SuzukiSavage.com - Drill baby drill! Lake Palin growing by the minute

Jerry Eichenberger

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Re: Drill baby drill! Lake Palin growing by the mi
Reply #45 - 05/12/10 at 06:00:36

Midnight -

Thanks for a well thought out reply.

I too am an energy saver. Because we live in a rural area without natural gas, we heat half our home ( the old part) with fuel oil, and the other half (addition put on in 1985) with an electric heat pump.

In winter, we use about 300 gallons total. We keep the temp at 65, max, and wear sweaters. Sweaters are a lot cheaper than utility bills. Same for the heat pump part of the house; set to 65 max.

While Mick likes to give me grief for driving a BMW, it gets 34 mpg. I refuse to drive an automatic transmission, because a manual not only gives me proper control of engine rpm, but also saves a little gas, even though automatics are now getting very close to manuals in efiiciency.

I ride my bike as much as I can in the decent weather, some for the fun of it, some to save wear and tear on my car, some to save gas. But since my job requires me to wear a suit and tie several days per week, motorcycle transportation isn't practical for me most of the work week.

I've preached about trains before. They make sense in Europe where major cities are often less than 100 miles apart. But, American business can't live with train travel from New York to Chicago, or Columbus to Denver or Dallas - you get the picture. Our country is just too large to depend on trains to get us thousands of miles between major centers of commerce.

I agree with conservation. How many people drive dual wheeled pickups at 15 mpg, max? How many of them have a real need for such a vehicle? Darn few. That's one reason I also preach that our gasoline is too cheap. If you want Europe's conservation, the first way to get there is to adopt their prices for gas. $7 or $8 per gallon makes a person conserve; our $3 doesn't. But will you get on that wagon with me and advocate European fuel prices? Few will.

Conservation is easy to preach, but how many of us will bite the real bullet that it takes to accomplish it?

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Jerry Eichenberger
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Midnightrider

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Re: Drill baby drill! Lake Palin growing by the mi
Reply #46 - 05/12/10 at 06:22:14

Jerry its a shame the majority of the American public is too self centered to cut back at $3 a gallon. Looks like its gonna take huge price increases to make them realize this stuff isnt going to last forever. The problem there is its gonna hurt the lower income people and wreck our fragile economy. I'm not really sure what the fuel prices have done to Europe economically, but European countries are smaller and they dont have to transport goods and services as far as we do. This spill has opened my eyes, there is no telling what the long term effects of this disaster will be. Hurricane Katrina is a drop in the bucket compared to the damage this is going to do to the Gulf. Thousands more will be without jobs for years and years. I dont like the idea of giving up gasoline, I'm a red blooded American male who loves to smell burning rubber and nitro. But its time we started thinking of others and future generations.

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Charon

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Re: Drill baby drill! Lake Palin growing by the mi
Reply #47 - 05/12/10 at 06:45:12

"We have met the enemy and he is us." Each of us who removes the white spacer to richen the midrange is wasting a little more fuel. Each of us who buys the V6 instead of the 4 is wasting fuel. Automatic transmissions use more fuel, but over 90% of US cars have them. Each of us who exceeds the speed limit wastes fuel. Even driving at the limit is more wasteful than running slower. Each of us has said, in effect, that getting there a little sooner is more important than conserving. Each of us who luxuriates in a prolonged hot shower wastes energy. Each of us who lives in a larger house than necessary wastes energy and resources. Each of us who leaves the lights or the TV on in an unoccupied room wastes energy. The list can go on and on. Each of us thinks our little bit doesn't matter, but in the aggregate it all adds up. Conservation doesn't start with Government edicts - it starts with each of us. And the result of each of us using energy is a continual effort to find more. The latest oil spill isn't the first, and won't be the last.

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Eschew obfuscation.

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Jerry Eichenberger

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Re: Drill baby drill! Lake Palin growing by the mi
Reply #48 - 05/12/10 at 06:46:16

Midnight -

Another thing the Europeans do is price gasoline well above diesel fuel. Then, you are compelled to consider diesel cars, which today, are just as clean, if not cleaner, that gasoline engines.

We could solve the cost of business transportation of goods very easily - a huge discount for legitimate business use, and a high price for purely personal use. Sure, there would be cheating, but that's a different matter.

All of this is fun to talk about, but Americans would never go for it. Few are as smart about it as are you - most would never consider giving up their V-8 gas engines, pickups, vans, SUVs and all other sorts of wasteful consumption.

And it doesn't really take $7 or $8 gas to get people to save. Back in 2008 when gas went thru the roof, remember how sales of SUVs stalled? My prediction is that just $4.50 to $5 would change American habits very quickly. But yet, when gas does go up, people scream about oil execs being thieves (didn't you make a simialr comment a few posts back?). You just can't have it both ways.

Americans just like to complain, p!ss and moan, but when it comes to paying for conservation, no way.

And oil company (energy company, really) profits have to be viewed as a good thing, to encourage more investment in energy production. Yet again, so many of us like to just b!tch about it, and call them scroundrels for making money that attracts investors to do likewise.

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Jerry Eichenberger
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justin_o_guy2

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Re: Drill baby drill! Lake Palin growing by the mi
Reply #49 - 05/12/10 at 07:07:28

Ive seen some of the smaller, diesel offerings they have access to in You Rupp. Id have me one of them in a flash. O course, someone has to drive a gasoline powered vehicle. Its gotta get used on something. You cant take crude oil & just make diesel. Theres asphalt, naptha, & all weights in between in oil. Some is nastier than other oil, its not all the same.

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Midnightrider

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Re: Drill baby drill! Lake Palin growing by the mi
Reply #50 - 05/12/10 at 08:08:59

Jerry if oil went to $5 a gallon and the profits went to the oil company I would be the first one screaming. This country has too many rich self seeking millionaires who are destoying our way of life. If the extra cost went to developing alternative energy sources I can live with it. If enough emphasis is put on alternative energy we can do it. I fly radio control airplanes. All my planes are electric. Ten years ago that was almost unheard of. More efficient small electric motors and leaps and bounds in battery technology made this possible. Now there are more electric rc aircraft than nitro. The same can be done for personal vehicles if enough emphasis is placed on it. I realise it will be a long time before we can power trains, trucks and airplanes with alternative fuels, but its not impossible.

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bill67 Serious Thumper Offline old tired Posts: 8517 genoa city wisconsin Gender:	Re: Drill baby drill! Lake Palin growing by the mi Reply #51 - 05/12/10 at 08:17:16 Jerry your right on that Oil companies view profit a good thing.The more profit the better the view.The have had the best view for along time now.
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buttgoat1 Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 1042	Re: Drill baby drill! Lake Palin growing by the mi Reply #52 - 05/12/10 at 09:22:09 bill67 wrote on 05/12/10 at 08:17:16: Jerry your right on that Oil companies view profit a good thing.The more profit the better the view.The have had the best view for along time now. thats why I put my 401 k in energy stocks so I can share in the wealth
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mick

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Re: Drill baby drill! Lake Palin growing by the mi
Reply #53 - 05/12/10 at 10:02:47

Charon wrote on 05/12/10 at 06:45:12:

"We have met the enemy and he is us." Each of us who removes the white spacer to richen the midrange is wasting a little more fuel. Each of us who buys the V6 instead of the 4 is wasting fuel. Automatic transmissions use more fuel, but over 90% of US cars have them. Each of us who exceeds the speed limit wastes fuel. Even driving at the limit is more wasteful than running slower. Each of us has said, in effect, that getting there a little sooner is more important than conserving. Each of us who luxuriates in a prolonged hot shower wastes energy. Each of us who lives in a larger house than necessary wastes energy and resources. Each of us who leaves the lights or the TV on in an unoccupied room wastes energy. The list can go on and on. Each of us thinks our little bit doesn't matter, but in the aggregate it all adds up. Conservation doesn't start with Government edicts - it starts with each of us. And the result of each of us using energy is a continual effort to find more. The latest oil spill isn't the first, and won't be the last.

well said Charon, I try very hard to do all the above,but I am guilty of removing the washer, I do drive a 4 cylinder stick shift car,I hate automatic. and I am guilty of speeding,very often,and have two tickets and higher insurance rates to prove it,all the rest I stick to.Now if the price of gas whent up to $5 a gallon that might slow me down a tad.
I find that 55 or 65 mph makes me want to sleep ,so every time I see a nice deserted road I will take her up to 90 or so, that really wakes you up.If every one drove at 65 why would they make cars that do 180 mph ?

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Starlifter

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Re: Drill baby drill! Lake Palin growing by the mi
Reply #54 - 05/12/10 at 12:41:30

"I've preached about trains before. They make sense in Europe where major cities are often less than 100 miles apart. But, American business can't live with train travel from New York to Chicago, or Columbus to Denver or Dallas - you get the picture. Our country is just too large to depend on trains to get us thousands of miles between major centers of commerce." Jerry.

Jerry my friend, you consistently make statements that contradict. You hope for VERY expensive gasoline to discourage use and conserve fuel, and then you say that trains don't make sense in America because the country is too big. So how do you propose that people travel from place to place??? Trains are very very fuel efficient. One locomotive can pull up to 100 cars or more taking all those gas guzzling one occupant cars off the road. Aircraft guzzle fuel, but serve to facilitate cross country or international travel. Who can put up with the costs, delays, and security hassels for shorter trips anyway?

You state that in Europe cities are 100 miles or less apart. So too are the major cities in the eastern half of the US and the west coast.

Today most families are scattered hither and thither around the country facilitating a great deal of traffic for that reason alone. The greyhound bus company two years ago eliminated 2500 small towns in rural and sparsely settled parts of the country. 70 years or so ago the nation was crisscrossed with train service, passenger boats served the great lakes, interurban trolleys. Commuter trolleys and local bus service served nearly every community in the nation.

Yes, jack up the price of gas to European levels and then bring back a fast, clean, efficient, national train service. Indeed one of the reasons that gasoline is so expensive in Europe is because the high taxes on gasoline go toward national transportation systems. Also European drivers are much more of aware of motorbikes, scooters, and bicycles sharing the streets and roads.

BTW did anyone watch the oilslick video through it's entirety?? No comments??

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Jerry Eichenberger

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Re: Drill baby drill! Lake Palin growing by the mi
Reply #55 - 05/12/10 at 12:46:23

Midnight -

Electric cars have a long way to go before they become practical for anything other than short errands. I just returned to my office from a lunch meeting with a client in a town 75 miles away. That was a 150 mile drive on a nasty rainy day that required me to drive with headlights on and wipers working. No way could I have done that in a present technology electric car.

Hybrids aren't the answer either. The batteries are horribly expensive to replace when they wear out, and the battery pack takes up a huge amount of trunk space. Plus, you still have a gasoline engine to pay to maintain.

Diesel is practical today. A VW Jetta TDI will deliver close to 45 mpg, and even a large Mercedes E class diesel will approach 40 mpg. Bring in the smaller European diesels and you'll see close to 60 mpg.

A buddy of mine is also into electric r/c model airplanes. Seems a lot simpler too than flying the old nitro powered ones.

Some day we'll have all of this alternative energy stuff at a practical level, but I doubt I'll live to see it really become the ordinary. In the meantime, I'll remain a vocal proponent of diesel transportation.

JOG remarks that you can't make only diesel, and that's true. But a refinery can modify the process, even right now, to make a lot higher percentage of crude into diesel than they do presently, since they have to make so much of the crude into gasoline to satisfy current demand.

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Jerry Eichenberger
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Midnightrider Serious Thumper Offline Alliance Member Posts: 3244 Winston Salem, NC	Re: Drill baby drill! Lake Palin growing by the mi Reply #56 - 05/12/10 at 12:57:12 Star I watched it, its sad. I also watched this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77pBcf0o444&feature=related If this is true thingy Cheney and BP execs should get life in prison. Major corporations are the enemy.
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Gort

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Re: Drill baby drill! Lake Palin growing by the mi
Reply #57 - 05/12/10 at 13:04:40

Strange how GM came out with a working prototype to the energy crisis 44 years ago, drove it around, and then just gave up on it. Gee, you'd think they would be able to solve its safety issues and downsize the power plant dimensions after 44 years. But then, why would they want to reduce the profit margins of Big Oil? Yes yes, I know....its fashionable to have conspiracy theories these days. Maybe they should have given the design to NASA. After 44 years, NASA would have had it fully road safe AND able to orbit the earth as well.

http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/gm-electrovan.htm

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Jerry Eichenberger

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Re: Drill baby drill! Lake Palin growing by the mi
Reply #58 - 05/12/10 at 13:07:40

Lifter -

I agree with you ( imagine that? ) about trains on the east coast. But I don't live there.

From my office, the nearest big cities are Cleveland and Cincinnati, each about 120 miles away. Next is Pittsburgh and Indianapolis, each about 180 miles away. Go next to Chicago and St. Louis, and we're looking at 350 miles. Beyond there, and we're really into long distances. Dallas is 1100 miles.

Read my post to Midnight - could I have left here, driven to a train station, waited on the train, ridden to another train station, gotten to my lunch meeting, back to the train station, ride back to the Columbus train station, drive to my office, all in 5 hours? No way. Sure, I could take all day and make the same trip by this hypothetical train, and bill my client for 10 to 12 hours rather than 5. You wanna pay that?

Life is much faster paced today than in the age of inter urban cars and great lake ferry boats.

I go to Chicago about once a month for a couple of days. I can actually drive it in the same time it takes to fly by airline, door to door. But the beauty of driving is that when my meeting is over, I'm on the way back home; not heading to the airport to wait 3 hours on the flight. When I go to a smaller town, a couple of hundred miles away, say like Lansing, MI, I can jump in a general aviation airplane, be there in 1.5 hours, do most of a day's business, and be home for dinner. No train could match that.

If you have lots of time, trains may work. But no way for a busy business person transacting business 1000+ miles form home, or even 500+ miles at that.

Next idea?

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Jerry Eichenberger
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Jerry Eichenberger

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Re: Drill baby drill! Lake Palin growing by the mi
Reply #59 - 05/12/10 at 13:11:35

Gort -

That thing's a monstrosity - look at it carefully. Where do you put anything other than front seat occupants? I'd hate to be in it if it got hit from behind and blew up.

Back to the same old thing - it wasn't practical to build it, because at $1 for gas back then (maybe it jumped to $1.50 during the oil embargo then) people just drove their gasoline cars.

Simple; no conspiracy needed or present.

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Jerry Eichenberger
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