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Message started by justin_o_guy2 on 12/11/22 at 06:41:53

Title: I can't do the math,
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/11/22 at 06:41:53

But I know a gallon of gas only has so much energy in it. We've all heard the stories about the carburetor that squeezes phenomenal mileage out of the gas,but I'm not able to see a regular sized car, grocery getter,not a hotrod, getting 25 MPG getting the Magic Carburetor and Shazzam! Now it's getting close to a hundred mpg. Here is a report, with patent drawings, and the guy standing there is Don Garlits, with his Pogue carburetor.
I read it, and I understand the theory. It's interesting, but...

https://fuel-efficient-vehicles.org/energy-news/?page_id=986

IDK if it's even theoretically possible to get that much Work out of a gallon of gas.

Title: Re: I can't do the math,
Post by Eegore on 12/13/22 at 07:04:10

I can't imagine this is true. The patents are public and available for everyone to use and not one person can make the thing today and test it? Big Oil bought out every single person?

The other issue is the gasoline additives, but one can still test a modern carb using non-additive fuel.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US1750354

https://patents.google.com/patent/US1938497

https://patents.google.com/patent/US1997497

https://patents.google.com/patent/US2026798

Title: Re: I can't do the math,
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/14/22 at 12:17:30

but one can still test a modern carb using non-additive fuel.

Well, That's screwed up. An honest evaluation would require pump gas,using samples of the various seasonal mixes from the regions that have a different recipe.
If they just want to show what it can do under ideal circumstances, fine, do that and include that with every other test using the various fuel mixtures available around the country. That would be interesting. Just grab a carburetor and see how it does with pure,unadulterated gasoline and compare its efficiency to all the other gasoline mixes. It'd be interesting to see what the additive packages do to mpg. Different companies have different additive packages, or so I've heard. And different regions have different mixes through the seasons, or so I've heard..

If they worked so well I'd expect Don Garlits would have his on an engine on a Dyno, ready to prove it.

And if they work, Howcumizzit Don hasn't taken it apart and built a few?
Aaand then there Is
The Math.

The amount of horsepower that can be dragged out of a scientifically, stoichiometrically
balanced mixture of gasoline can be calculated. Not by Me, but it's certainly a doable thing. Until I know that number I don't know if it's within the laws of physics to get a 100 MPG out of a common sized car. Understanding the performance has to be good enough to safely share the road with everyone else. Zero to Sixty can't be twenty seconds.

Title: Re: I can't do the math,
Post by Eegore on 12/14/22 at 12:28:25

The reason for the non-additive fuel is because Pogue claimed it was the fuel additives that made his carb function like a normal one and therefore it was no longer getting over 200mpg.

So build some Pogue carbs and test them with non-additive fuel.

Make adjustments whatever, but for nobody to pull off anything even close in 90 years, with all the investment in carb tech, should tell us about all we need to know.

Title: Re: I can't do the math,
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/14/22 at 14:29:16

When the math is just waiting for someone to do the numbers and show, based on what is known about how much energy is in a gallon of gas could show us if it's actually possible. If it Is, according to the laws of physics, possible to extract the power from a gallon of gas to blend into traffic, have a normal size car and the calculations show a gallon of gas has the energy required to drag a car down the road for seventy miles. Whatever,, how can anyone Say a carburetor is ten,Twenty or thirty percent efficient if we don't know the theoretical maximum miles for a twenty five hundred pound car and and accelerating from every stop at a nine second Zero to Sixty time.
Without knowing the theoretical maximum how do you know how much effort to put into developing a better carburetor?

Why not start with at least having an idea what is possible?

Title: Re: I can't do the math,
Post by verslagen1 on 12/14/22 at 17:31:11

I looked at the patent for the carb and I don't see it.
More power is gotten by cooling the intake and this carb heats it?
I didn't see anything that would be a catalyst to "transform" the gas somehow so spinning the gas around until it vaporizes does add up.

Title: Re: I can't do the math,
Post by Eegore on 12/14/22 at 19:50:28

Isn't carburetor "efficiency" based off CFM, but the actual math when used in an engine VE?

VE = (CFM X 3,456) / (CID X RPM)

So when the article states "standard carburetor gets about 25 mpg at only 9% efficiency." is it VE or CFM that they measured? This was in 1936, so it's not like they used anything super accurate like today.

Even this has a ton of variables, and gasoline has much more. One could use the EIA energy calculators to get the information you are looking for, but I am not sure what "energy" output you are wanting to measure from gasoline. These would have to be cross referenced with the AFDC fuel properties and maintained across the board.

To physically test you need engine type, vehicle mass, air density, etc. to all be the same. How far a gallon of gas propels a specific curb-weight vehicle depends on a ton of things beyond the expansion power of gasoline.

Title: Re: I can't do the math,
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/14/22 at 20:26:27

How far a gallon of gas propels a specific curb-weight vehicle depends on a ton of things beyond the expansion power of gasoline.

I know that.
Starting out trying to answer all the questions, when it is not necessary to get a ballpark idea of What Is Possible. If the math says thirty five miles per gallon driving normally in an average weight car is not far from what is possible, then screwit.

Title: Re: I can't do the math,
Post by MMRanch on 12/14/22 at 20:56:56

What if a person could direct the heat from the head --- to heat the carb or throttle body enough to near boil the fuel ?
It seems:
Running on fumes is what going on here ? There must be 100 ways to make that happen.

Running the intake manifold just touching the exaust manifold sure would look funny ! ;D

The balance between "Power" and "MPG" ? ::)
So ,
IF
If the fuel mixture is not chilly then ya wouldn't get as much of it in the engine.
The fuel wouldn't have the "cooling" effect on the valves/engine head ...
The Compression rate would drop
....
What else ?

Title: Re: I can't do the math,
Post by verslagen1 on 12/15/22 at 05:50:40

07150715180B0409024A0 wrote:

What if a person could direct the heat from the head --- to heat the carb or throttle body enough to near boil the fuel ?

Wasn't that called vapor lock?

Title: Re: I can't do the math,
Post by Ruttly on 12/15/22 at 08:28:38

Wrong, cool fuel and cool air is best. When air is cool it’s more dense allowing more air in. Same goes for the fuel , it’s denser when it’s cool allowing more fuel in. Some of the fastest drag strips are near water at sea level cool temps and low barometric pressure , lots of cool dense air can take more cool dense fuel with it. I fabbed a carb heat shield from one for a SR500 , it directs the hot air off the head out around the lower part of carb , float bowl area , keeping carb cooler. More in bigger bang !

Title: Re: I can't do the math,
Post by jcstokes on 12/15/22 at 09:45:49

In the 'twenties and very early'thirties most cars running updraft carbs heated the vapour before it went into the engine, as the intake pipe passed through the exhaust manifold.

Title: Re: I can't do the math,
Post by Ruttly on 12/15/22 at 19:51:03

You mean when they had little H/P and didn’t care about fuel mileage cause it was just pennies a gallon. We still take warm air from under the hood.

Title: Re: I can't do the math,
Post by Dave on 12/17/22 at 08:05:44

0B0212150E0A0412610 wrote:

In the 'twenties and very early'thirties most cars running updraft carbs heated the vapour before it went into the engine, as the intake pipe passed through the exhaust manifold.

That was to stop the carb from icing up. Airplance pilots who fly small planes are familiar with the issue, and there is a "Carb Heat" knob that can be pulled prior to reducing power for landing......if the carb is iced up there is always the chance that an icy throttle plate can freeze and prevent the throttle from being opened again.

Also the 20's/30's the fuel may have vaporized better with the aid of warm air.

The heated air does reduce total engine power a bit - however it is better than having a carb ice up and remove "all" the power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOY_2dm6wVc

Title: Re: I can't do the math,
Post by Eegore on 12/17/22 at 08:29:09

"That was to stop the carb from icing up. Airplance pilots who fly small planes are familiar with the issue, and there is a "Carb Heat" knob that can be pulled prior to reducing power for landing......if the carb is iced up there is always the chance that an icy throttle plate can freeze and prevent the throttle from being opened again."

That brings back memories. My great Uncle was a P-38 pilot in WW2 and was describing this. They didn't have to do this in the Pacific but when they flew back to mainland he said some pilots had lost the muscle memory and had this, or at least a similar issue to this almost losing their aircraft. "He iced the carb, he's gonna need another pass!"