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Add on fuel filter restriction issues (Read 741 times)
Oldfeller--FSO
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #15 - 11/04/12 at 14:13:21
 
 
Looks like Autozone is sourcing far eastern fuel filters to replace their Frams and haven't gotten all their web stuff straightened out yet.

The  FF1-4DL  looks to be a Fram G1 replacement, but not with the nice clear Fram polycarbonate bowl.  

The vendor is called "Import Products".

Filter paper "goodness" from an oriental copy, who knows?  


Import Products FF1-4DL   12 pleats visible in pic


=================================================

    20 pleats visible in pic

FRAM G1


=================================================

In retrospect, the larger 3/8" hose is looking better and better to me as the clamps we use can  make it conform down to 5/16" fairly easily on the petcock and carburetor nipples.   The key point being the filter nipple IDs would not present the "restriction point" to the whole system any more.  The stock metric petcock nipples and metric carburetor nipple would present the least ID restriction in such a system.




You know, I feel really funny calling FRAM anything "the good stuff" because all my life it has been the poorest performing of all American vendor's products.  

But still, compared to unknown oriental stuff, I guess beggers can't be choosers ....



=================


PS   I fixed up the Filter Tech Thread and I am waiting to see Charon's filter flow analysis at 2-3 inches of system drop to see what is "most commonly seen" at a minimal head pressure.

2.5 gallons for 100 miles = .025 gallon per mile = 0.4 cups per mile at 16 cups per gallon.  

This is our grand average fuel consumption per mile, 0.4 cups per mile.

When we go "normally" it is at about 60 miles per hour -- that is at a mile a minute effective rate.

0.4 cup fuel consumption per minute is supposedly equal to about a mile in a minute at our grand average consumption rate, so a 1 cup per minute filter pass rate would allow you to go at least as fast as a Savage can possibly go.


==========================

Now Dave has done some pass rate work on a Raptor petcock.

Dave wrote on 10/23/12 at 07:27:02:
When I tested my Raptor it took 2 minutes, 15 seconds to flow a gallon of fuel when in the "ON" position.  



So a Raptor can flow around 7 cups of gas in a minute, so the Raptor isn't a potential issue here.   The stock vac petcock in "ON" position may or may not be an issue as it has dynamic flow depending on engine suction levels.  Let's ASSuME that in Prime position a vacsucker isn't a flow limiter either just to move things along.

So we need a cup a minute throught the filter and the lines .....


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« Last Edit: 11/04/12 at 17:45:29 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #16 - 11/04/12 at 16:50:39
 
"When you explore the unknown, by definition, you do not know what you will find."

I ended up having more time this afternoon than I expected, so was able to run some tests. My basic setup was an old fuel tank from a Toro SnoPup. It is about 3 1/2" diameter, about 8" long, and holds about a quart. I didn't measure precisely, because I use the same tank for all testing. I don't know if would make a difference, but ambient temperature was about 58 degrees F.

Initial test: hold my finger on the outlet nipple, fill the tank, remove my finger and start my old analog stopwatch. When fuel flow stops, stop the stopwatch. Time, 97 seconds.

Second test. Attach the filter (TW FASTEX VISU FILTER) which gave trouble on my CH80 scooter with about 4" of plastic line. Hold the filter upright to allow fuel to fill it. Put finger over outlet of filter, fill tank, remove finger and start stopwatch. Time to drain 88 seconds - less than the unrestricted tank? Repeat and get 86 seconds. Total distance from bottom of tank to bottom of filter, about six inches.

Third test, a Briggs and Stratton filter, PN 691035, which on its packaging says it is for engines with fuel pumps. Time to drain the tank was 74 seconds.

Fourth test, a filter with a UPC of 37049 92399. I cannot remember whether I got it at Walmart or Ace Hardware. Time to drain tank, 70 seconds.

Fifth test, the tank with the 4" of line, but no filter. Time 81 seconds.

The gas was on hand from three or four months ago, and I think it was what Bill would have called "100% pure gasoline." The gas I had used in my scooter was E-10. When the filters dry out I'll get a gallon of E-10 and try again, just in case it makes a difference.

All filters are clear plastic, pleated paper. I am not sure how to go about attaching more than one picture to a post, or I'd do so. But as I have said before, if I have to use a third-party site it ain't gonna happen.
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #17 - 11/04/12 at 17:28:47
 
Charon wrote on 11/04/12 at 16:50:39:
"When you explore the unknown, by definition, you do not know what you will find."

I ended up having more time this afternoon than I expected, so was able to run some tests. My basic setup was an old fuel tank from a Toro SnoPup. It is about 3 1/2" diameter, about 8" long, and holds about a quart (4 cups in a quart) I didn't measure precisely, because I use the same tank for all testing. I don't know if would make a difference, but ambient temperature was about 58 degrees F.

Initial test: hold my finger on the outlet nipple, fill the tank, remove my finger and start my old analog stopwatch. When fuel flow stops, stop the stopwatch. Time, 97 seconds. (or about 25 seconds for our magic cup, which means the tank outlet isn't any pinch point as it can flow over 2x the magic cup a minute rate we say we need)

Second test. Attach the filter (TW FASTEX VISU FILTER) which gave trouble on my CH80 scooter with about 4" of plastic line. Hold the filter upright to allow fuel to fill it. Put finger over outlet of filter, fill tank, remove finger and start stopwatch. Time to drain 88 seconds - less than the unrestricted tank? Repeat and get 86 seconds. Total distance from bottom of tank to bottom of filter, about six inches.   Mebbe you got some flow increasing suction from the extra vertical drop of the filter and the hose, which was mebbe more than the 2-3 inches that the Savage provides for.  Indicates this filter may be fine for the use we plan to put it to, but the test needs to mebbe be repeated at the 2" total system drop level to get a "more real world" figure.

Third test, a Briggs and Stratton filter, PN 691035, which on its packaging says it is for engines with fuel pumps. Time to drain the tank was 74 seconds. Still well over 2x the flow rate we need.

Fourth test, a filter with a UPC of 37049 92399. I cannot remember whether I got it at Walmart or Ace Hardware. Time to drain tank, 70 seconds.  Still well over 2x the flow rate we need.

Fifth test, the tank with the 4" of line, but no filter. Time 81 seconds.

The gas was on hand from three or four months ago, and I think it was what Bill would have called "100% pure gasoline." The gas I had used in my scooter was E-10. When the filters dry out I'll get a gallon of E-10 and try again, just in case it makes a difference.

All filters are clear plastic, pleated paper. I am not sure how to go about attaching more than one picture to a post, or I'd do so. But as I have said before, if I have to use a third-party site it ain't gonna happen.



To get the needed total 2-3" Savage vertical drop you might have to lay the filter and the hose over on their side with the top of the filter just below the outlet point from the tank and the post filter hose length laying over with an additional inch of drop below the bottom of the filter, with the tank outlet point down to lowest hose end point being 2-3" of vertical drop with the filter and the hose bends all being lateral resistance (which is what we really do).

What is your hose size again?   Nipple size on the filters?

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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #18 - 11/04/12 at 17:43:18
 
Checked at AutoZone and the filter package states it is a Duralast FF7144DL universal filter that is made in China.  It has ¼ - 5/16 inlet and outlet on it, you just cut off the ¼ to have the 5/16 I am trying to use.  I have a picture of the filter, but cannot find the instruction on how to get a picture into a post.  

I also checked my fuel tank and I am at about 1/3 full, so that could have some bearing on the issue of flow.  I guess it does not really matter because I need the filter to flow all the fuel in tank to be useful.  Wondering about the Chinese filter media now.  Still cannot get over the flow just pouring gas into the filter verses from the petcock.
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #19 - 11/04/12 at 17:49:23
 
Grayowl wrote on 11/04/12 at 17:43:18:
Checked at AutoZone and the filter package states it is a Duralast FF7144DL universal filter that is made in China.  It has ¼ - 5/16 inlet and outlet on it, you just cut off the ¼ to have the 5/16 I am trying to use.  I have a picture of the filter, but cannot find the instruction on how to get a picture into a post.  

I also checked my fuel tank and I am at about 1/3 full, so that could have some bearing on the issue of flow. No, not really.  Charon is going to redo some testing at effectively "last drop in the tank" fuel heights.   I guess it does not really matter because I need the filter to flow all the fuel in tank to be useful.  Wondering about the Chinese filter media now.  Still cannot get over the flow just pouring gas into the filter verses from the petcock.    Yar, and what sort of petcock is that, BTW?


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When you save your post the picture is saved with it.
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #20 - 11/04/12 at 17:51:48
 
The outlet of my tank was (unmeasured) about 1/4" ID. A 5/16 hose fits nicely on the nipple, but I used a 1/4" ID and forced it on. One of the filters was a 1/4 and 5/16 combined size; the others were nominally 1/4".

I used 4" of tubing to give me room to bend the filter "up" so as to allow it to fill with gasoline before I pointed it down for the test. As I said, the total drop or head was about 6" from the bottom of the tank to the bottom of the filter, with the filter and hose more or less in a straight line pointing down. Total drop from the top of the tank to the bottom of the filter would have been no more than 10". There was no line attached to the outlet of the filter - I just stuck it into the collection tank. The S40 head varies from about 12" with a full tank to about 4" with an empty tank.

I admit to being somewhat surprised when the second test (the first filter test) resulted in a shorter time than the unrestricted tank. I attribute it to the additional "suction" of the longer drain line, and that is why I ran the final test with the 4" line but no filter.  My testing is by no means rigorous, and I welcome constructive criticism.  

This should be the filter which gave trouble on the scooter.

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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #21 - 11/04/12 at 17:58:59
 
This should be the Briggs and Stratton filter.
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #22 - 11/04/12 at 17:59:57
 
And this is the third filter.
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #23 - 11/04/12 at 18:02:46
 

Ain't any criticism there -- if you do any more testing let's intentionally screw it up just as bad as any newbie can possibly do.

(just to be real world)     Wink

Start out with an empty dry filter and lay everything on its side at the hose length and with the sideways measured 2-3" total system drop and let the fuel flow down to fill everything up as much as it ever will, finger stop it with your finger then start the stop watch and fill the cup.  

Might as well time how long a cup takes as that's what we really need, a cup in a minute.   That way you can get a couple of tests out of a tankful and you can see it the flow rate really changes very much at the bitter bitter end of a tank full.

Makes the math & reporting easier, this way.  

Plus I want everyone to really see that "filling everything up" totally isn't really needed -- it is a gravity flow situation just like water falling down from one puddle to the next ....    

It <filled suction that is> helps some, sure -- but to make a cup a minute I bet it isn't needed.

===================

That filter that was on the scooter, does it use "sideways" pleated paper or  something else to do the filtering?    Hard to tell in the picture, really.   Looks sideways to the construction of the rest of the filters though, with not nearly as many pleats available.
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #24 - 11/04/12 at 18:15:20
 
All three filters use pleated paper, but none of them gave specs as to their filtering abilities (xx microns). When I put the filter on the scooter, the filter didn't seem to ever really fill up. It is hard to judge, because the body panels on the scooter hide the filter from view. I guessed that was because there really wasn't any way for the air in it to pass back up the fuel line into the tank. That is also why I pointed the filter "up" for my testing. When I removed the filter from the scooter, I blew through it and noticed a distinct resistance. Today, when I got through testing it, I blew through it and didn't notice the resistance. I plan to try it again with known E-10 and see if it makes a difference. I am not completely sure what the fuel was that I used today, since I cannot even remember for sure when I bought it.
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #25 - 11/04/12 at 18:18:20
 


When you are done and have picked out the best of the litter, let it dry out good (or blow it dry with compressed air) and then intentionally wet it with water and see how much gas it will pass then.

(bet it doesn't do too well if water gets into the filter paper fibers ahead of the gasoline).
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #26 - 11/04/12 at 18:24:05
 
The one I have looks amazing like the third one Charon tested and worked great.  Here is the one I was trying to use without much luck.

Thanks Charon for the testing you did and both Oldfellow and your input on this. I am losing my mind on why it will not flow out of the petcock in prime, which is a totally the stock vacuum petcock at this point.  From what I have seen the prime position is total free flowing depending on the float valve to keep it from running into the engine or do I have my facts wrong ?  The diaphragm does not come into play except on the ON and RES positions right.
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #27 - 11/04/12 at 18:25:14
 
Here is the filter itself.
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #28 - 11/04/12 at 20:24:58
 
Prime = sittin on the bike, grabbing the lever & swinging it to the rear of the bike. If you arent gettin gas like that, sumpins RongGG
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Re: Add on fuel filter restriction issues
Reply #29 - 11/04/12 at 21:08:14
 

Justin, it is just my own personal bias showing up again -- but how is he to separate the various failure modes of the vac petcock system from his attempts to get a fuel filter set up working correctly?

The only way I can see is to get the vac petcock out of the way ....





Greyowl,  your Prime position isn't a separate passage, it is a little spring finger lifting up the diaphragm and little valve seat (using the same passages).


If your vac petcock is getting bubble gum rubberitus, what makes you think Prime is operating correctly?


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