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Calling all smart guys... (Read 243 times)
Serowbot
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Calling all smart guys...
07/31/12 at 11:46:40
 
I was thinking about energy storage... (I hate batteries)...

I was thinking about clocks... (there are coiled springs, and drop weights)...

So,.. Say you got a crushed car (3,000lb), and have it suspended by pulleys or chains over say a 60ft well...
Use solar or wind to elevate the weight, and let the weight store the energy...
How much energy could it store?...
How much weight vs depth would be required to store power for an average house?...

Watch this end up being a million lbs, over 1,000ft well... Grin...
Anybody out there good with a calculator?... Huh...
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Re: Calling all smart guys...
Reply #1 - 07/31/12 at 12:49:09
 
Not sure what is so political/religious about it but it is just an energy unit conversion.  The energy is just the force times distance. 3000 x 60 = 180000 ft*lbs.  

231 BTU

0.068KWh

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Serowbot
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OK.... so what's the
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Re: Calling all smart guys...
Reply #2 - 07/31/12 at 13:05:06
 
Well,.. it's just not very motorcycle related...
... and, conservation/ alternative energy is now political...

Anyway... sounds like you need a million lbs in 1,000 ft hole... Sad...
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Re: Calling all smart guys...
Reply #3 - 07/31/12 at 13:30:14
 
377 KWh.  A typical American house burns through about 3 times that every month.  Maybe more if running a 4-ton AC unit in AZ.  Switch to a swamp cooler and get a 3 million pound car and 1000ft hole..  Cheesy  
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Reply #4 - 07/31/12 at 13:43:26
 
or just find a way to make this work:

http://www.beaconpower.com/products/about-flywheels.asp
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Reply #5 - 07/31/12 at 19:13:57
 
I am sorry I splashed cold water on Serowbot's idea. The idea of hoisting a car up a hole (or onto a pulley/derrick system or whatever) is creative thought that should be encouraged.  It is just that it takes a shocking amount of weight and/or height to get a decent amount of potential energy.  Storage systems that use chemistry (conventional batteries) carry the day for now. That doesn't mean they will always.    

A good deal of energy is already converted to electricity, kinda-sorta the way Serowbot suggests, by harnessing the elevation drop of water by hydroelectric systems. The water (at 62.4 lbs/cubic foot) is lifted for free by natural means, either by the tides, or through precipitation and then collecting the energy as it comes through turbines at a dam.  Canadians don't call their electric bill their 'hydro' bill for nothin' Wink
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Serowbot
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OK.... so what's the
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Re: Calling all smart guys...
Reply #6 - 08/01/12 at 09:45:48
 
Cold water is refreshing... Clears my thoughts... Wink...

Okay Boule',... how about hydraulic compression?...
Solar electric motor compresses hydraulic chamber  (maybe some kinda' part/chamber from some industrial piston type dealy...
Energy is stored up all day,.. and is used through the night...
Figure 900K Wh per month,.. 30 per day,.. less than 15KWh storage is needed to get through the night...
30 KWh storage would be better,.. (for a rainy day)...
No dead batteries,..
I think industrial hydraulics are pretty durable and long lasting?...  Undecided...

Whattcha' think?... Huh...
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Re: Calling all smart guys...
Reply #7 - 08/01/12 at 10:44:31
 
How about using solor to heat water to make steam to compress air into a tank, release air to drive a generator to power your system, completly sealed system once the air is used to power generator it is returned to storage tanks....perpetual energy....patent pending.   Smiley

Bot, the problem i see with your idea is which car...some have more drag than others which would slow your system down do to excess wind resistance causing the force times distance model to be scewed so the cable tension would have to be modified to a larger diameter once again causing more drag...then more weight would be required or a deeper hole...if you went to the deeper hole vacuum would then create additional problems meaning more weight bigger cables.....and a pumping system to eliminate the vacuum....meaning more weight would be needed causing more drag...... Shocked.....all of these in and out pumping sounds would cause your right wing neighbors to be angered or jealous..causing them to call the cops.....they in turn would shut your system down........because wingers dont like science!!.......is Boule happy now?   Smiley    Time for a cold 6 pack...... Wink
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Re: Calling all smart guys...
Reply #8 - 08/01/12 at 11:19:50
 
I think 'hydraulic compression' is somewhat of an oxymoron..  that is, liquids don't compress to a smaller volume that could later be 'sprung back', even when the pressure is astronomical.  If you are referring to energy storage by compressing a gas in a tank, see the air car thread.  That method isn't too bad as storage methods go, but as Charon correctly pointed out, energy is lost when the gas heats up due to compression.  That loss of energy is roughly the same as what is lost in charging/discharging batteries.

If you mean some kind of phase-change system where the gas is compressed until it condenses into a liquid (like propane at about 250psi) yes there is energy stored in that compression.  And with a phase change, you could get by with a smaller tank than with a gas that stays a gas at high pressure like CNG.  But then you have the heat lost due to both the compression of the gas AND condensation into a liquid.. everything that condenses and evaporates has a heat of condensation/evaporation which would have to be harnessed somehow or it would be lost.  In the case of propane, butane, or any flammable liquid-to-gas... might as well burn it.  Wink
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OK.... so what's the
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Re: Calling all smart guys...
Reply #9 - 08/01/12 at 14:15:19
 
Darn.. I give... Grin...

I still hate batteries... there's gotta' be a better way...
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Re: Calling all smart guys...
Reply #10 - 08/01/12 at 14:21:07
 
Serowbot wrote on 08/01/12 at 14:15:19:
Darn.. I give... Grin...

I still hate batteries... there's gotta' be a better way...



Biomass energy storage always interested me.

You could store solar energy in the form of biomass (switchgrass, wood, anything really) then use the biomass to heat water and power a steam generator. It is done along the coast from time to time in coal fired power plants after large hurricanes when there are large deposits of biomass debris that need disposing of. could even be done with refuse and probably is in places.
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Re: Calling all smart guys...
Reply #11 - 08/01/12 at 14:58:30
 
Problem is converting from one form to another is very inefficient.
Solar effectively is heat and light, turning it into electricity is bad enough, then turning that into chemical energy is also very bad. However I dont see how turning it into potential energy is any better.
Cool.
Srinath.
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Reply #12 - 08/01/12 at 19:38:15
 
Sew;
Put our political differences aside for this topic…

When I worked for the carbon fiber company, one of my customers was NGK, yes, the spark plug people. They make an energy storage system using molten sodium and sulfur. It uses a tube made from something called beta aluminum which looks more like porcelain than aluminum.

Another company I sold stuff to used an electrolyte solution of a material called vanadium;  the Vanadium Redux battery. Fluid flowed back and forth and electrons were exchanged across a medium. They were designed to be used in remote areas for telecommunication equipment. Solar panels kept the electrolyte  charged.

Other companies are now trying to generate electricity using floating cylinders in the ocean that use the tidal waves to generate electricity. There was a company making a generator that went into a small stream.  Then there are the flywheel companies and dead weigh companies like the car suspended over a hole.

However, as hard as they’ve worked, no one’s come up with anything yet that generates electricity the way you’re describing, efficiently enough. I have to believe one day, someone’s gonna stumble upon a way to make enough electricity to power maybe ½ an average household’s electricity demands and in a format someone with a little extra land can install. Personal windmills have not worked yet and with as much work as been put into them, not sure they will. Something else is out there.
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Re: Calling all smart guys...
Reply #13 - 08/01/12 at 19:50:25
 
This is funny; I posted that reply and started doing some reading and ran into this article along the same lines of this topic. Yea, it brings politics into it, but I guess that's inevitable...

Al Gore published a book, made a movie, and won a Nobel Peace prize for his thesis on global warming.  The unfortunate thing is he then entered into the venture capital world and brought upon us expensive Betamax technology such as the Fisker Automobile and the Bloom Energy Fuel Cell.

Had Al stopped at the movie or just winning the Nobel prize he may never had to face the most fundamental laws of thermodynamics that unfortunately for him, his investors, his political party, his Washington friends, and the US tax payers as a whole disproved his whole notion that cheap electric cars would proliferate and cheap electric power for these electric cars would be generated in his fuel cells.

Making a movie does not require coming face to face with the realities that Lord Kelvin and Mr. Carnot contemplated 160 years ago when they first realized that thermodynamics is the real inconvenient truth and that not all heat becomes useful energy.

Al never studied thermodynamics, and he thought that his clever VC friends, his Washington Department of Energy (DOE) friends, and his millions of fans would simply allow the Fisker automobile to come down in price by riding a massive learning curve in reducing the cost of modern batteries. Al also thought the solid oxide fuel cell that his Bloom Energy company was to produce would also experience a massive learning rate.  Well neither the batteries nor the fuel cell had a hope of having any massive learning rate.

I learned thermodynamics while at Iowa State University and I wrote academic papers on the subject. I wrote a book that is university text at almost the same time Al was winning acclaim for his book and his matters green.  A few thousand university students and a few hundred laypeople have read my book and learned the fundamental yet inconvenient truth that the second law of thermodynamics allows nothing to come for free.

I reached out to the US Senate to plead with them based on thermodynamics that much money would be wasted on lithium ion batteries and on fuel cells.  My testimony had to be provided as outside witness testimony as I did not have the political connection and my Congresswoman simply ignored me.  But at least I provided that testimony 30 months ago and foretold how thermodynamics would prevail and much money and time would be wasted.

Fast forward. Bloom Energy may yet see 884 as its fatal number.  Fisker is on its last legs and their Delaware project is Dead On Arrival. Fisker’s battery supplier A 123 is almost out of electrons and has taken on toxic financing. This is after A 123 had already received $129 million in US DOE grants.

Fisker and Bloom lead A 123 by a few months in the toxic financing arena with their association with Advanced Equities, a firm that is now under SEC investigation.  Valence Technology and Ener1 two other US advanced lithium ion battery manufacturers are already bankrupt.

Finally Wall Street has caught onto Tesla being a mirage, and within a year we will all be talking about the $500 million wasted by the DOE on Tesla.

As for me, I can sadly say I told you so, but these numerous examples of rapid and massive waste of taxpayers’ money makes me even sadder as we still import oil from horrible countries. Had Steven Chu really learned his thermodynamics he would have told his boss about the real inconvenient truth. Instead he either intended that the US should fail, or that hope could overcome the second law of thermodynamics. As he won a real Nobel Prize in low temperature physics, he had to know that hope could not prevail, which then leaves me to think he had no interest in the USA formulating and executing a viable energy policy and that he wanted failure as he had no interest in us succeeding.  

Al Gore did not understand the basics of thermodynamics and he is simply a greedy politician who wants admiration from crowds of followers. He and his VC friends are now out of money and time for the junk and expensive technology they promoted.  They are all out of friends and free money from the taxpayers. Their IPOs are postponed or cancelled as Wall Street has learned of the inconvenient truth of thermodynamics. Their only remaining hope is to use pay day loan sharks to keep their green-tech hopes alive.

Ivan Boesky and Mike Milken brought us junk bonds. Al Gore, Kleiner Perkins, and the US DOE brought us junk science. Ivan and Mike had to sit it out for a while. I wonder if Al and Steve will ever be held accountable or they will just manage to blame it all on bad luck or the previous administration.
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Serowbot
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OK.... so what's the
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Re: Calling all smart guys...
Reply #14 - 08/01/12 at 20:00:46
 
See,.. I told ya' this was a political post... Grin...

Here,.. you can install solar to the grid,.. and any excess generated they have to compensate  you for...
... but, I was just wondering about an off grid,... Apocalypto, survivalist kinda' thing...
Of course,.. that's probably not too smart because the full-auto guys will just kill you for your cool solar house...
I imagine being too prepared just makes you the prime target...
Just ponderin'... Huh...
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