Donate!
Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register :: View Members
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
Douuble amputee (Read 188 times)
WebsterMark
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 13880

Gender: male
Re: Douuble amputee
Reply #15 - 08/23/12 at 17:05:18
 
So it is true that his lungs supply O2 to fewer muscles but that also means that they are having to supply more O2 to those fewer muscles than everyone else.

why would that be the case? If he's missing, let's say 10% of the muscle mass of the next person, but with the same lung capacity, why would the reamining 90% muscle mass use up more o2 than the competitor next to him?
The carbon fiber acting as his calfs and ankles are mechanical, they do not use 02. Aren't they just using kinetic energy building up and down each time he puts his weight on them? Am i missing something?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
splash07
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline



Posts: 911
Charleston, SC
Gender: male
Re: Douuble amputee
Reply #16 - 08/23/12 at 22:32:14
 
He still has to create that kinetic energy, so the remaining 90% (im thinking its less than that, probably more like 75%) is having to make up the energy that his calf would have created. He is using the same amount of O2 as his neighbor but just in different muscles.
Back to top
 
 

  IP Logged
WebsterMark
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 13880

Gender: male
Re: Douuble amputee
Reply #17 - 08/24/12 at 06:09:01
 
This is an interesting topic that we might be able to keep politics out of….

He still has to create that kinetic energy, so the remaining 90% (im thinking its less than that, probably more like 75%) is having to make up the energy that his calf would have created. He is using the same amount of O2 as his neighbor but just in different muscles.

I don't think so. Imagine a complete clone of Oscar Pistorius, identical in every way with the exception he has legs, not carbon fiber blades. They are sprinting side x side. Let’s say the carbon fiber Oscar weights 180 lbs and the Oscar with human legs weights 200 lbs. Two things come to mind. 1) the carbon Oscar has less weight his thigh muscles have to carry; 20 lbs less. Less weight mean less work done which means less energy expended which means less o2 supply required to replenish energy supplies. 2) with 20 lbs less muscles to supply o2 to, his full sized lungs have excess capacity compared to regular Oscar. That excess o2 is available for other uses that regular Oscar does not have availalble. Again, all other things being equal, wouldn’t the blood supply of carbon fiber Oscar have more o2 capability?

If you have two motorcycles with identical engines, but one has been stripped of excess weight, wouldn’t the lighter motorcycle be both faster and use less fuel? Doesn’t the same thing apply with Oscar?

I’m trying to figure all this out without resorting to Google. Call it kitchen table engineering…
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Dave
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 18313
Camp Springs, Kentucky
Gender: male
Re: Douuble amputee
Reply #18 - 08/24/12 at 06:35:49
 
I got really mixed feelings about this.....and can see some legitimate arguments for both sides.

I do feel however that the olympics should be for people competing on equal terms.  When you start replacing body parts with fabricated mechanical parts.....it is no longer equal.....one side is going to have an advantage.  With todays technology it may the the one without the mechanical parts.....but one day the advantage will shift as the technology changes.  If blades are acceptable......are wheels acceptable as well?  If blades are allowed for the runners.....are flippers acceptable for the swimmers?

This issue is just too gray for me in the current form.....I would think you would want to keep it more black and white.  Athletes should be competing with their peers......and not with technology.  Obviously for the sports with bikes, sleds, skis, tennis rackets, etc. there is a need for advanced equipment - but for running, jumping, etc. it should not be involved.  
Back to top
 
 

Someday I will be old......But not today!

  IP Logged
splash07
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline



Posts: 911
Charleston, SC
Gender: male
Re: Douuble amputee
Reply #19 - 08/24/12 at 06:47:24
 
You actually make a good point about the weight loss. So if we take that into account I think his O2 use rate will be the same as his almost identical counterpart but his overall O2 used would be lower. I think?

The motorcycle comparison is poor because the weight lost on the bike wasn't contributing to the moving of the bike. In the case of the runner, his calf was. so if the advantage from the weight loss is counteracted equally by the need to compensate for the muscles not there, then the O2 use rate is the same but the overall O2 used is lower for the amputee. If the advantage from weight loss is greater than the compensation, then the O2 use rate goes down. Finally, if the advantage from weight loss is less than the need to compensate will cause the O2 use rate to go up and the overall O2 used to be greater as well. I guess we would have to know exactly what each factor was contributing.

I am guessing since he has been an amputee since 11 months old, he is pretty well adjusted by now and probably has similar O2 requirements as comparable athletes. Someone who is still coping with amputation would be different I am guessing.


I am no MD, this is all speculation of course.
Back to top
 
 

  IP Logged
WebsterMark
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 13880

Gender: male
Re: Douuble amputee
Reply #20 - 08/24/12 at 08:09:52
 
You actually make a good point about the weight loss. So if we take that into account I think his O2 use rate will be the same as his almost identical counterpart but his overall O2 used would be lower. I think?

The way I’m looking at it is all muscles in both runners are operating at 100% of their performance capabilities so all of the individual components required for that peak performance are maxed out. So, if one runner has extra o2 available to distribute to fewer muscles, (because the source of o2, the lungs, are identical)  it would seem his muscles would have an extra amount of one component, in this case, o2. Seems like that could only be a benefit.

The motorcycle comparison is poor because the weight lost on the bike wasn't contributing to the moving of the bike. In the case of the runner, his calf was. so if the advantage from the weight loss is counteracted equally by the need to compensate for the muscles not there, then the O2 use rate is the same but the overall O2 used is lower for the amputee. If the advantage from weight loss is greater than the compensation, then the O2 use rate goes down. Finally, if the advantage from weight loss is less than the need to compensate will cause the O2 use rate to go up and the overall O2 used to be greater as well. I guess we would have to know exactly what each factor was contributing.

Okay, assume part of the weight savings is a lower weight piston. We used to cut pistons sleeves down on old motocross bikes. Now we have lower overall weight plus lower weight in an energy producing component. That’s seems comparable to carbon fiber lower legs. Less overall weight plus less weight in the components to move the body forward.

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
srinath
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

I love YaBB 1G -
SP1!

Posts: 5349

Re: Douuble amputee
Reply #21 - 08/24/12 at 08:32:16
 
The truth is in the workout regimen, not in the race ... so here I can imagine a scenario where the carbon oscar can work out harder and will never hurt his feet, toes, heel ... Remember 25% of all the bones in your body are in your feet (I think, 44 bones out of 206 if I recall), that is a lot of bones to get rid of that wont crop up with some dumb problem or another and hurt your training regimen.

How many times has one of us wrestled a motor out of a bike and screamed obscenities when we set it on our foot ...

I'd say a big advantage in training. Of course he is too good to be in the paralympics ... thus leaving him nowhere to compete where he's par with the rest of his field.

Cool.
Srinath.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Trippah
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

I ride, therefore I
am.

Posts: 2517
central Mass
Gender: male
Re: Douuble amputee
Reply #22 - 08/24/12 at 21:39:38
 
I think it's a bad resposnse to a difficult situation.  Next O will someone with a replcement valve compete, then a compleat hart trans, then heart and lungs....no, once you have been altered surgically (excluding tonsils, appendix et al) I think you should move into a different competition...
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
justin_o_guy2
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

What happened?

Posts: 55279
East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.
Re: Douuble amputee
Reply #23 - 08/24/12 at 21:51:15
 
He didnt win. If it was a substantial advantage, Id expect to see people "injuring" their lower legs & " Having to have them amputated".. Some people will go to any lengths to "win"..
Back to top
 
 

The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
  IP Logged
WebsterMark
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 13880

Gender: male
Re: Douuble amputee
Reply #24 - 08/25/12 at 06:15:24
 
It either didn’t give him enough performance improvement or he didn’t have the talent otherwise to compete at the top level. But… that doesn’t mean the next generation of blades won’t be better and make the difference.  Therein lies the rub.

They’ve now set a precedent that athletes with artificial limbs can compete and they did this based on sympathetic feelings. Athletics at the highest level is cruel and it should always be cruel. It’s a paradox in that it’s the fairest thing of all while seeming so unfair. Casey Martin sued under the American Disabilities Act to ride in a golf cart so he could compete in the US Open Golf Championship. With our  lawsuit happy and blame someone else culture, it won’t be long until a similar ridiculous argument is made.

It was a bad idea to let him compete.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
bill67
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

old  tired

Posts: 8517
genoa city wisconsin
Gender: male
Re: Douuble amputee
Reply #25 - 08/25/12 at 06:35:52
 
Do they make a performance improvement for thingys yet.
Back to top
 
 

william h krumpen
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print


« Home

 
« Home
SuzukiSavage.com
05/11/25 at 01:57:45



General CategoryPolitics, Religion (Tall Table) › Douuble amputee


SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2!
YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved.