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Halvors O2 tuning (Read 1882 times)
Halvor
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Re: Halvors O2 tuning
Reply #30 - 09/02/12 at 00:34:04
 
Hope my measurements are right. But on 20% o2 it pops, and the engine temperature correspond to the values, so it seems to make sense. When shutting throttle for gear shift or engine breaking the o2 runs to lean. If more than 20 it pops. I adjusted it for 18 and it works fine. The mix screw have had no effect on other value measurement.

The carbs are set up a bit different. I have a european model with other settings. My needle has both slots and spacer. Original jets are 125/47,5 , and theres a electric switch on ful lthrottle on the side of the carb. Se previous photo. I think it adjust for earlier ignition?

I believe the reason for the need for big main jet is less vacume and different pulse, together with more air volume. The large decrease in vacume is not present on the other side of the piston by the pilot jet when the piston is closed. Therefore, the situation is not so different for the pilot circuit with a KN? I do not know if it make sense?
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Savage 96, Enfield muffler. Lowered forks. Progressive springs Drag bar. big head light. GL1000 fender. small back light. Black. mini turn lamps, vm36 180-20. o2 sensor ! K&N
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Re: Halvors O2 tuning
Reply #31 - 09/02/12 at 16:53:37
 
What I remember of carb tuning theory is that mixture should be a little richer at idle/off-idle, lean down throughout the mid range, richen slightly again at WOT.

At idle and small throttle openings there's not a lot of O2 and fuel molecules bouncing around in a relatively large space. A slightly richer mixture increases the odds of them colliding with enough energy to combust and release more energy to keep the reaction going. Otherwise the odds fall just a bit short and you get difficult to tune idle, flat pickup off idle, and on a trailing throttle a lot more banging and crackling in the exhaust from incomplete combustion.

Positioning the pilot jet aperture right at the butterfly promotes it seeing a higher vacuum at idle and off-idle, and a lower one at bigger throttle openings. It sees some of the high vacuum from the engine side of the butterfly at idle/off-idle, and that drops off as the throttle opens and vacuum both sides of the butterfly even out.

The standard pilot jet on my 2005 was definitely too lean. Going up one size hot it right - I can't remember whether that's 50 or 52.5.

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Re: Halvors O2 tuning
Reply #32 - 09/02/12 at 18:54:38
 
Those numbers do not look like O2% to me. They look more like pounds of air per pound of fuel (actually, any unit of mass). 14.7 is nominally correct, varying slightly with the composition of the gasoline. Smaller numbers are richer; larger numbers leaner. Rich mixtures do not burn all the fuel, because the amount of air is inadequate. Lean mixtures do not burn all the air.

When I flew Cessna 150/172 airplanes, they had a mixture control. At altitudes below 3000 feet, the mixture was set full rich for takeoff. This is too rich, but is deliberate. The excess fuel does not burn, but it evaporates and absorbs engine heat. The engine is "fuel cooled" during takeoff. Once reaching altitude the throttle is set to the desired RPM, the mixture is slowly leaned until the engine runs rough, then richened slightly. On those aircraft with Exhaust Gas Temperature gauges, they were leaned until the temperature reached maximum, then richened till the temperature dropped 25 degrees.

Later, some experimenting was done on airplane engines for electronic ignition and such. It was found that as the mixture was changed, the high temperatures moved. At ideal mixture, cylinder head temperatures were highest. As the mixture leaned, the cylinder head temp dropped and the exhaust temperature rose. Apparently, the leaner mixtures burn more slowly, so are still burning when the exhaust valve opens, allowing more flame to pass the exhaust valve into the exhaust system. Bear in mind, these are air cooled engines running at high power settings, around 2400 rpm.
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Re: Halvors O2 tuning
Reply #33 - 09/03/12 at 03:14:28
 
Interesting stuff, Charon
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Re: Halvors O2 tuning
Reply #34 - 09/07/12 at 05:19:40
 
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/students/solo/special/mixture.html

If this works, it is an article on mixture control on airplane engines. It does mention automobile engines, and the information applies to motorcycle engines as well. It mentions the temperatures and burning rates of both lean and rich mixtures.

Airplanes are an interesting application, because they are about the only place where there is an operator-controlled mixture adjustment. And unlike automotive use, the engines are usually operated at relatively constant speed and relatively high power output.
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Re: Halvors O2 tuning
Reply #35 - 09/07/12 at 06:43:19
 
Relatively high power output?  Yes, everything is relative.  In aircraft engines, even at WOT, they have low power.  The best a C150/c172 engine can do is maybe 0.5 hp per cubic inch, and even at that, they are only turning mid 2000 rpm.

If one of our bikes was operated in those parameters, we'd see 20 hp at 30 mph,... nowhere near full throttle.  I would think an LS650 could run for years constantly at 2500 rpm and 20 hp.

With aircraft, though, getting killed is a big deal, and that kind of thing happens with engine failures.  That is why they are SOOOOOO detuned,.. understressed,.. loafing along, etc.  When they get to altitude, the normally aspirated versions can only put out maybe 60% of their rated hp, as well,... so operating them at full throttle at 8,000 feet is very little strain.  How much strain would our 650cc motor see at 12 hp and 2400 rpm?

Back to the thread,....  This O2 discussion is really fascinating.  I'm looking for a setup like that now.

Curiously, the RYCA setup recommended for the carb and EMGO muffler they use seems to be pretty close for normal ops.  After having sat for over a year, and having the carb rebuilt and setup per their recommendations, the thing started within 2 seconds of pushing the starter button.  On the first few rides, there is no stuttering or popping at all,... just a little ladalaDAladaLAda on deceleration.
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Re: Halvors O2 tuning
Reply #36 - 09/07/12 at 08:04:09
 
I referenced the article to show effects of lean and rich fuel mixtures. Such information seems hard to come by outside the aviation community.

I use the term high power output to refer to operation at power settings of from two-thirds to full power. True, piston airplane engines run at low speeds of around 2400 rpm, but that is to keep propeller tips from going supersonic, and these days for noise reduction. The engines themselves can turn considerably faster, with greater power output. Looking into the airboat community shows that nicely. The boats using direct-drive propellers have either very small propellers or low RPM, while the ones using automotive engines run the engines much faster and use reduction drives for the propellers.

The LS650, operating at speeds in the area of 60 mph, is only making about 10 to 12 hp at its 4000 rpm. It is thus operating at about 1/3 to 1/2 power, depending on how much power it is credited with having in the first place. Most automotive and motorcycle engines operate for most of their lives at low power settings indeed. I suspect few would survive high power operations for any significant amount of time unless seriously derated.

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Re: Halvors O2 tuning
Reply #37 - 09/07/12 at 08:36:30
 
Charon wrote on 09/07/12 at 08:04:09:
I referenced the article to show effects of lean and rich fuel mixtures. Such information seems hard to come by outside the aviation community.

I use the term high power output to refer to operation at power settings of from two-thirds to full power. True, piston airplane engines run at low speeds of around 2400 rpm, but that is to keep propeller tips from going supersonic, and these days for noise reduction. The engines themselves can turn considerably faster, with greater power output. Looking into the airboat community shows that nicely. The boats using direct-drive propellers have either very small propellers or low RPM, while the ones using automotive engines run the engines much faster and use reduction drives for the propellers.

The LS650, operating at speeds in the area of 60 mph, is only making about 10 to 12 hp at its 4000 rpm. It is thus operating at about 1/3 to 1/2 power, depending on how much power it is credited with having in the first place. Most automotive and motorcycle engines operate for most of their lives at low power settings indeed. I suspect few would survive high power operations for any significant amount of time unless seriously derated.




Here's a chart to illustrate your point.



Also, supersonic prop tips are a consideration for noise abatement, but prop efficiency goes way down when the tips start dragging around shockwaves.
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Re: Halvors O2 tuning
Reply #38 - 09/07/12 at 09:19:26
 
Well,... based on Halvors general findings,  I've swapped my #150/52.5 set-up,.. to a #152.5/50...
Hoping for better mpg's and no loss at peak HP's..

Initial riding feels very much the same, and still smooth without popping...
Will have to do some longer rides with more elevation change to see overall...

We're getting a crazy amount of rain here right now...
My street was running 4" deep, full width, for two hours yesterday...(somewhere at the end of that flow, there should be a new lake)...
Huh...
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Ludicrous Speed !... ... Huh...
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Re: Halvors O2 tuning
Reply #39 - 09/07/12 at 18:29:38
 
Halvor wrote on 09/01/12 at 12:37:13:
Paraquat: Interesting. I thought 12-13 was best for power? 14,7 should be best for combustion? THanks for advices.


I did a lot of reading today. No one on the c50 forum knows how to tune by AFRs.
Since the C50's electronics are based off GSXR technology I googled GSXR forums.
Those guys are saying:
12.2 between 80-100% throttle in 4th gear
12.5-12.8 at idle/13.7-14.0 at cruise/13.0 for WOT
12.5 for WOT
12.8-13.0
And Cobra, who sells the FI2000 fuel controller my bike came with, says 12.8

I was using the AEM UEGO when I was trying to get the VM36 dialed in on my Savage but I was shooting for car air/fuel ratios. It appears these bikes like to be in the 12's.

http://www.ronayers.com/ProductDetails/N/7205/SKU/106370
(Because, you know, fuel processos are sold in the Carburetor Tuning section of Ron Ayers)
Quote:
Fi2000R is adding more fuel to the air/fuel ratio approximately 14:1; green and yellow lights - these lights will be on in unison when throttle is open more quickly and air/fuel mixture is approximately 12.5:1; red - light comes on and stays on as long as the Fi2000R follows the fuel curve while adjusting to approximately 12.8:1 air/fuel ratio, which is where the engine will produce its best full-throttle power

and even taht seemed like a chore. I can't get someone to come out and say "This is the target AFR you tune for"

BUT... that's a C50. I imagine the Savage isn't far off.


--Steve
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Re: Halvors O2 tuning
Reply #40 - 09/08/12 at 01:13:17
 
Hello, new 170 main + pilot 50. I have had only a short test run.  I may adjust numbers later

Idle + 3/4ccw =11
Idle + 1/1ccw =10,5
Idle + 1,5 ccw = 10
Cruising 80kmh + 1/1ccw = 12 (+0,5)
WOT 18-20 Grin (nothing happend?????)

I will try to restrict the air flow with a sock over the KN filter. I will go for another and longer test run.
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Savage 96, Enfield muffler. Lowered forks. Progressive springs Drag bar. big head light. GL1000 fender. small back light. Black. mini turn lamps, vm36 180-20. o2 sensor ! K&N
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Re: Halvors O2 tuning
Reply #41 - 09/08/12 at 08:54:48
 
you got the bottom half tuned, try the white spacer mod.
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Re: Halvors O2 tuning
Reply #42 - 09/08/12 at 09:14:20
 
Halvor,.. is your K/N filter oiled?...
It sounds like you're just getting an uncontrollable amount of air at WFO...

When I tried an open air filter a couple of years ago,.. top end performance went way down for me...
I went back to an oiled slip-in K/N in the stock air-box...
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Halvor
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Re: Halvors O2 tuning
Reply #43 - 09/08/12 at 12:32:31
 
yes oiled. I have a theory about that theres not enough vacume. I tried a ladys nylon sock to restrict the kn, but it made little difference. I then tried to change the kn with the original rubber tube for the air box. THis made difference. At WOT the 02 was 12,5 some seconds before in went directly to 18,5.
I will try with a pod filter in the end of the rubber tube. THe big 170 is in  and the sudden change to 18,5 might be a result of to low level of fuel in the carb. I am on PRI.

I will try to make more vacume and maybe insert the 155 main again later. Nothing happened to the WOT o2 value when going bigger than 155.
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Savage 96, Enfield muffler. Lowered forks. Progressive springs Drag bar. big head light. GL1000 fender. small back light. Black. mini turn lamps, vm36 180-20. o2 sensor ! K&N
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Halvor
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Re: Halvors O2 tuning
Reply #44 - 09/09/12 at 02:32:31
 
Tried to restrict kn filter with tape. Have allso tried with original rubber tube. But it is lean on WOT. The lean condition has a time delay.

It feels like theres not enough gas entering the carb. I will open the bottom, place it on pri and see how it flows . Maybe this have been the reason for lean WOT all the time?

Cruising and idle o2 is the same for all air filter modifications.
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Savage 96, Enfield muffler. Lowered forks. Progressive springs Drag bar. big head light. GL1000 fender. small back light. Black. mini turn lamps, vm36 180-20. o2 sensor ! K&N
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