SuzukiSavage.com - Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas?

Mr 650

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Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas?
Reply #15 - 04/09/05 at 10:57:38

Derek wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:04:

A bizarre observation though is that when I turned off the key, there is another single spark. Is the black box all confused? I don't think this is normal.

Sorta sounds like when points are severely worn out or damaged. They can do the same thing, if they never open, the coil stays energized, & only until the key is switched off will you get that last spark. The box that feeds the coil sounds as if it is not switching the coil properly or at all.
Can not rule out the crank trigger yet as per CPhilip.

Gotta meter?
Check for a signal from the crank trigger, if that appears to change with each rotation fairly normal, then swap the box 1st I reckon.

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Derek

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Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas?
Reply #16 - 04/09/05 at 18:24:32

It would appear that the mystery is gone. The 99% confidence level that it is the CDI has jumped to 100%. Given that I had little to lose, I opened the box, and found that it had not been sealed for some time (little cracks between the two housings). Perhaps the snow, freezing rain, and -30C had taken their toll. The circuit board looked like something from an alien landscape. The resistors and capacitors were barely distinguishable and there was about 5mm (1/4") of solid rust coating most of the board and a few burned components (black marks) to boot. It must have filled with water, froze, then solidified. I took digital photos for posterity, but not sure how to upload them here for your entertainment value. I'm not suggesting to check the sealing on your respective CDIs (if your Savages get wet from rain or washing, but a few pennies of sealant is a mighty fine investment I'd say. By the way, the circuit board is attached to the center piece and if any of you want to open the box to check it out or to reseal it from the inside, you won't disturb or damage the circuitry.

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slavy Serious Thumper Offline smart cars for stupid people Posts: 710 Phoenix, Arizona Gender:	Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Reply #17 - 04/09/05 at 19:17:40 This is a very valuable info. Thx and sorry for the bad news. Check the eBay.
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Savage_Greg Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Don't go around your ass to reach your elbow... Posts: 7844 SW Washington State Gender:	Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas Reply #18 - 04/09/05 at 22:17:47 As Derek said....here is the issue.... This CDI is toast and Derek did his homework. At least we have closure
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Mr 650 Serious Thumper Offline The LS650- Classic style & 4-valve engine Posts: 1389 Mempho Gender:	Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Reply #19 - 04/10/05 at 11:56:19 Greg, I don't believe you are giving up on it so so easy. Don't throw it away. :'( Looks like a single sided board, start replacing the obvious parts, it may work again. It would be good to have a spare. 8)
Back to top	SilverBlue '01,K&N,Snorklectomy,125mm NOS carb, 1/2 spacer & 155, 'Trapp, NC flyscreen, Suzy GelSeat, Osram H4 later..putt. Putt, PUtt, PUTT! 8) HelmetLawsSuck IP Logged

Savage_Greg

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Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas
Reply #20 - 04/10/05 at 12:24:54

Mr 650 wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:04:

Greg, I don't believe you are giving up on it so so easy.
Don't throw it away. :'(
Looks like a single sided board, start replacing the obvious parts, it may work again. Wink

It would be good to have a spare. 8)

Well, it isn't a matter of giving up. More like giving in. There isn't much you can do with a board when the traces are gone too.

Besides, Derek and his CDI are in Montreal....

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Derek

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Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas?
Reply #21 - 04/10/05 at 16:50:27

Did you guys really think that you heard the end of this story (rhetorically stated)?
Greg; Thanks for pasting the picture. I think Savage owners can benefit from my minor tragedy as surely if water got into my factory sealed CDI with only 6,000mi on the bike, then there are others out there with the same fate.
I cleaned up the circuit board and it looks not too bad actually. Seems like only the two main resistors (top left corner of the picture above) are broken. This is the bottom side of the CDI when it is installed on the bike and where the water pooled. Most of the board is coated with gel-epoxy stuff which may have contributed to a short as it appears to be breaking down (softening). I shall invest a few minutes of time and replace the 2 resistors as soldering them is pretty straightforward if I can match up the proper resistances. The color bars indicating the resistances are mostly cracked and not all there. The board is very simple and can easily be replicated, except for the 3 microprocessors. So, if the microprocessors are not damaged, this CDI will be brought back to life. If that does not work, there is nothing that can be done without re-programming the microprocessors and I will be in the market to buy another CDI.
By the way, does anyone know why Suzuki uses all Mitsubishi electrical components as opposed to Bosch?

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Kropatchek Serious Thumper Offline Why more than 1 cylinder? Posts: 1457 Alphen a/d Rijn Netherlands Gender:	Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Reply #22 - 04/11/05 at 03:29:51 Mitsubishi is closer by. Kropatchek
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sluggo Serious Thumper ModSquad Offline big singles lead, twins follow the pack Posts: 4744 moses lake washington Gender:	Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Reply #23 - 04/11/05 at 21:25:26 HERE'S A LINK TO AN E-BAY AUCTION FOR A CDI http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4542693244...
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WD

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Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas?
Reply #24 - 04/11/05 at 21:42:14

Why outsource? If they can get the parts in their home market, makes sense to me. Wish other manufacturers would follow suit.

There is a bike on the market that has used: Honda/Yamaha (Keihin) , Suzuki/Kawasaki (Mikuni) carbs; all four plus Bosch fuel injection parts; Taiwanese lights, tires, and wires; Toyota and Ford starters; Ford, Chrysler, Japanese plugs; even German engines... and they claim to be "American Made"... assembled, sure, but made all over the world. And that is in the last 20 years. They used to use Jaguar (SU) carbs...
-WD

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Kropatchek Serious Thumper Offline Why more than 1 cylinder? Posts: 1457 Alphen a/d Rijn Netherlands Gender:	Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas? Reply #25 - 04/12/05 at 14:26:53 Look in their accessory catalog. SOME item are specialy marked: Made in the USA. Guess who? ??? Greetz Kropatchek
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Derek

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Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas?
Reply #26 - 04/13/05 at 13:58:11

The 2 CDIs on eBay have different #s than mine and the connector is offset, mine is centered. There must be a couple of different models. I'll be patient
Again, having nothing to lose, I showed the CDI to an electrical engineer. Within minutes of testing he found one of the 3 capacitors in the cluster to be "open" and the internal regulator not to be grounded due to rust buildup. Plust two tired resistors. A number of the solders were hollow with poor connections. So, for a total of 10$ in parts and 1 hr. labor, he will change all diodes, resistors, capacitors and resolder all connections. Also, for all you keener Savage owners or just curious, the schematics for the microprocessors are available online for free at sites like eserviceinfo.com or alldatasheet.com or chipdocs or datasheetarchive.com. Just type in the part number you see on the part and all is available. The schematics are available for many other applications too. I'll give you an update when I get the CDI back in the next few days.
With this minor setback I had time to paint my bike flat black-clear kote...just because.

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Derek

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Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas?
Reply #27 - 04/16/05 at 20:42:10

The CDI works and the Savage started up fine.
One capacitor (20 cent cost) and resoldering a number of connections on the back of the circuit board seemed to solve the problem. Glad I did not have to buy a new part.
The bike started up right away.
It is one peppy little machine.
It is nice to finally see it run (for the first time) so I had to take it for a little ride. I am not dissappointed.
Thanks Greg for initiating the discussion group for this topic and thanks to all you guys who contributed to diagnosing the problem. Your input was appreciated.
I just have to seal the CDI properly and finish assembling a few parts before logging some highway time with the bike.
Derek

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Savage_Greg

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Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas
Reply #28 - 04/17/05 at 06:41:05

Derek wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:04:

The CDI works and the Savage started up fine.
One capacitor (20 cent cost) and resoldering a number of connections on the back of the circuit board seemed to solve the problem. Glad I did not have to buy a new part.
The bike started up right away.
It is one peppy little machine.
It is nice to finally see it run (for the first time) so I had to take it for a little ride. I am not dissappointed.
Thanks Greg for initiating the discussion group for this topic and thanks to all you guys who contributed to diagnosing the problem. Your input was appreciated.
I just have to seal the CDI properly and finish assembling a few parts before logging some highway time with the bike.
Derek

darn, I love it when a plan works out. Great job there, Derek. You have done a first on this board, or any that I know of....you fixed the CDI at the component level.

Congrats to your your engineer friend, too. We might need to keep him on retainer 8)

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Red_Wine

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Re: Derek has an Ignition Problem. Any ideas?
Reply #29 - 04/18/05 at 11:47:45

Derek wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:04:

The CDI works and the Savage started up fine.
One capacitor (20 cent cost) and resoldering a number of connections on the back of the circuit board seemed to solve the problem

Well, that certainly adds another valuable resource to our wonderful community Grin

From now on, we will not have to worry about burnt or deceased CDIs, Derek's friend will be a handy hand... Wink

KTRSD,

RW

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