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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Found something different today about the bike. /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1715132984 Message started by 04Savage04 on 05/07/24 at 18:49:44 |
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Title: Found something different today about the bike. Post by 04Savage04 on 05/07/24 at 18:49:44 Today I pulled the clutch and throttle cable apart at the handle bars and lubed them through with motor oil. So it was 80 here today and I pulled the choke to 1st notch started and left. !st thing I notice is the clutch and throttle work so much nicer and smoother AND THE BIKE ISN"T BACKFIRING like it usually does at each shift. Mine backfires constantly so I'm thinking why isn't doing it. After driving up into the mts for 50 miles or so I stopped for a slice of pizza in White Haven PA. I pull up and no BANG when I shut it off? HUH WTH? Well lubing those cables really did wonders I'm thinking. I go in and grab some pizza watching people checking out my bike as they drive by(one young guy actually stopped his car and looked at it for few mins) all the time I'm thinking HOW CAN LUBING the cables stop the insane BANG BAMG BANGing HMMMMM So I finish my pizza go out to the bike and go to start it and look down, YEP THE CHOKE WAS ON 1st notch the entire ride up! So if you no wanna bang bang pull the choke out 1 notch. The reason I mention this is there is ALOT of deer in my area and 2 weeks ago the bike backfired and a large deer spooked and came running out at me only to turn left at the last moment running along side me @ 40mph for about 50 yards! :o |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by Surviving Philly on 05/07/24 at 19:29:55 Hey 04, These bikes are jetted very lean from the factory (when they used to make them). When I first got mine I also ran it half choked for a while because it seemed to like that more than the stock set up. You may foul a plug running it on half choke though. From what I gather folks around here either mod the stock carb or go with an aftermarket. I run a VM36 mikuni and it's felt like night and day from the stock set up, never looked back. Safe travels |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by Savard 05 on 05/08/24 at 03:46:07 I've always been told not good to always ride with choke on your bike is running lean you should look up white spacer mod it will give you results you want without having to leave choke on and maybe even jet your bike richer depending on mods. Also the air screw on carb on the right side might need turned richer also it might be covered with a brass plug that would need removed. Alot of good Info on this site of how to do all things jetting lol good luck |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by ThumperPaul on 05/08/24 at 10:26:46 Philly. You should try something between 185-200 main jet in that VM36 carb from Murray's Carbs. Murray installs a 165 main jet and swears it's right, but Lancer builds and recommends something between 185-200 main jet for his VM36 carb builds. I never ran "Woody" with the Murray VM36 with 165 main. I went straight for the 200 main jet and Woody could rip! With that 200 main jet, the midrange tuned in the best in the 2nd groove from the top (leaner side of the middle groove). Your exhaust is similar to what Woody had. Give a 185-200 a try - I bet you'll like it. But get that clutch fixed first! |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by ThumperPaul on 05/08/24 at 10:37:11 04 Savage, Savard 05 is right. You should rejet and do the white spacer mod or replace the white spacer with a thinner washer or two. Riding on partial choke is going to kill your gas mileage, its going to run sluggish (albeit quiter with no pop, pop, kaboom on deceleration, or dog fart on shut off), and your spark plug will foul out sooner causing exacerbated performance issues. Plan on using your new odometer to remind you to fill up at 80 miles or so. Running on partial choke will probably send your gas mileage down to something like 40mpg depending on riding style. You should be north of 50mpg unless you are constantly hotrodding. |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by 04Savage04 on 05/08/24 at 12:53:10 I don't know if its lean or rich on the 1st notch. It actually felt lean and I hit reserve @ 115 miles. It ran perfect, just felt like the throttle was hanging just a tad coming to a stop. I'm not sure but that works out to be over 55mpg. One thing for sure I'll be using that feature on some of these deery roads in the evening. I ordered some floorboards should be here tomorrow, see how they work out https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08CGQHYXQ?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1 gonna put them in the front. ;D |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by ThumperPaul on 05/08/24 at 13:42:22 I thought you just discovered running on partial choke eliminated the after-fire on deceleration? Are you saying you get 55mpg running on partial choke? If so, your jetting is way off to the lean side. Or are you saying you got 55mpg before you started riding on choke? The stock carb needle may or may not have grooves to adjust with (depends on the year and if it’s ever been rebuilt with a needle with multiple grooves). Read about the white spacer mod in the tech section for needles that don’t have multiples grooves. Using partial choke as an adjusting mechanism to get the right air/fuel mix isn’t something I would ever consider. It’s just not right - jet the carb properly is the only way in my opinion. |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by ohiomoto on 05/08/24 at 19:33:13 142531282A2B28252A440 wrote:
I disagree with the "very lean" and the "half-choke" comments. Maybe "slightly lean" for some locations and the "`half-choke" is there for a reason. If you DON"T need to half-choke during warmup, your bike is likely jetted too rich. There is a bit of misunderstanding and misinformation on these topics. |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by 04Savage04 on 05/09/24 at 04:23:16 I can start my bike without the choke and drive away. Doesn't smell rich and runs great. I haven't had time to get into the carb to see where its at jet wise. I think with the choke on the 1st notch it runs a little lean because the rpms hang a touch coming to idle and I believe thats why it doesn't bang. Driving with the choke off the bike runs perfectly and I never smell rich exhaust. Another reason I'm not too interested in pulling it to check things over. I think up really high it could use a little more fuel but I rarely drive that hard. ;D I'm a older slow poke, hell I think I'm going 60-70 and look down to see the speedo at 45-50. Comes with age, if you're lucky you'll get there too. 8-) |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by ThumperPaul on 05/09/24 at 05:37:23 Sorry, this is confusiing between your comments and OhioMoto’s comment. If you can start up and ride away without using any choke, I’d consider this normal when the outdoor temperature is above 65°. To OhioMoto’s comment, 1/2 choke or full choke should only be needed for warmup when the outdoor temp is lower. If you have a really small (undersized lean) pilot jet, you probably do need the choke all the time. But I think it’s incorrect to say the pilot jet is too big if you don’t need the choke. Perhaps this is a colder climate issue (like OH and PA), but my bike would laugh at me for using the choke in TX most of the year. I need the choke in January for a couple minutes when I want to ride in 55° weather. That said, it’s not a bad practice to use the choke for 2-3 minutes with every cold start. You want/need the higher idle RPMs to ensure oil flow to the top of the motor. Letting the bike stumble at low rpm while trying to idle on the side stand doesn’t create sufficient oil pressure to the top of the motor. Admittedly, even today’s modern computerized fuel injected vehicles will usually cold start up at a higher warmup enriched fuel mixture rpm even in the hot summer. So, I guess I can agree you can always use the choke at initial cold start. The choke is designed to be a “cold start” warmup aid. It’s not designed to be a “dial a jet” mechanism to create proper air/fuel mixture when the bike is up to operating temperature. The choke has a “run position” (off). When the carb is jetted and tuned correctly, the choke should be in the RUN position while riding. If you think you are also running lean with the choke 1/2 open, I think you are mistaken. If anything, it would create an overly rich condition once the bike is up to operating temperature. I think you are mistaking a rich bog for a lean bog when you say the rpm’s hang (I’d need to experience this first hand to better understand this description). That said, it is highly unlikely you are running lean with the choke on. It’s contradictory to what the choke is designed to do (enrich the fuel mixture when it’s cold and the bike needs extra fuel to warmup and get going). Afterfire (backfire thru the exhaust) is caused by unburnt fuel entering the exhaust header. It mostly only happens on deceleration. It’s counterintuitive that the “white spacer mod” that enriches the low midrange fuel mixture alleviates afterfire on deceleration. That brings us to the “transient enrichment valve” (TEV). The TEV is designed to address afterfire. In a perfect world, it would always do its job, but it’s not 100%. Tinkering with the TEV spring (spring length, spring weight) has also been tried with mixed success to alleviate afterfire by some forum members. More on that in the tech section - but at minimum, clean your TEV (you don’t have to remove the carb to do it, but it’s probably better if you do). Your afterfire is being alleviated because you’ve enriched the fuel circuit (low midrange circuit under high vacuum specifically under deceleration) by using 1/2 choke. It’s contradictory that you think you are running lean using partial choke while simultaneously curing afterfire that’s created by a low midrange lean condition under deceleration (low carb vacuum). |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by 04Savage04 on 05/09/24 at 17:31:55 Its not half open, there are 4 positions I'm on the 1st. Choke is barely on. I installed the dyna today......... not my thing. Entire thing with adapter with clamps for sale. |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by ohiomoto on 05/09/24 at 18:58:05 Don't confuse climate with operating temperature. If engines maintained abient temperatures during their operation the combustion engines wouldn't need chokes and enricheners. EFI systems account for operating temperature. Carburetors expect the user to account for it. It's a thing. |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by ThumperPaul on 05/09/24 at 19:14:35 Not confusing it at all. The EFI example was acknowledging the situation. I stand by my comment that the choke is not designed to be a dial a jet mechanism for normal run operation. It’s for when the climate is cold, AND it works to get the bike up to operating temp faster. It shouldn’t be used as a fix for a carb that’s jetted too lean. |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by 04Savage04 on 05/09/24 at 19:42:04 I am a carb expert and have worked on-rebuilt-modded 100's over the past 50 years or so. Your carb on your bike has no choke. What it has is a variable manual enrichment circuit. Thats why on the 1st notch the bike runs perfectly. A choke is a device that chokes off the opening allowing atmospheric pressure to push more fuel out the jets. Something to think on, engine vacuum DOES NOT pull the fuel out of the carb into the cylinder! Engine vacuum creates a low pressure area and atmospheric pressure acting on the the fuel in the bowl forces it through the jets and into the engine. Do a little test, block off the bowl vents to amost and watch the engine stop running. |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by ThumperPaul on 05/09/24 at 20:05:51 It’s commonly referred to as a choke valve on the stock carb. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on how and when it should be used. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1098869040 |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by 04Savage04 on 05/09/24 at 20:13:58 I understand but its actually another jet system completely separate from the pilot and main. It allows you to richen the fuel mixture without the use of a choke. The farther you pull it out the more fuel and air flow into the engine where is a choke chokes off the air causing atmospheric to push more fuel through the jets. You can see the fuel enrichment is a much better way to meter fuel into a cold engine. Very precise compared to choking the opening off. Also because it is a fuel enrichment circuit there is nothing wrong with using it as aux fuel source as needed. Because it basicly like open the main or pilot more but only temporarily. |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/10/24 at 04:33:41 First off our bikes don’t have a choke, they have an enrichment circuit. The enrichment circuit only affects the pilot circuit. So by running with one notch of the enrichment circuit you are making the pilot circuit richer. Proper jetting would allow this to be the default condition. Secondly, having a richer pilot circuit will have a negligible effect on fuel mileage. Lastly, you should jet your engine for best throttle response, not fuel mileage. |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by ThumperPaul on 05/10/24 at 05:04:09 040E0A000B02060F515753630 wrote:
Well said Gary. Completely agree. Whether you call it a “variable fuel enrichment” circuit or “variable choke”, it’s not intended or designed to modify the air/fuel mixture under normal riding conditions. 04Savage - your blueing exhaust header is a good sign your bike has been running HOT and LEAN quite some time (probably its whole life). While some slight blueing is normal, yours is beyond slight. A light golden color would suggest running a bit cool and rich. While you can use the “fuel enrichment system” to address the mixture while on the pilot circuit and slightly into transition to the needle, your bike will continue to run lean through the mid range on up. Eventually harming the motor. But you being a carb expert, you probably already know that. |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by 04Savage04 on 05/10/24 at 07:49:53 LOL the bluing on the pipe is from the previous owner running out RT80 FLAT OUT with his buddies to a amusement park in the middle of the summer. He was very proud the bike did a little over 90 for quite a few miles. I drive very slow 50mph max maybe 60 rarely. Jetting perfect isn't that important for what I do. I have a new pipe on order. |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by 04Savage04 on 05/10/24 at 13:26:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDsJH1Y9W_U please watch this the pilot got nuttin to do with it. ;D Although the author of this video explains things wrong it is close. Vacuum DOES NOT PULL FUEL IN, it creates a low pressure area and atmospheric pressure acts on the fuel pushes it through jets etc. Its important to understand how this works. So again the fuel enrichment circuit bypasses ALL jets etc and is a stand alone system that can run the engine. Trust me on this I never lie and I'm always right LMAO. |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by ohiomoto on 05/10/24 at 18:34:51 Take two identical engines that have been identically tuned. Let them sit for 24 hrs before warming one of them up for 10 minutes. Shut the engine down and wait 30 minutes before starting both engines. The engines will require different starting procedures or start differently using the same method. Same place, same time, same climate. Different operating temperatures. The cold engine will have a lower idle and slower throttle response. The warmed-up engine will idle higher and be more responsive. Same place, same time, same climate. Different operating temperatures. |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by verslagen1 on 05/10/24 at 19:17:19 383C5B697E696F6D383C080 wrote:
So... you say that atmospheric pressure pushes the fuel up to the choke valve? way above the fuel level in the bowl? you might want to rethink that statement. |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by DragBikeMike on 05/10/24 at 20:52:30 Versy, 04/04 is absolutely correct. It's the atmospheric pressure that does the work. Same holds true for every fuel circuit in the carburetor. The bowl is vented to atmosphere so the pressure in the bowl is higher than the pressure in the venturi and enrichment circuit. The liquid gets pushed out of the bowl and through the fuel circuit to the area with less pressure, in this case, the enrichment passage. The enrichment passage is just a miniature carburetor that runs around the slide to provide additional air to raise the idle speed and additional fuel in correct proportion for cold operation. Atmospheric pressure does the work. |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by ThumperPaul on 05/11/24 at 05:04:35 A Bing carburetor - totally different design carb in the video. As a carb expert, I suggest you do a little homework on the stock carb on our bikes (Mikuni BS40SS). Lots of good information in the Tech Section. In the area he describes as the fuel enrichment system, our Mikuni BS40SS has a Transient Enrichment Valve (TEV) that functions somewhat differently and it’s not part of the “choke system”. Our carbs have a “variable level choke”. If you can put your pride aside as a carb EXPERT, and always being RIGHT, we are trying to help you LEARN about the carb on our bike. If you want to be stubborn, go ahead and keep using the choke feature to enrich the fuel mix. If you want a properly tuned carb, properly rejet it for the correct air/fuel mixture throughout the entire power band. Regardless of how I ride (idling at stop lights, putting around in the midrange, or WOT), I want a properly tuned carb on my bike. Believe what you want about the blueing header, but it takes more than a little hard riding to get the color of your pipe. I’d bet money it’s been blueing a long time (but you nor I, nor the prior owner’s story can prove it). |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by Surviving Philly on 05/11/24 at 09:47:16 Thumper I've been planning on swithing up my jetting for a while to use the larger main on my VM36 -- once I get the clutch issues sorted out I'll make a dedicated post regarding carb stuff. Thanks for the info |
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by 04Savage04 on 05/12/24 at 08:10:37 5F59562A282F2B1B0 wrote:
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by 04Savage04 on 05/12/24 at 08:46:23 0A362B332E3B2C0E3F2B325E0 wrote:
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Title: Re: Found something different today about the bike Post by ThumperPaul on 05/12/24 at 11:39:10 Peace out, no sweat. Ride it on the choke rather than jet it properly. Your bike, your ride. |
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