump's disgraceful SEAL pardon.
Post by WebsterMark on 12/29/19 at 06:11:11

This photo, recovered from Chief Gallagher’s phone after the death of an Islamic State fighter, was included in an investigative report by the Navy.

The above caption from a photo in the article illustrates one of my points. Islamic State fighter? Including the phrase and going so far as to capitalize Islamic State is a purposeful method to legitimize the terrorist as valid soldiers protecting their homes from invading hordes.

Also, look up the photo in the article originally cited and count the number proudly standing over the dead terrorist. Are any of those in the article who claimed this guy was “pure evil” in the photo? If so, and it seems likely, why wouldn’t you be suspicious of their claims Gallagher was awful when they posed for this? Are all theses guys future killers of citizens once they return to the world? Are everyone of these guys responsible for future torture of captive US soldiers?

Title: Re: Trump's disgraceful SEAL pardon.
Post by raydawg on 12/29/19 at 08:15:15

Bottom line....none who have posted here, were there......past experiences in personal life, are moot, if we are to be real, and deal in facts, only....

If you want to play suppositions, as a my best guess, game, then I will lend you all some credence, but to what gain?

Fact is.....the NYT is using this event to propel its own agenda, and welfare, in effect, posing with the body, guilty of the same disregard they want to assign to others....WTF?

Folks, be very careful, using terrorism in a partisan political arena....
This was the very emotion, and intent, and outcome, terrorist hope to achieve, in these horrendous events of having to physically combat these folks in person.

On a personal side note/observation.... I can't begin to understand, maybe even use the word....appreciate those who would subject themselves to such a task, and danger...... I don't get it. Nor would I feel any great comfort in knowing a child, loved one, of mine, chose such a career undertaking....I would be a bundle of nerves, my life would be spent on worry, etc.....

These keyboard commandos are a sad, and pathetic, bunch....in my OPINION.

Yeah....journalism.....my ARSE.
These folks risk their lives, so they/others can spew their gutless rhetoric.
Reminds me of how pain medication, is a good thing, when used to its intended purpose.......NOT for self medicating and recreation, only thinking about themselves, until they become a burden on everyone else...
I view articles, stories, like this as such.....they never see the damage they cause, because they only care, about THEMSELVES.....

Title: Re: Trump's disgraceful SEAL pardon.
Post by srinath on 12/29/19 at 08:33:36

I hate all this sheittee.
Democraps - Publicity and sound bytes aren't what we sent you to DC for. Just screw all this crap, and defeat Trump, or keep up the garbage and I will vote for Donald Trump instead of Donald Duck and you can lose a state that you would lose by 30$ by lets just say 31%.

Rapeabuickans - Stop all this wall, and tax cuts for the rich and how lower tax stimulates BS, the wealthiest 500 increased by 1.2T. You a$$hoals need to tink about the people you're screwing over with your tax structure, however the illegal and
legal crackdown is helping, the tax structure is only making the robber barrons into robber trillionaires.

Tired of both sides of sheitte.

Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Trump's disgraceful SEAL pardon.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/29/19 at 14:32:11

The narrative is
Benefits the rich..
It's Bullshit..
Low wage earners are benefiting big time now.

Title: Re: Trump's disgraceful SEAL pardon.
Post by eau de sauvage on 12/29/19 at 21:36:39

I think most amazing to me in this thread with only two other understanding the obvious problems with this. Notwithstanding that the person making the decision was pretty recently a civilian who earned his spurs at the doctors. And he is going against the entire professional operating strategy of the Military.

@WM First off, why would you trust a NYT article that paints Trump in a bad light?

that is a very strange thing to say

Title: Re: Trump's disgraceful SEAL pardon.
Post by WebsterMark on 12/30/19 at 05:18:39

796B7F7C6B6D6F0A0 wrote:

A pardon is a political act, not a military act. I can’t read minds but I assume Trump felt convicting someone we sent over there to kill bad guys, for what Trump must have felt was no big deal, was the right thing to do.

What’s so strange? If you authored a “news” piece on Trump, I would trust it on face value either. When it comes to Trump, the NYT has sacrificed their standing as THE source, they are merely ONE source which requires serious fact checking because they hate Trump and have been on a crusade to destroy him. Hardly an institution where ‘all the news that’s fit to print’ has survived.