Thanks Web. First time I've ever been called a babbling, snotty, cave-dwelling, nearsighted, ignoramus, barbarian.

No worries Midnight. PS: it only hurts the first time!

WebsterMark wrote on 09/24/13 at 19:59:19:


Don't forget to smile !  

...

Now, seriously, folks... Obama is not bad, from a European perspective, he's just trying his best to balance social justice towards the lower classes (which is not socialism, I insist) with keeping the fat cats happy and well fed.

And for those of you who don't see it this way... do you maintain your bike ? Yes ? Do you feed your dog ? Yes ?
If schools, Police and Fire dept. are free (i.e. paid by public moneys) how is it that in this day and age the health system is essentially private ? Because that's the European perception.
I can understand the village doctor having to ride his buggy one full day to a remote Nebraska ranch in 1876, and anothe full day back to town, and demand to be paid for his time, but these days?
If the system expects me to work and maintain myself, and to pay my taxes, if the system provides protection against crime and fire, howcome it doesn't provide protection against illness ?
Europe thinks along these lines, from Iceland to Greece and malta, it's the same fundamental principle north to south, east to west.

Anyway, I disgress.

You want to talk Italian politics ? Fine by me.

What Berlusconi tried in 1992 was US-style liberalism in a nation which still boasted a full 32-33% of the polls to be affiliated to the IT Commubnist party, which - if you look at figures closely, was a mere puff behind the Christian Democrats.

Whereas you in the US crank it up between elephants and donkeys, we had "the old Partisan Liberators!" (sic!) wind up the masses calling for the Proletariat Revolution...
...and if Bob Dylan, John Lennon and Joan Baez were popular in the '60s in the US, you have no idea what they obtained when mixed with Communist propaganda in 1970s Italy! The Church even dubbed Lennon and the Beatles as satanists...  

Singers like Guccini - Vecchioni - DeGregori praised the resistance and chanted praise of student marches and protests against "the Establishment".
We came to the point where even waving your own Flag was considered right-wing and nostalgic - hence, fascist.
Only the military were left to Flag-bearing cerimonies - which only added to the "flag = fascist" theorem.
By 1980, living in Italy was living in some kind of left-wing Chile   you could say whatever you wanted, provided it was leftwing...

Thnigs gradually changed for the better, yet not good enough.
Berlusconi has proven quite a Statesman, doing business with Russia in a way that left all other European Nations speechless.
We pay russian gas for heating less that the French, Germans or Belgians - hence, they hate us.
We did business with nations that until the previous governments were still attached to the old line of conduct - again, a businessman turned politician was successful where professional politicians and diplomats had failed.
The result? An ever increasing number of "secret investigations" by the Judiciary that was unheard of anywhere else in the world.
Oh, they got him in the end... for minding his own business in his own home, for example, with zero witnesses and ridiculous charges against him, just like during the Inquisition.
They got him for being the CEO of a business that did business, without citing any other VPresident, Executive Director or even a business lawyer (the kind who actually writes down the contracts)... as if he had done everything himself.

Seriously, now: can you imagine the US Republican Party going for President Carter with the allegationas he had, maybe, possibly, used a banned pesticide in his peanut plantation ?  

Amen Jerry; amen.......

I am NOT a conspiracy theorist like JOG, but I believe the media and entertainment culture's one party takeover is giving too much influence to, those whom Rush correctly calls 'low information voters'. On those rare occasions when I watch the network news, it's laughable what passes as being so important it makes the cut to be included in 22 minutes of primetime broadcast.

You're right; how Romney didn't win going away is a mystery to me. How anybody can mention Hilary Clinton and President in the same breath is staggering. Why is Nancy Pelosi even allowed to live in this country? I'm in Philadelphia right now; there are several precincts here that went 100% for Obama despite the fact unemployment was higher than it was 4 years previous. How is it that the entire population of a couple of voting districts are so stupid that they voted for the guy a second time? Was it 100% race based? I don't think that's all of it. I think it's this handout mentality combined with an utter lack of ability / desire to discern the truth.  

When you sit down and think about all this, it's depressing. We are going the way of Italy, Greece and Europe in general, minus Germany. (at least for a little while)

We are going the way of Italy,

no offense Mpes. but Italy is irrelevant in today's world right now as are many other former proud European nations that have given in to the Euro and all that implies (regardless if it's their chosen currency or not)

If the US becomes irrelevant; the sh!t will hit the fan big time. The world does not want China calling the shots.

JOG -
People have to vote sensibly, and not throw votes away by voting for some 3rd party or similar candidate who doesn't have a snowball's chance of winning.
Those who voted for Carter in 1976 just because they wanted a "decent man", like my in-laws did then, got what they deserved - Jerry Ford was not Nixon.
Those who voted for Ross Perot in 1992 elected Bill Clinton.  On the other side of the spectrum, those who voted for Ralph Nader in 2000 elected GWB.
Forget mis-guided "statements" by voting for these  non-winners - in most instances, you are helping elect the person with whom you disagree the most.

WebsterMark wrote on 09/25/13 at 06:45:08:

Go ahead and offend him Web. If he ever comes back over here I'm going to throw a rock at him   LMAO   We're too chicken sh!t to stand together and fight. We're too dam dumb to stick together and do something about the situation. There's not enough difference in the parties to worry about so why argue with each other while Washington has become a haven for dishonest crooked liars who care only about themselves. We're doing exactly what they want us to do while they're getting richer and laughing their a$$es off. Get use to it getting worse because they're keeping us busy arguing and fighting amongst ourselves. You and I disagree a lot but does it really matter in the long run, hell no. If you and Star both get what you want nothing much is gonna change. The real terrorist are in Washington and until we start booting them out and scaring them nothing that really matters is gonna change. Our jobs are gone and probably will never come back because of Nafta and trading with the Chinese. We had rather spend our money overseas and make a few US contractors rich than build decent roads, schools, bridges, affordable higher education. The major corporations and lobbyist run our lives and take our money and jobs. Once you get in with the politicians and big boys the laws of the land don't affect you. Web you and Jerry can say Romney would have made it better but he wouldn't. I watched all three debates and Romneys and Obamas foreign policies were carbon copies. That's the only time they didn't argue. As much as I wanted to I couldn't keep my bros and their families up when they were out of work and trying to find work. I would slip them some money when I could but the bottom line is I couldn't afford it. This country will never learn that, never. We should grow some nads and tell Washington we're through spending money overseas. We should add some amendments to the Constitution, not be trying to take them away like Obama. The amendments should give the people more power. The power to prevent wars, the power to impeach Clinton for signing Nafta instead of impeaching him for a BJ. (That's how stupid we are) The power to impeach Congress if they try to screw us which they're doing a dam good job of. I believe in national healthcare but Obama's plan should be sh!tcanned. Medicare isn't all that bad, I like my Blue Cross. Copy something that works instead of inventing a trainwreck. Instead of acting like Congress (which is what they want) we need to concentrate on what we agree on and do something about it. Someone on the forum said Congress was a good idea but it is corrupt and no longer works. Amen. Our political system no longer works, its put us on a sinking ship and instead of fighting amongst ourselves we all need to get together on the high side of the ship and right it.I thnk its way past time to quit worrying about the rest of the world and get our own house back in order. Web I don't know exactly what you're into right now but if things don't change you'll be traveling overseas to sale your products. We've got enough bombs,missles,aircraft and ships to turn the whole world into a piece of glass many times over and Congress wants more. Could it be the defense contractors are controlling a large part of Washington. Instead of building war machines we don't need send them to Germany and Bavaria and educate them on wind and solar power. As Jog says voting is pointless and he's 90% right. What little bit changes is usually for the worst. Our foreign policy and defense weapons is the biggest piece of the pie and the most useless. If we cant look after our own we don't deserve to be #1. If we withdraw from the UN and mind our own business the rest of the world will leave us alone. If you took a vote right now I'd be willing to bet 70% of the country would want nothing to do with the UN.
Our useless wars accomplish nothing except putting us deeper in debt. We put a new leader in and 10 years later we're right back, trying to get more oil instead of concentrating on making our energy supplies self sufficient all the while killing and maiming our young men. Foreign policy,wars, weapons we don't need, all of that is taking our money and putting us deeper in debt. The only way we will ever become a decent country again is to stick together and quit fighting over the petty stuff, we can straighten that up later. We got to scare Washington by giving more power to the people and quit supporting and blowing up the rest of the world or you low lifes can stand in the unemployment line like we've had to. Its the 21rst century and I still believe in computer voting, Every 6 monts everyone in their own state should vote whether their representative's are doing their job representind the people who voted for them and doing whats best for the country. If they receive less than a 51% rating tell them to go stand in the unemployment line. Where would we be right now if we told Clinton he was fired if he signed Nafta? Walmart might be selling some American goods. Our major car companies might have 2 or 3 times as many employees.What would happen if we could convince one Congressman to demand we quit selling our oil overseas. All the rest of them would know they would be unemployed if they voted against it. Americans including myself forget a lot in four years and then you have them that's gonna vote for their party no matter what but I would hope they have enough sense not to vote themselves out of a job. We've got to take away some of Washington's power and restore the power to the people.

As for the American automobile industry, we are simply two separate universes:
as long as Detroit produced 2-ton, single digit mpg road barges and gas was 25c/gal., all was well, the VW Beetle was cute and the Porsche 911 was "that german thang I cannot outrun on twisty roads".

But come the 1980's...   For documentation, I simply chose the "entry level" versions of the most famous US sports car, the Mustang, and compared it to the European equivalents to the eyes of the foreign buyer:

- 1982 Ford Mustang: 5.0 L V8 (302 cu.in) with a whopping 157 HP  



- 1982 BMW 635: 3500cc 6L with only 215 HP



- 1982 maserati BiTurbo_ 2000 V6 Turbo i.e. with 180 HP



- Mercedes-Benz 280CE: 2800cc 6L with 175 HP



- Porsche 944: 2.5cc 4L, 150 HP (yup! from a 4-pot!)



In other words, same size, often less weight, half the engine for just as many (if not more) HP, and better mpg.

I purposefully left out the Ferrari Mondial, a 4-seater coupé, 3.o L V8 with 240 HP, THAT would have been cheating...  





So please, Midnight, spare yourself the thing about the Automobile Industry: it took Detroit quite some time to realize they had to go back to the drawing board.
Thay have, and now Detroit produces some spectacular competitors to the European counterparts: similar engine size, similar body size, even the prices are comparable.
But Detroit was going the same way the UK car industry in the 1980s, the wrong way.
It got saved alright, by corageous entepreneurs who were willing to take on the challenge.